delet... Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 They're all American Jews for sure. But if they're Israeli citizens, it means they've done their stint in the Israeli military. And just because they're Americans doesn't mean that they are any less representative of Israeli thought. the american immigration to israel is the most ideologically motivated, most zionist. anyone with half a clue would know what kind of answers he would get from such crowd with such questions so are you trying to make the claim that this is not representative of a lot of people's opinions who live or visit israel? you make it sound like its an extreme minority indoctrination from an early age ... you can't blame the people ... it's those on the security council that abstain .. that we can blame .. yair .. or sumin... then ytou argue .. can't you see the obvious misalignment of morality .. well can i argue that from a clear outside perspective ... hell no ... so let muddy the waters with some of dem damn katuqaz .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siegecow Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 speaking of fashion, it is quite funny seeing people wearing chuck taylors and designer jeans hurling rocks and hitting eachother with sticks What did you expect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delet... Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 eneewae ... we all love each other in the watmm sense .. and persia is an amazing location that hasn't attacked anyone in hundreds of years ... so why worry about the place .. when we've got plenee troubles at home .. to whine aboot .. // end thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenGOD Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 that's weird ... when i was waiting for my post edit to be uploaded .. a message appeared on the cursor stating .. "if you don't like it kindly fuck off" .. may i inquire wtf .. ?? conspiracy it's odd that i find it odd that someone mentions this ... i wrote it opff to be something that joy and chaos wrote as a mind fuck for when the posting is slow ... but still .. it's odd... and at least you mentioned it so that i dont' have to feel so weirded out by odd things one see's naoanxenonxeenetmiefrend It's the message that pops up over the sig seperator. Joyrex or Chaos put it there because people were getting their panties all knotted up over one of the previous sig seperators... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delet... Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 see there yue ar .. tar .. // end thred .. ;-] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR4 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 what evidence do you have of the US planning it? Surely they welcome the idea of the current president being removed from power...but I fail to see how it was "manufactured" if most of the Iranian public wanted this done years ago. what evidence do you have that 'most' of the iranian public wanted this done years ago ... this country regularly has elections .. and a wide swath of it's public has a long history of animosity to US meddling in it's affairs ... so regularly they vote in people that stand for iranian independence in the world ... as for trying to prove what i say to you .. i don't feel like writing up the encyclopedia of knowledge into a thread that would be necessary to convince you of US machinations in the affairs of other countries .. if you haven't noticed that already .. great ... have fun with that ... but really .. i'm way beyond bothering with the justifications ... maybe there needs to be a leftwing factbook generated .. like the cia one .. it would save us the hours involved correcting the world of it's ignorance having a searchable url to point to ... heh ... i love your condescending snarky attitude as of late Dleet. open any news mag, journal, or search nexis-lexis database for leftist or democratic movements in Iran, they didn't just spring up now, they have been fermenting for the past twenty years if not longer... the reason they are coming to full fervor is if anything, their current president is attracting more attention towards the nation...thus giving him and the Ayatollah excuse to ramp up national security and quash the socialist labor movements(these having been a HUGE part of Iranian society before and during the Islamic Revolution). Compare the images and stories of those older Iranians with horror stories brought on by the Shah, burning American flags and taking hostages, to rioting against their own people because of a blatantly rigged election. its because there is a change in the generational thinking. Iranians by and large are starting to realize that with their previous Islamist leaders pulling for a jihad in the West with little to no resources, millions of Iranians lose their jobs, wars over waterways are fought all for nothing. The younger, more culturally open-minded and educated are finally old enough to at least try to change the way their government has worked. don't pull the "blame US" card. I know history, Ive read the books, I understand they have a heavy hand in current affairs in the Middle East...that's pretty obvious to anyone with a mind...but to belittle a genuine backlash against an all but dictatorial regime in name by simply saying "The US manufactured it", and then to not even post one source affirming your belief shows you are more apt to condemn 10% of the story that gets you all emotional than focus on the whole story at large. we'll see how far your protest movement gets eh .. ;l0] ... if you want to settle into the idea that richard engel is a truth speaking non editorially burdened journalist .. well fine ... these are the same networks that gave us the iraq war ..still justify the massacre in afghainstan .. ignore what happened in haiti/cuba/central america/is happening in sth america right now .. indian tribes getting massacred over oil rights .. nobody dem cares on dem keelz .. fokeetol this has as much to do with him as the other journalists and Iranian activists claiming very similar stories, and my point has nothing to do with any of those other examples. I don't get all my news from the television for fucks sake. look, Im not a US apologist no matter how hard you try to paint me or anyone else taking the time ...I know enough people living in Iran and read enough to at least have a decent claim on being more unbiased than most tv or news networks...so until I see any evidence of CIA meddling in the affairs to a substantial degree in which they would cause a large portion of the Iranian population, I am going on the past words and deeds of the progressives and their movement within that country that these riots are legitimate. eneewae ... we all love each other in the watmm sense .. and persia is an amazing location that hasn't attacked anyone in hundreds of years ... so why worry about the place .. when we've got plenee troubles at home .. to whine aboot .. // end thread it just frustrates the fuck out of me that leftwingers take the same method of debate as neo-cons but their sentiments and "emotions" are in the right place, so it excuses the lack of information. Contrary to popular belief, the United States isn't the only player in the global scheme of things. In Iran, you have the Russians, the Turks, the Iraqis, you have fractional ethnicities and cultures, you have labor and leftist groups, you have a younger, more open minded generation of people, you have the rightists and the religious fanatics. There is always more to a situation than a handful of agents willfully and knowingly causing pandemonium. Even the CIA induced coup in Guatemala in the 1960's, which there is copious amounts of documentation on the US' activities, had more implications and players in it than is thought of on the surface of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zaphod Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I highly recommend the animated movie "Persepolis" for those of you haven't seen it and for those of you that just assume Iran is BAD. Like almost everything else in the world, there's degrees of subtlety. I see them alot like Americans, except their country has been influenced by religion much more than the U.S. iran isn't like america at all, and that movie wasn't very good. iran is a mullarchy, so these elections have almost no value except as pr moves. the thing with this is, whether or not it was rigged, the election resulted in an uproar that has created an assumption that they were rigged, and this overriding fact is going to affect iranian elections in the future. it's democratic will at work and that's always a good thing. what can come out of this is massive civil uprising under mousavi, although violence is sure to follow (there's been something like 12 fatalities at demonstrations). the thing the us needs to do, right now, is leave iran the fuck alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR4 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I highly recommend the animated movie "Persepolis" for those of you haven't seen it and for those of you that just assume Iran is BAD. Like almost everything else in the world, there's degrees of subtlety. I see them alot like Americans, except their country has been influenced by religion much more than the U.S. iran isn't like america at all, and that movie wasn't very good. iran is a mullarchy, so these elections have almost no value except as pr moves. the thing with this is, whether or not it was rigged, the election resulted in an uproar that has created an assumption that they were rigged, and this overriding fact is going to affect iranian elections in the future. it's democratic will at work and that's always a good thing. what can come out of this is massive civil uprising under mousavi, although violence is sure to follow (there's been something like 12 fatalities at demonstrations). the thing the us needs to do, right now, is leave iran the fuck alone. thank you. the other thing is, all the heavy industry is under threat of being put out of commission, and casualties if the US decides to run air strikes against Iranian "nuclear facilities". If anything, the people against Mahmoud want him the fuck out of there so he can stop running his mouth and dry up the well of excuses the US is using (whether they are legitimate or not is moot) to talk sanctions and selective targeting operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpenprol Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 some huge percentage of the Iranian population is 25 or under right? So let's hope things get worse so the world gets an influx of hot Iranian refugees. Iran seems to be an amazing place, I had plans to travel there before the second gulf war/invasion of Iraq. I needed to replace a window at my mom's house and struck up a relationship with the Iranian family running the glass store...they gave me a list of cool places to visit, and told me I could crash with their relatives...really nice folks. Too bad Americans are persona non grata in that part of the world now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zaphod Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 i traveled around the middle east last year and had plans to visit iran but my visa was rejected. this was in istanbul, where it is supposedly easier for an american to get a visa to enter iran than within the united states. i'm applying for another one through the embassy here and i've got a bit more pull now (i'm doing an academic program that directly relates to studying the region and i've got some contacts that can vouch on their end), but iran is a complete hassle to get into if you're american. the only way it could be more difficult is if you're iranian american, like my ex, who was detained and questioned when she tried to leave the country to return to the united states last year. apparently they thought she was a spy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpenprol Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 so you're studying Iran specifically Zaphod, can I ask why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr Salads Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 ... whoa that is fucked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zaphod Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 well i'm studying foreign relations with the middle east but i'm focusing on western relations with iran over the last century. i don't know why, really, i suppose that country specifically seems very interesting and has that weird current of social/political/cultural disparity that you see in places like japan that i find particularly interesting. persian history is pretty expansive and rich as well. i think once they get over this difficult period, if they do, iran is going to be a major center for international relations in the middle east. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idrn Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 my iranian friend will be on radio 5 live tonight at 7.. edit: 7am. missed it. bollocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ezkerraldean Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 "iran" has the same etymology as "aryan" true story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noise Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 i hope there's a way for them to overthrow the entire religious hierarchy of Iran, somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 They're all American Jews for sure. But if they're Israeli citizens, it means they've done their stint in the Israeli military. And just because they're Americans doesn't mean that they are any less representative of Israeli thought. the american immigration to israel is the most ideologically motivated, most zionist. anyone with half a clue would know what kind of answers he would get from such crowd with such questions so are you trying to make the claim that this is not representative of a lot of people's opinions who live or visit israel? you make it sound like its an extreme minority Don't bother trying to reason with Eugene. Anyways: total number of Jews living in Israel - 5,435,800 total number of Jews living in America - 5,128,000~6,444,000 Number of North American Jewish emigrants to Israel - 110,000. So the number of North American Jews in Israel is an extreme minority, but since the Likud party (the most nationalist Zionist movement in Israel) has been in power (basically) since the 70's you can say that their thoughts are representative of Israelis as a whole. you lost google from your favorites or something ? check some basic facts before posting bollocks http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/government/previ...s%20of%20israel same goes for "the most nationalist Zionist movement in Israel" - there are at least 4 more nationalist parties than likud dumb drunk american teens are an extreme minority indeed, you cant really make any generalization about israel, too many cultures and ideologies. israel is roughly 50/50 on right vs left, there are obviously a lot of shades of right and left..2006 war was the reason right got pimped last election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zazen Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 This graph from Andrew Sullivans blog is a pretty good indication of the voting fraud that happened: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_...ey-came-in.html As they announced the vote count during the day, the ratio of Ahmadinejad votes to Mousavi votes was almost perfectly linear (the correlation is 0.9995). Which shows that the results must have been made up. Apparently this is based on vote counts released by the Interior Ministry itself. More about it here: http://tehranbureau.com/2009/06/13/faulty-election-data/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenGOD Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Beginning in 1977 Likud has held power for 10 of the 15 elected governments. Only one party has been able to stay in power for more than one termsince then, the labor party, and that only happened once. The Kadima party that won in 2006 was started by former Likud leader Ariel Sharon. So Likud has basically been in power since the 70s. Which is what I said. You're right, of course, there are more nationalist parties than Likud. So what I should have said is Likud is the most nationalist party out of any of the parties who have political power. Although I notice that your foreign minister is an ultra-nationalist, so bravo, your fellow israelis are really showing their progressive side. Likud adheres to the policies of revisionist zionism, which is the more nationalist side of zionism. I can only go by what election results say:Likud, Shas, National Union-National Religious, Israel Beitenu all have seats in the Knesset for a total of 57 seats. And to say that Kadima is a left-leaning party is stretching the truth quite a bit. According to those results, Israel does not reflect a 50/50 left-right split at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squee Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 fuck Andrew Sullivan i just got thrown another quote by someone on a mailing list im on 'read this andrew sullivan article he knows his shit' im sorry but that guy is a total fucking tool. he is one of those total intellectual pussies who was completely pro the Iraq invasion and the war on terror, was a super hawk and then when it became unpopular to be pro iraq war he total had a 180 PR event on his hands. I see absolutely no reason to take at face value anything he says about the Iranian people or their elections (he at one time advocated bombing the shit out of the country but now he wants to 'save' these people from their corrupt government, how nice of him!') don't buy into this whole notion that there is a genuine movement here in the United States to 'help point out the fraudulentness of this election so we can bring Iran freedom' Glenn Greenwald wrote a great article on the hypocricy of this mindset I'm going to leave the debate about whether Iran's election was "stolen" and the domestic implications within Iran to people who actually know what they're talking about (which is a very small subset of the class purporting to possess such knowledge). But there is one point I want to make about the vocal and dramatic expressions of solidarity with Iranians issuing from some quarters in the U.S. Much of the same faction now claiming such concern for the welfare of The Iranian People are the same people who have long been advocating a military attack on Iran and the dropping of large numbers of bombs on their country -- actions which would result in the slaughter of many of those very same Iranian People. During the presidential campaign, John McCain infamously sang about Bomb, Bomb, Bomb-ing Iran. The Wall St. Journal published a war screed from Commentary's Norman Podhoretz entitled "The Case for Bombing Iran," and following that, Podhoretz said in an interview that he "hopes and prays" that the U.S. "bombs the Iranians." John Bolton and Joe Lieberman advocated the same bombing campaign, while Bill Kristol -- with typical prescience -- hopefully suggested that Bush might bomb Iran if Obama were elected. Rudy Giuliani actually said he would be open to a first-strike nuclear attack on Iran in order to stop their nuclear program. Imagine how many of the people protesting this week would be dead if any of these bombing advocates had their way -- just as those who paraded around (and still parade around) under the banner of Liberating the Iraqi People caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of them, at least. Hopefully, one of the principal benefits of the turmoil in Iran is that it humanizes whoever the latest Enemy is. Advocating a so-called "attack on Iran" or "bombing Iran" in fact means slaughtering huge numbers of the very same people who are on the streets of Tehran inspiring so many -- obliterating their homes and workplaces, destroying their communities, shattering the infrastructure of their society and their lives. The same is true every time we start mulling the prospect of attacking and bombing another country as though it's some abstract decision in a video game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zazen Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 fuck Andrew Sullivan I hadn't ever heard of him till I saw that blog post. I think all he did was get the Iranian version of the graph translated it into english. The graph is what I find interesting, not Andrew Sullivan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EDGEY Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zaphod Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 what evidence do you have of the US planning it? Surely they welcome the idea of the current president being removed from power...but I fail to see how it was "manufactured" if most of the Iranian public wanted this done years ago. what evidence do you have that 'most' of the iranian public wanted this done years ago ... this country regularly has elections .. and a wide swath of it's public has a long history of animosity to US meddling in it's affairs ... so regularly they vote in people that stand for iranian independence in the world ... as for trying to prove what i say to you .. i don't feel like writing up the encyclopedia of knowledge into a thread that would be necessary to convince you of US machinations in the affairs of other countries .. if you haven't noticed that already .. great ... have fun with that ... but really .. i'm way beyond bothering with the justifications ... maybe there needs to be a leftwing factbook generated .. like the cia one .. it would save us the hours involved correcting the world of it's ignorance having a searchable url to point to ... heh ... i love your condescending snarky attitude as of late Dleet. open any news mag, journal, or search nexis-lexis database for leftist or democratic movements in Iran, they didn't just spring up now, they have been fermenting for the past twenty years if not longer... the reason they are coming to full fervor is if anything, their current president is attracting more attention towards the nation...thus giving him and the Ayatollah excuse to ramp up national security and quash the socialist labor movements(these having been a HUGE part of Iranian society before and during the Islamic Revolution). Compare the images and stories of those older Iranians with horror stories brought on by the Shah, burning American flags and taking hostages, to rioting against their own people because of a blatantly rigged election. its because there is a change in the generational thinking. Iranians by and large are starting to realize that with their previous Islamist leaders pulling for a jihad in the West with little to no resources, millions of Iranians lose their jobs, wars over waterways are fought all for nothing. The younger, more culturally open-minded and educated are finally old enough to at least try to change the way their government has worked. don't pull the "blame US" card. I know history, Ive read the books, I understand they have a heavy hand in current affairs in the Middle East...that's pretty obvious to anyone with a mind...but to belittle a genuine backlash against an all but dictatorial regime in name by simply saying "The US manufactured it", and then to not even post one source affirming your belief shows you are more apt to condemn 10% of the story that gets you all emotional than focus on the whole story at large. we'll see how far your protest movement gets eh .. ;l0] ... if you want to settle into the idea that richard engel is a truth speaking non editorially burdened journalist .. well fine ... these are the same networks that gave us the iraq war ..still justify the massacre in afghainstan .. ignore what happened in haiti/cuba/central america/is happening in sth america right now .. indian tribes getting massacred over oil rights .. nobody dem cares on dem keelz .. fokeetol this has as much to do with him as the other journalists and Iranian activists claiming very similar stories, and my point has nothing to do with any of those other examples. I don't get all my news from the television for fucks sake. look, Im not a US apologist no matter how hard you try to paint me or anyone else taking the time ...I know enough people living in Iran and read enough to at least have a decent claim on being more unbiased than most tv or news networks...so until I see any evidence of CIA meddling in the affairs to a substantial degree in which they would cause a large portion of the Iranian population, I am going on the past words and deeds of the progressives and their movement within that country that these riots are legitimate. eneewae ... we all love each other in the watmm sense .. and persia is an amazing location that hasn't attacked anyone in hundreds of years ... so why worry about the place .. when we've got plenee troubles at home .. to whine aboot .. // end thread it just frustrates the fuck out of me that leftwingers take the same method of debate as neo-cons but their sentiments and "emotions" are in the right place, so it excuses the lack of information. Contrary to popular belief, the United States isn't the only player in the global scheme of things. In Iran, you have the Russians, the Turks, the Iraqis, you have fractional ethnicities and cultures, you have labor and leftist groups, you have a younger, more open minded generation of people, you have the rightists and the religious fanatics. There is always more to a situation than a handful of agents willfully and knowingly causing pandemonium. Even the CIA induced coup in Guatemala in the 1960's, which there is copious amounts of documentation on the US' activities, had more implications and players in it than is thought of on the surface of things. to add to this and put some things in perspective, iran's economy since about 89 and the end of the iran/iraq war has only benefited something like 5 million people. the biggest problem in iran has not been the united states, it's been economic mismanagement by iran's government. iran is an oil based economy and so it cannot generate labor, so any money that is generated goes into subsidies rather than job creation. the government is annoyed that it is illegitimate so it invests in subsidies rather than productivity. there are loads of foreign investments going into the country that are all mismanaged; china, russia, europe, japan and then the united states all put investments into the country which are then channeled or "managed" through government agencies. the u.s. is actually the losing player in this game, not some power that is somehow holding up iran's economy. this is simply corruption that you see in any third world economy, although you can't completely discount religious factors. ahmadinejad's campaign has always run on economic populism. since most of iran's population is under 25, something like 90% leave primary education without job prospects. there aren't enough spots open in universities for the enormous number of high school graduates (i think something like 320000 for 3000000 graduates). this is the demographic that ahmadinejad appeals to. so where would the united states come into this? probably in the posture we take in the region, constantly warring with these countries and threatening military action. when you have an economy like iran, which is poverty stricken and militarized, you can't completely dismiss the influence of the u.s. on the situation there, but you can't place all the blame on it either. 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awepittance Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 fuck Andrew Sullivan I hadn't ever heard of him till I saw that blog post. I think all he did was get the Iranian version of the graph translated it into english. The graph is what I find interesting, not Andrew Sullivan. it's fine, i've just noticed a shit load of people using his blog as a source of information through out this whole debacle. I'd personally be very skeptical of any claims he makes without full sourcing, but thats just me too bad Ata/Sote doesn't post on watmm much i'm sure he'd have some interesting things to say about this mess, he was went back to iran about 4 years ago and stayed for about 3. but i guess my thoughts are the only reason the USA is paying such close attention to this situation is because some element of US foriegn policy apparatus wants us to coup Iran again or to at least move them in a direction that benefits us more directly. there is no truly humanitarian or 'we want them to be free like us' energy that is causing this over focus on the Iranian elections imo, im sure some of the people in this discussion care but i believe the debate has been framed to begin with by people with an entirely different agenda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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