Rhyming in other languages

[Guest Backson]

do the sounds that rhyme in English work in other languages?

 

do the sounds that rhyme fr us get used in the same sense for poetry, songs and raps in other parts of the world? or do they not rely heavily on rhyming in their work like the English speaking parts of the world do?

[halisray]

bonjour petit cochon

est ce que je peux toucher ton bonbon

ta yeule calisse de tabarnac

je vai te donner une clac

 

 

I just rhymed in my limited French vocabularly.

 

 

WHAT NOW BITCH

 

[data]

swedish 90's rap with subtitles!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZEl9c9zVTw

 

edit: fucking lol at some of the translation

 

edit2:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD-0WCNEh_w

[gaarg]

do the sounds that rhyme in English work in other languages?

 

do the sounds that rhyme fr us get used in the same sense for poetry, songs and raps in other parts of the world? or do they not rely heavily on rhyming in their work like the English speaking parts of the world do?

 

Well, do you speak any other language, besides English?

 

Because I don't really understand the question.

[Guest mohamed]

do the sounds that rhyme in English work in other languages?

 

do the sounds that rhyme fr us get used in the same sense for poetry, songs and raps in other parts of the world? or do they not rely heavily on rhyming in their work like the English speaking parts of the world do?

 

some people rely on the sound of rhymes more then the rhymes itself

 

it's more likely to happen to non anglophones, but that's not the matter. it's a different sense to approach rhymes, not better nor worse, from the very start.

 

this way you accustom to rhymes from the flow, and discover the significance of them in a second time, after years, usually when the significance doesn't matter anymore.

[Blir]

Everybody's rappin' like it's a commercial.

Acting like life is a big commercial.

[Guest mohamed]

Everybody's rappin' like it's a commercial.

Acting like life is a big commercial.

 

i agree

 

most rappers seem to talk to a larger audience

 

most of which does not exist, in fact they invent the public to talk to as well

 

not that far from your favourite musicians

[Guest mohamed]

regarding the rhyme work that works in other language the answer is no

 

imagine the cultural context in which rhymes happen for example, thats just one of the things that shape a language

 

i think it must sound appropriate to the use that it's done of it. so, more than english/non english i'd say the succeeding of a rhyme depends on the context the rhyme is put on

 

cultural --> social, political ecc. you can put it in any fashion you want, but we're talking about words. only the musical meaning stays the same

 

translating literally a rhyme, is translating literally a context from english to another language and you'll probably get no correspondence from the author to the foreign listener

 

it's the 'flow', or the rhythm, the cadence, the way to think about it

[Guest mohamed]

that and the tone, of course

[Guest Babar]

French rhymes. How do they works ?

 

The most important thing is handling mute Es. Let's consider: "Je te dis que c'est vrai" (i'm telling you it's true). It can be transcribed as:

 

formal : [ʒø.tø.di.kø.se.vʁe]

cool : [ʒøt.di.kse.vʁe]

or : [ʒtø.di.kse.vʁe]

etc.

 

But most of people don't speak like that. It's really clear whether the ø is prounounced or not. Actually the sound that it produced corresponds to a different configuration of the vocal apparatus. So when you want to represent this unstable sound that is subject to many different forms of pronunciation depending on factors such as geography, age, register etc... you use this symbol: ə called "mute e" or "schva". hence [ʒə.tø.di.kə.se.vʁe] (for example). This is the same sound as in [ou(ə)r](hour) (but in this case the vocalic core of the syllable is bundled into a triphthong (syllable's vowel = 3 vowels) which makes the ə even fainter : that's why it's between a pair of parenthesis.)

 

How is this sound pronounced in poetry ?

French verses are divided into 2 or several parts with caesuras. For exampe, here is a couple verses extracted from Rimbaud's A la musique/To Music

 

On the green benches, retired grocers' clubs,

Poking the sand with their knobbed walking canes,

 

Sur les bancs verts, des clubs d'épiciers retraités

Qui tisonnent le sable | avec leur canne à pomme,

 

This one is an alexandrine (12 metric units, i'm gonna call them syllables now even though it's not really correct) divided in 2 subverses of 6 syllables. Roughly,

tisonnent = [tizonə]

sable = [sablə]

 

 

When [ə] occur within a subverse it is always pronounced. When it is at the end of a subverse, it is never pronounced.

Subsequently,

[ki.tizonø.lø.sabl |6 syllables so far | avek.lœʁ.kanø.a.pom]

You might notice there are 7 syllables in the second part. This is because i haven't taken into account the liaison ("link"). When a word ends on a [ə], this [ə] is merged with the second word but only if this word begins with a vowel (and i'm talking about phonetic vowel, most of words beginning with the letter H actually begin with a vowel).

hence

[ki.tizonø.lø.sabl |6 syllables so far | avek.lœʁ.kan.a.pom]

but what if it is was "Qui tisonnent amèrement..." (="Who bitterly poke")

the final [ə] of "tisonnent" wouldn't merge with "amèrement", because it has dormant final sounds (which are represented through the spelling). Thus instead of [ki.tizon.amεʁəmɑ̃] you have to say [ki.tizonøt.amεʁəmɑ̃]

 

And that's all !

Also according to classic poetry rules, words rhyme on the basis of couples of two or more phonemes (sounds), one being a vowel instead of rhyming with half-assed sounds. We call the first ones, rich rhymes, the others, poor rhymes.

 

Example:

bonjour petit cochon

est ce que je peux toucher ton bonbon

ta gueule calisse de tabarnac

je vais te donner une claque

 

that's a good and fun quatrain by the way

[o00o]

French rhymes. How do they works ?

 

The most important thing is handling mute Es. Let's consider: "Je te dis que c'est vrai" (i'm telling you it's true). It can be transcribed as:

 

formal : [ʒø.tø.di.kø.se.vʁe]

cool : [ʒøt.di.kse.vʁe]

or : [ʒtø.di.kse.vʁe]

etc.

 

But most of people don't speak like that. It's really clear whether the ø is prounounced or not. Actually the sound that it produced corresponds to a different configuration of the vocal apparatus. So when you want to represent this unstable sound that is subject to many different forms of pronunciation depending on factors such as geography, age, register etc... you use this symbol: ə called "mute e" or "schva". hence [ʒə.tø.di.kə.se.vʁe] (for example). This is the same sound as in [ou(ə)r](hour) (but in this case the vocalic core of the syllable is bundled into a triphthong (syllable's vowel = 3 vowels) which makes the ə even fainter : that's why it's between a pair of parenthesis.)

 

How is this sound pronounced in poetry ?

French verses are divided into 2 or several parts with caesuras. For exampe, here is a couple verses extracted from Rimbaud's A la musique/To Music

 

On the green benches, retired grocers' clubs,

Poking the sand with their knobbed walking canes,

 

Sur les bancs verts, des clubs d'épiciers retraités

Qui tisonnent le sable | avec leur canne à pomme,

 

This one is an alexandrine (12 metric units, i'm gonna call them syllables now even though it's not really correct) divided in 2 subverses of 6 syllables. Roughly,

tisonnent = [tizonə]

sable = [sablə]

 

 

When [ə] occur within a subverse it is always pronounced. When it is at the end of a subverse, it is never pronounced.

Subsequently,

[ki.tizonø.lø.sabl |6 syllables so far | avek.lœʁ.kanø.a.pom]

You might notice there are 7 syllables in the second part. This is because i haven't taken into account the liaison ("link"). When a word ends on a [ə], this [ə] is merged with the second word but only if this word begins with a vowel (and i'm talking about phonetic vowel, most of words beginning with the letter H actually begin with a vowel).

hence

[ki.tizonø.lø.sabl |6 syllables so far | avek.lœʁ.kan.a.pom]

but what if it is was "Qui tisonnent amèrement..." (="Who bitterly poke")

the final [ə] of "tisonnent" wouldn't merge with "amèrement", because it has dormant final sounds (which are represented through the spelling). Thus instead of [ki.tizon.amεʁəmɑ̃] you have to say [ki.tizonøt.amεʁəmɑ̃]

 

And that's all !

Also according to classic poetry rules, words rhyme on the basis of couples of two or more phonemes (sounds), one being a vowel instead of rhyming with half-assed sounds. We call the first ones, rich rhymes, the others, poor rhymes.

 

Example:

bonjour petit cochon

est ce que je peux toucher ton bonbon

ta gueule calisse de tabarnac

je vais te donner une claque

 

that's a good and fun quatrain by the way

 

post of the year

[Guest mohamed]

you'll probably get no correspondence from the author to the foreign listener

 

umm.. sorry, i meant reader

[chenGOD]

Since rhyme is defined as "a correspondence of sound between words or the ending of words, especially when these are used at the ends of lines of poetry" I'd say that rhymes work the same in foreign languages as they do in English.

 

Do those rhymes work when you translate into English? of course not.

[spratters]

I think you should all stop reading further posts. Just refer back to Babar.

[Guest nene multiple assgasms]

it seems like rhyming in languages like french and spanish with so many standard word endings must be easier than in english. does this diminish the effect of rhyme in those languages? a lot of the fun in rhyming in english is that it's relatively difficult, making the lyrics of people like MF DOOM all the more impressive.

[Guest mohamed]

it seems like rhyming in languages like french and spanish with so many standard word endings must be easier than in english. does this diminish the effect of rhyme in those languages? a lot of the fun in rhyming in english is that it's relatively difficult, making the lyrics of people like MF DOOM all the more impressive.

 

yes, all the greatest rappers have the greatest flows, notice that, cos they make it sound both musically and lirically. this high level of stuff, they make it accessible also for those whose ears catch the music first, and the rest aftwerwards, or even never. it doesn't matter. they improve the fun with music all the same.

[Guest mohamed]

a correspondence of sound

[Guest cardan]

....No.....When you translate English words that rhyme........they become............different words........and the chance of random words rhyming..............is low...............?

[Guest cardan]

Is that what you were asking?

[Guest Babar]

it's not just about rhyming. Rhythm is important too if not more. It relies on breath, and tone groups - anything that can said be in a single breath. In french each syllables have the same length. So tone groups can vary in duration, but as you have a "breath limit", the syllable length can vary too. Just try to pronounce "anticonstitutionnellement" and "antifasciste". The first one will be pronounced at a higher pace.

English is all about stress.

 

I don't know who you are (Certainly not sir, you must be mistaking me for someone else)

I don't know who you are (Get off asshole, i'm opposed to your vile presence)

I don't know who you are (but i can suck your cock, i just don't want to hear your name)

I don't know who you are (but i do know who's the guy with a chainsaw, he's my science teacher !)

etc...

 

It's made by changing the syllables length, consequently, tone groups tend to have a more steady length. How does it influence english poetry ? you tell me.

[Guest Calx Sherbet]

fuckin rhymes

[huzur]

babar is my favorite member, i think i might stalk him from now on

[QBLA]

Babar Droppin' Lyrical Science on the Strengph G!

[Boxus]

Nice analysis Babar!

 

Listening to rap in unknown languages is a treat! Free from the need to decode meaning, your mind can focus entirely on the phonetic patterns in the flow. Rhymes transcend language barriers since they can be enjoyed as a purely phonetic/acoustic phenomenon.

 

Metrical properties of a language have the most obvious effect on how poetic speech can be constructed. Stress patterns for instance, determine the natural rhythm of speech for a native speaker. Stress will have a preferred position within a pair of syllables (iambic, trochaic, etc), a preferred position for primary pair within a word, and a preferred position for primary word within a sentence.

 

I highly recommend using a database like wals.info to look up data on a specific language of interest to you. Check out their page on Farsi: http://wals.info/languoid/lect/wals_code_prs

 

This gives you a quick idea of how the language works relative to others, which helps make sense of how its words, sentences, and rhymes might be constructed. From that page, for instance, we can tell that Farsi has fixed stress on the ultimate syllable, meaning that primary stress will fall on the last syllable in every word. This seems conducive to rhyme, since it ensures that the final syllable will be emphasized. Compare to English, where stress is very unfixed and hops around based on the syllables nearby. This lets English rappers get away with some very loose rhymes, but it also encourages one to build more complex rhymes in order to match both the stressed and the final syllables of a word. For example, say you're trying to rhyme something with "barrier". The first syllable [beɪɹ] is stressed, so you'll want to match it somehow, like with "care"/[keɪɹ], but you'll also want to match the final syllable, [əɹ], for a nice word-final rhyme, so maybe you'd rhyme "barrier" with "carrot blur". You may have to stretch your topic a bit to fit in the carrot blur, but you see my point - a two-fold rhyme becomes necessary because the stressed syllable demands a rhyme as well as the final. In Farsi, perhaps, this situation would occur less since stress is fixed on the final syllable, and simple rhymes might be easier to get away with.

 

However, listening to Hichkas, it sounds like Persian rap can be just as complex and deeply patterned as anything else. I'm a big fan of this rapper and his producer, Mahdyar Aghajani. If you like this check out their new ep: http://www.abarrecords.com/12/section.aspx/4

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU1NNAH6b_g&feature=related

[kaini]

Not Dutch rap, but this guy rhymes 'loes' with 'douche'

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGvOYo8gS7Y

 

sinterklaas kapoentje,

gooi wat in mijn schoentje,

bij de moffen gooien,

maar in holland strooien!