Americans & Indians

[chenGOD]

smetty - don't misunderstand me - there are plenty of other nations which have done really really fucked up things. I just find baph's response a really puerile attempt at deflecting blame.

[SR4]

word!

 

[lumpenprol]

as if americans are some sort of malevolent super geniuses straight out of Yakub's laboratory or some shit.

 

lol!

[baph]

smetty - don't misunderstand me - there are plenty of other nations which have done really really fucked up things. I just find baph's response a really puerile attempt at deflecting blame.

 

Except it's neither puerile nor blame-deflecting. (And forced sterilization is not minor)

Indigenous populations are fucked over by everyone. I'm making that point because the tone of the original post in this thread is fucking puerile and self-congratulatory. Or at least reads that way.

[SR4]

i fucked up this thread.

 

 

oh shit reminds me of the tale of the Wendigo!! (native american monster of myth)

 

as told in the greatest childhood horror book of all time, Scary Stories

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBGmMXp3pF0

 

 

also, Skinwalkers...creepy

[chim]

Most Americans I know are quite well aware of the terrible position that Natives have been put in.

 

I find this to be true as well, but apparently we're not discussing it enough in the exported Popular Culture for the Swedes to become informed of, and fully digest, our guilt, to better compare it to their own perfectly homogenous zero-conflict-ever cultural consciousness.

 

How are all the Sami these days, anyway?

 

Sorry if it's a touchy subject, not passing judgment, I'm just curious. What I wanted was personal stories (which I believe I stated) like the ones xxx, luke and calx posted. I'm too tired to deal with the rest of your assumptions, I get the feeling you just automatically decided this was usual snobby european commentary on the US. I love US culture, the a-bomb thing was a joke. It's stupid to think an entire country is evil, that's the sort of thinking that started all these wars & shit in the first place.

 

Sweden hasn't been that much of a saint through the ages, nobody's too happy about the treatment of the sami and the sterilization thing (which was perpetrated mainly on swedes, we're a little less discriminate with our crimes against humanity). The contrast isn't that we're better, it's that you're the biggest loudest country on earth while we're a quiet little nation of pussies. That's the sole thing that makes it intriguing to me, and maybe how a concept like national pride can endure these circumstances and what it means to live in that environment. I can't afford to visit so I'll have to make do.

 

I understand there's a certain naive reverence towards the ways of the native americans, that they were living in an utopia. Doesn't help when you've got stories like this:

The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied. 'When white man find this land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex.'

 

Then the chief leaned back and smiled.

 

'Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that.'

 

 

 

also, it should be stressed that the incursions against Native Americans weren't only done at the hands of the US. check colonial period and Latin Americas. incredibly brutal stuff everywhere.

 

Yeah the shit that went on in South America is mindboggling. Truly brutal shit.

 

Never heard of that before, I'll look it up.

 

Any theft was initiated by the English. Not just in the US but many other lands. Australia, New Zealand, Canada. This doesn't absolve any country of their responsibility, they are all guilty.

 

Anyway, "This is the world we live in...whoa-oh-oh".

 

England has possibly been the worst - but as far as I know no "upstanding" western country ever stopped trading for that kind of reason, so we are all involved..

[chim]

I don't think you can really compare the two situations - genocide vs some very mild dislocation. Also important to note is how the Swedes et al. have reacted it to it - according to the wiki article, in Norway a least they have their own parliament.

I understand you're upset cause people try to piss on the States on many occasions, but you guys do put yourself about a bit more than the Swedes...

 

They've got a parliament in sweden as well.

[SR4]

one really frustrating thing about native american history is the fact that there was little to no documentation of what they were up to prior to their westernization...imagine if they had kept written records of tribal meetings, interrogations involving breaches of tribal law, how they divvied up work, what decisions/arguments were made on how to best deal with the colonials...so much lost to time....we can really only rely on archaeology and european colonists

[chim]

nvm

[Guest Calx Sherbet]

oh shit reminds me of the tale of the Wendigo!! (native american monster of myth)

 

 

i can't believe these didn't ruin my mind as a young child. awesome story

[murve33]

I live near Mankato, MN. Home of the largest mass-execution in America. I believe 39 Indians were hanged in a gallows special designed to hang them all at once.

 

The original number was 303, luckily Abe Lincoln stepped in. Abe wanted the number to be much less. I think he looked into the trials of each Indian convicted and was going to have the ones that raped civilians hanged. Only 4 did that, so he went with crimes against civilians, and he got 39.

 

Anyways, I know my area of the country feels all sorts of white guilt. We have festivals and all kinds of events that have the purpose of uniting Indians and Non-Indians. Indians from all over the Midwest and Canada come to them. It's pretty cool.

 

These are all done by the city of Mankato. I don't think we as a state, or country, will be giving back any land any time soon.

 

Continued: I've been learning a shit-load about how the Indians were treated back in the 1800s. Pretty shitty. Many tribes were exiled to Nebraska/Missouri/Illinois. These places were unable to grow crops and tons of them died. I'll try to post some decent documentaries.

 

And please, don't let the ignorant masses of this country represent this country. I know it's hard, because they get a lot of media coverage and love to scream about America and Jesus. There are many people in this country that want things to be different.

[SR4]

I live near Mankato, MN. Home of the largest mass-execution in America. I believe 39 Indians were hanged in a gallows special designed to hang them all at once.

 

The original number was 303, luckily Abe Lincoln stepped in. Abe wanted the number to be much less. I think he looked into the trials of each Indian convicted and was going to have the ones that raped civilians hanged. Only 4 did that, so he went with crimes against civilians, and he got 39.

 

Anyways, I know my area of the country feels all sorts of white guilt. We have festivals and all kinds of events that have the purpose of uniting Indians and Non-Indians. Indians from all over the Midwest and Canada come to them. It's pretty cool.

 

These are all done by the city of Mankato. I don't think we as a state, or country, will be giving back any land any time soon.

 

 

damn, awesome find! never knew about that..

 

 

there was an event around where i live in involving a corrupt sheriff that basically made about six or seven natives dig their own graves, shot them dead....and then a year later there was no mention of the sheriff...no will, nothing...

[pattern recognition]

I live near Mankato, MN. Home of the largest mass-execution in America. I believe 39 Indians were hanged in a gallows special designed to hang them all at once.

 

The original number was 303, luckily Abe Lincoln stepped in. Abe wanted the number to be much less. I think he looked into the trials of each Indian convicted and was going to have the ones that raped civilians hanged. Only 4 did that, so he went with crimes against civilians, and he got 39.

 

Anyways, I know my area of the country feels all sorts of white guilt. We have festivals and all kinds of events that have the purpose of uniting Indians and Non-Indians. Indians from all over the Midwest and Canada come to them. It's pretty cool.

 

These are all done by the city of Mankato. I don't think we as a state, or country, will be giving back any land any time soon.

no shit? i live near mankato, mn as well.

[murve33]

no shit? i live near mankato, mn as well.

Ha! Yea, no shit. I go to school there and have been within an hours drive my whole life. So I guess you probably know what I'm on about.

[luke viia]

I understand there's a certain naive reverence towards the ways of the native americans, that they were living in an utopia. Doesn't help when you've got stories like this:

The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied. 'When white man find this land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex.'

 

Then the chief leaned back and smiled.

 

'Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that.'

 

While I do find Native American culture fascinating, I find myself appalled by the number of do-gooder Western hippies in my midst that seriously believe in the idea of the "Noble Savage." Life was very different for them, I'm sure. They did not have taxes or 'debt' in the way we have debt, and they may have had plenty beaver and clean water. "Women did all the work" is a less noble suggestion, and "free medicine man" wasn't exactly the kind of medicine man we know today. There are countless problems with western society (among them is the incredible amount of debt we willingly go into to pay for our own medicine men), but attempting to step backwards in the history of culture to a time of tribal warfare and praying to the sun because if you don't it will stop moving, even among all the plenty beaver - that is not an appropriate answer. We have to learn from the past, not return to it.

 

My apologies for the small tangent, but I wanted to address just how right you are when you say some people here have a "naive reverence" for Native culture.

[pattern recognition]

no shit? i live near mankato, mn as well.

Ha! Yea, no shit. I go to school there and have been within an hours drive my whole life. So I guess you probably know what I'm on about.

i've got a degree from a school in mankato--

i do know what you're on about.

 

i'm in waseca, and i've wondered for years about the history of the native american names in the area. no one i've asked seems to know much about it. i've thought about checking out the historical society, but always seem to be too busy.

[murve33]

no shit? i live near mankato, mn as well.

Ha! Yea, no shit. I go to school there and have been within an hours drive my whole life. So I guess you probably know what I'm on about.

i've got a degree from a school in mankato--

i do know what you're on about.

 

i'm in waseca, and i've wondered for years about the history of the native american names in the area. no one i've asked seems to know much about it. i've thought about checking out the historical society, but always seem to be too busy.

FUCK! I'm in Waseca! Who the Fuck Are You! There's only 8000 of us.

 

Dude, PM me. I probably know you. Well actually I probably don't. You're a tad older than me if you have a degree. Jeez, weird.

[baph]

Most Americans I know are quite well aware of the terrible position that Natives have been put in.

 

I find this to be true as well, but apparently we're not discussing it enough in the exported Popular Culture for the Swedes to become informed of, and fully digest, our guilt, to better compare it to their own perfectly homogenous zero-conflict-ever cultural consciousness.

 

How are all the Sami these days, anyway?

 

Sorry if it's a touchy subject, not passing judgment, I'm just curious. What I wanted was personal stories (which I believe I stated) like the ones xxx, luke and calx posted. I'm too tired to deal with the rest of your assumptions, I get the feeling you just automatically decided this was usual snobby european commentary on the US. I love US culture, the a-bomb thing was a joke. It's stupid to think an entire country is evil, that's the sort of thinking that started all these wars & shit in the first place.

 

Sweden hasn't been that much of a saint through the ages, nobody's too happy about the treatment of the sami and the sterilization thing (which was perpetrated mainly on swedes, we're a little less discriminate with our crimes against humanity). The contrast isn't that we're better, it's that you're the biggest loudest country on earth while we're a quiet little nation of pussies. That's the sole thing that makes it intriguing to me, and maybe how a concept like national pride can endure these circumstances and what it means to live in that environment. I can't afford to visit so I'll have to make do.

 

I understand there's a certain naive reverence towards the ways of the native americans, that they were living in an utopia. Doesn't help when you've got stories like this:

The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied. 'When white man find this land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex.'

 

Then the chief leaned back and smiled.

 

'Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that.'

 

 

 

also, it should be stressed that the incursions against Native Americans weren't only done at the hands of the US. check colonial period and Latin Americas. incredibly brutal stuff everywhere.

 

Yeah the shit that went on in South America is mindboggling. Truly brutal shit.

 

Never heard of that before, I'll look it up.

 

Any theft was initiated by the English. Not just in the US but many other lands. Australia, New Zealand, Canada. This doesn't absolve any country of their responsibility, they are all guilty.

 

Anyway, "This is the world we live in...whoa-oh-oh".

 

England has possibly been the worst - but as far as I know no "upstanding" western country ever stopped trading for that kind of reason, so we are all involved..

 

Fair enough, chimera. I think it was the "those crazy injuns" that bothered me and (what I perceived to be) your assumption that all Americans are totally ignorant about the issue. Which you probably didn't mean. I nearly wrote my senior thesis on the disruption of native populations/cultures/ecological and economic models (I think I slid into an alternate topic solely because I couldn't get all the library materials I wanted given my self-imposed-due-to-procrastination short time frame), so I guess it hit a nerve.

 

BUT ANYWAY-- the book I mentioned a while back, Cronon's Changes in the Land, is really an interesting jumping off point for discussion of some of this stuff. The Amerindian situation obviously crosses into a lot of post-colonial/subaltern studies stuff that resonates internationally, but the differences are illuminating too, particularly in light of the sometimes almost inadvertent nature of subjugation that was sometimes at work with the American tribes (this is not to say that outright genocide didn't occur as well).

 

A whole lot of what made the American situation distinguishable had to do with the horrible Roussauean concept of the "Noble Savage" which was pretty en vogue for most of our particular ongoing atrocity, and the way that played into dismantling indigenous subsistence systems in favor of "enlightened" western property systems; effectively what the honkeys thought would be a gift to the 'savages' and raise them fully to White levels ended up destroying the local cultures in the first wave of colonization (along with disease), so that the rest of the whole sad game flowed forth a lot easier. In the Northeast, the idea of "wampum" as currency basically went viral, destroyed subsistence systems and changed the local ecology so much that the truly traditional Native American cultures ceased to exist, or even be possible, on very short order. Part of this then plays back into why so many disparate, locally-adapted tribes were all lumped together as Plains Indians and relocated to the Southwest.

[pattern recognition]

no shit? i live near mankato, mn as well.

Ha! Yea, no shit. I go to school there and have been within an hours drive my whole life. So I guess you probably know what I'm on about.

i've got a degree from a school in mankato--

i do know what you're on about.

 

i'm in waseca, and i've wondered for years about the history of the native american names in the area. no one i've asked seems to know much about it. i've thought about checking out the historical society, but always seem to be too busy.

FUCK! I'm in Waseca! Who the Fuck Are You! There's only 8000 of us.

 

Dude, PM me. I probably know you. Well actually I probably don't. You're a tad older than me if you have a degree. Jeez, weird.

lol, that's pretty bizarre. i'm guessing i'm quite a bit older than you, i've almost got 2 degrees, so i might not know you. but yeah in a small town like this it's a sure thing we know some people in common.

 

maybe i shouldn't have pm'd you, maybe you know someone who knows me who'll tell you i'm an asshole or something!

[Guest hahathhat]

I understand there's a certain naive reverence towards the ways of the native americans, that they were living in an utopia. Doesn't help when you've got stories like this:

The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied. 'When white man find this land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex.'

 

Then the chief leaned back and smiled.

 

'Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that.'

 

While I do find Native American culture fascinating, I find myself appalled by the number of do-gooder Western hippies in my midst that seriously believe in the idea of the "Noble Savage." Life was very different for them, I'm sure. They did not have taxes or 'debt' in the way we have debt, and they may have had plenty beaver and clean water. "Women did all the work" is a less noble suggestion, and "free medicine man" wasn't exactly the kind of medicine man we know today. There are countless problems with western society (among them is the incredible amount of debt we willingly go into to pay for our own medicine men), but attempting to step backwards in the history of culture to a time of tribal warfare and praying to the sun because if you don't it will stop moving, even among all the plenty beaver - that is not an appropriate answer. We have to learn from the past, not return to it.

 

My apologies for the small tangent, but I wanted to address just how right you are when you say some people here have a "naive reverence" for Native culture.

 

it's not a noble savage that i appreciate at all! it's more things like the image of stoicism. sitting in a circle together for hours, not saying anything unless it's seriously considered. engaging, haphazard, and awesomely random legends about existence and this or that hill over there. i never really gave much thought to the scalping angle, but i was aware that they were v. messy from the getgo. i recall some lessons in school when i was about 9 about how this or that tribe would use all parts of the bufflo -- the details of this were pretty unsettling. ew, they do what with the gall bladder? that's just how things were back then.

 

i'm from new england. i live near where the pilgrims touched down -- thanksgiving, the indians, the birth of america and all that crap. there's this local thing, old sturbridge village where they do live re-enactments, kind of like a theme park but much more serious and "educational." along with the buffalo gross-out they took us there, and a guy also came to the school around that time and set up a teepee and gave a talk in it. this is where my impressions come from. i'd actually never really questioned them until just now !

 

the re-enactment deal obviously wouldn't show the gory side, and who knows what other sort of bias/"interpretation" is going on. but the real thing isn't really around this area any more....

[chenGOD]

smetty - don't misunderstand me - there are plenty of other nations which have done really really fucked up things. I just find baph's response a really puerile attempt at deflecting blame.

 

Except it's neither puerile nor blame-deflecting. (And forced sterilization is not minor)

Indigenous populations are fucked over by everyone. I'm making that point because the tone of the original post in this thread is fucking puerile and self-congratulatory. Or at least reads that way.

 

Notice that I didn't include the forced sterilization in my post?

It is blame-deflecting - "oh we can't talk about american fuck-ups without acknowledging that other countries have fucked up as well" No one is denying that indigenous populations are fucked over all over the place, this thread was about american personal reactions and experiences with the indigenous population, but you chose to get all pissy and treat it like a personal insult.

[FLA FUR BIS FLE]

Yeah, the plight of most Native American Clans/Tribes in the States is just terrible. I can't really add much more to it than that. Severe problems with addiction (particularly alcohol) poverty, crime etc.

 

I live about 5 miles from the local Tuscarora Reservation. There are some nice areas, and some really destitute ones. It is quite a strange place, and has a lot of history, being right on the Niagara Frontier.

 

The history & mythology behind the local clans has been an interest of mine ever since I was a kid. I grew up very close to the Res, a good chunk of my childhood friends as a kid were native, and the Niagara map is dotted with all sorts of historic locations in regards to not just the American Revolution, but North American Native history in general. What really bums me out though, is to see a lot of that just vanishing. The oral tradition is dieing off, and you rarely see any type of Clan related gatherings happening.. and when you do, it ultimately devolves in to a drink fest, and playing fireball (a game not suited for drunkenness).

 

And then there is this:

 

That is the local Seneca Casino. Looks over one of the worst neighborhoods in Niagara. I can't really outright blame the Natives for getting theirs, and building on land that should have rightfully belonged to them for years .. but it is just a blight on the landscape, and local economy. But yeah whatever.

 

Any how, if you are interested in Native myths & legends, an interesting place to start is here:

 

It has more to do with Natives of the mid west (Ho Chunk/Winnebago), but is really interesting, and will give you some insight to what a lot of Native legends are like. They are certainly different, from place to place, but follow the same themes generally. The Hopi have some pretty mental tales, though.

[Guest Iain C]

is this thread about how terrible Australians are yet?

[Guest disparaissant]

And then there is this:

 

looks like back to the future 2 haha. only 4 years off!

 

i'm like at least 1/4 or 1/2 native, i'm not sure. i was adopted but my bio mom was from a reservation. sadly, i probably got lucky, i ended up moving to the edge of a reservation a few years ago and it was pretty hellish around there. lots of gang shit and just fuckloads of meth going around.

[gaarg]

Hey guys, let's think about this one.

 

Say you find out for a fact that your ancestors (like 100-200 years ago) got to where you are now by totally exploiting a certain family. In a really bad way. Now you are well off, and they've been at almost starvation level for a few generations now.

 

Would you try to help them out in some way or would you say it was your ancestor's fault, not yours? Would you even dare contacting them (let's say the were not aware of why something destroyed their social standard).

 

Scary, right?