Guest mollekula Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Hi folks, as my appetite grows bigger and bigger for sound design to inject more interesting textures into my works, Im thinking of learning to use at least one program from: Max/MSP/ Pure Data / SuperCollider / ChucK. Unfortunately Im a kind of person who has never been into programming language and its not easy to understand the workflow from scratch. Sorry if this question might sound stupid to some but as Ive explained i dont know much about programming. Do these programs use the same/similar programming language to make patches, or each one has their own way for synthesis? For a programming beginner as myself, which of these machines would you suggest? so that its easier for me to start making sounds and begin to understand how this thing works, at least get an idea. Thanx in advance if there is somebody willing to help out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logakght Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 pure data is free and awesome, you can start with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EleminoP Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Pure Data and Max/MSP are probably easier to get into than SuperCollider and ChucK. Maybe not though. I'd do what logakght said. Be sure to do a lot of tutorials and look for patches online of stuff you're interested in and reverse engineer them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rekosn Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 yes definitely pure data, is free and a powerful modular environment like max/msp(in fact,they were both created by the same guy) then you can work your way up to SuperCollider, even being a full programming language is really noob-friendly, superfun and immediate even for a absolute non- programmer. and the community is genius, they will help you with anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rekosn Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Chuck handles time differently. and I remember the sound being horrible, but didnt really dug much further, so what do I know...Im all SC now. would like to hear opinions from people seasoned with both languages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mollekula Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Thank you for the info guys. Ive been digging all day on the net and I guess each of these (including Reaktor which i didnt mention in the topic title) have their own advantages and drawbacks. Pure Data is free but most people whom i asked preferred Max to PD. And i just found out that it has inbuilt tutorials! So my option bends towards Max, ill try to make something simple, at least make some simple sounds. Im all SC now. would like to hear opinions from people seasoned with both languages SC you mean Shortcircuit? If yes, this is another tool i recently discovered. I only used Xenakios HourGlass for some simple sound design, so jumping to this is quite a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rekosn Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 I meant SuperCollider. heh Im checking the programs you mentioned, thanks for the tip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Wall Bird Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Max/MSP has a series of amazing tutorials built into the program which will have you building and analyzing real patches with each example. All you need is a rudimentary understanding of MIDI and sound synthesis. That being said, I think Max/MSP is a little clunky if you're looking to primarily make music. The implementation with DAWs other than Live, can be a pain. There's a big curve to overcome before you'll begin making synthesizers that are at the quality of commercial products. One exception would be patches that manipulate pre-existing audio samples. You can create come fun and powerful patches that manipulate samples relatively soon. Max is incredible for manipulating MIDI data, which is something I spend a lot of time doing and is the best for the task, in my experience. I guess if I had to sum it up, I'd say don't expect to make sophisticated synthesized sounds using MSP anytime soon, because of the learning curve, but if you're focus is manipulating MIDI data or audio samples/streams then go right ahead. It's a lot of fun. I think Reaktor is a nice compliment to Max because it's horrible at manipulating MIDI data, but is far more playable and quick when it comes to building playable synthesizers. Just beware. Programs like these can be huge time-sinks in which you may become fully-engrossed, to the detriment of your music making. Just use them responsibly, if your goal is to create music. You may end up spending more time building your tools than using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mollekula Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Max/MSP has a series of amazing tutorials built into the program which will have you building and analyzing real patches with each example. All you need is a rudimentary understanding of MIDI and sound synthesis Yes, this is exactly what Im aiming at, synthesis and sound design. After a few years of experimenting, I could say that Im steadily forming my sound, regarding the direction i want to follow for my current project. There are many elements that i want to add to my music, interesting sound effects and textures. Even though i love sampling, Ive never been a friend of using sound effects/textures etc from the countless sample banks circulating on the net. There are many spectacular textures to rip from movies, docs and music, but Ive never done it because Im not interested. Im interested in making my own sounds, and thus interested in synthesis and sound design. In no way am i learning all this to makes VSTs, but to make wider the realms and my knowledge/skills for making electronic music. I think i could combine learning max and working on my stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ryanmcallister Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Wall Bird beat me to the bunch, but I'll echo what he said, I use both Max/MSP and Reaktor. For musical endeavours Reaktor wins hands down. It's just much easier and quicker to experimental ideas together and actually get something playing, it's got a great heirarchy that takes you from really low level DSP up to something essentially the same as wiring of devices in Propellerhead's Reason, and everything in between. With Max/MSP you could spend hours just figuring out how to make a simple oscillator module. IMO reinventing the wheel is not necessary in most cases. For this reason I turn to Reaktor in those sound design sessions when I ask myself "what would happen if I connected this to that?" Where Max/MSP really shines though is event handling, whether this means building sequencers or generative patches, or processing the input of your webcam to control a parameter in your synth, or whatever you can think of. It just has a hell of a lot more options than Reaktor. PD is a great jumping off point if finances and the morality of internet piracy stand in your way. Think of it as Max/MSP Lite, any time invested in learning PD is transferrable to Max/MSP. There are a few syntax differences here and there, but most objects are pretty much the same, there's just more of them in Max. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 here's another audio programming environment, based on Scheme: http://impromptu.moso.com.au/index.html OSX only, but really powerful, it's all CoreAudio.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EleminoP Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Oh nice, hadn't heard of that. I love Scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan C Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Start with Pure Data and see how it goes, there's some really good tutorials out there that will get you up and running. I mainly use SC because I like the way it sounds more than Max/MSP but both are excellent to work with, and I find that they change the way you approach music in some really rewarding ways. I don't use Reaktor, so I can't say much about it, except that I really didn't like it when I tried it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mollekula Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 here's another audio programming environment, based on Scheme: http://impromptu.mos...m.au/index.html OSX only, but really powerful, it's all CoreAudio.. OMG this looks amazing!! its so inspiring discovering tools you never even heard of. Like a while ago when i discovered Usine, another fantastic piece of software, but i have never tried it. Unfortunately I couldnt use it because its OSX only and Im running XP, I personally find it the most stable and simple Windows, and operating much faster than the latest versions. Thanks for bringing it up anywayz. The majority of people that I asked about these programs preferred Max to the rest. So i thought to give it ago, I must admit that the terror that I looked at MaxMSP a year ago is gradually fading away. I can only say that Im excited, and Im seriously reconsidering using Reaktor for the time being. I think Im falling in love with Max, and since everybody says it has similar environment with PD im definitely gonna use PD as well. It took me easier to understand the workflow from the first simplest tutorials and readings i did, probably my latest studies about basic synthesis have helped too. Its all new to me and its the boost i was looking for, to keep myself inspired, and keep working on the sounds, Max definitely makes you think differently the more u use it, and opens up a totally new world of sound. From the moment I managed to understand how to assemble a simple sine wave osc and made it sound, i had to go further. I stayed all day long building up simple patches, managed to make a Theremin like sci-fi noise generator, a simple granular synthesis type of thingy, a stereo echo effect, and today wanna try making the Jonny Greenwood effect. So, i love this world im getting into, its a totally new experience for me. Its all fun assembling patches, but how you guys would suggest I make a proper progression from simple stuff and learning exactly what it means that Im doing, towards more complicated patterns and understanding of synthesis Max can offer? Some lines or links would be highly appreciated. Thanks once again you guys, your help has been invaluable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ascdi Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I was on a brief impromptu jag, but I think I'm off now. It's not REALLY suited for synthesis because mostly it expects you to use AUs for sound generation. But if you want to really freakily sequence some plugins that's ideally what its for, to me. Super intriguing, but I found stateless functional programming for music to be kind of a contradiction. I mean ideally you don't mutate state, it being Scheme and all, but that makes things like even a simple metronome kind of a contortion to implement. Depends on how much you really feel like diving into Scheme, I guess. I use Reaktor most of the time and agree with what everyone here has said about it. Event processing is not its strength, but it's amazingly fast and powerful for synthesis, and the plugin integration is fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mollekula Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Thanx man, Im taking it into consideration. Im definitely going to use Reaktor (yes, that day will come :) at some time in the future. But I think that working with max or PD for some time and learning synthesis while building it and understanding its nature, will help me enter Reaktor and get accustomed to its environment. I mean, Ive been making sounds for sometime now and there is a huge road in front of me to learn things, but synthesis is a different thing. Im still in the process of studying the basic forms of synthesis with available VST synths, i try to experiment also to create the sounds. So when the moment comes when you say, OK, now its time to choose which one of these you would like to begin with, its quite a dilemma. Since you have to devote some time to learn the software and work with it, the option of jumping from one software to another does not work. I ve been scratching max for few days and tweaking whatever possible i can make. Im really liking it here, but what you guys say about Reaktor has given me some space to think over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryancolecreate Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Does anyone have any interesting supercollider patches they might like to post? I'd love to jump into that again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryancolecreate Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 ya I'd love to get into Max, but it's just to damn expensive for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polymershapes Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 any newbs to puredata or supercollider want to team up autechre style... we can supercollide our balls to the wall and make ambient electronic fizzings like you've never heard before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryancolecreate Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 haha ya I've done some stuff with puredata. It's great. Max is just so fresh and so clean clean. Also sysex is broken in PD (blows). I need to make a patch editor for the cz-101 damn it. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psn Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I finally got going with SC thanks to this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryancolecreate Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I did try to get Max once, but you have to use that stupid universal demo remover thing and I could never get it working. I don't really trust using that on my work computer anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wahrk Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Strangely enough, ChucK is the only one I've actually done much with. I really like how it handles time. The latest windows builds seem to freak out with noise and buffer underruns though, so I haven't done anything with it in years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hanratty Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 off-topic question: Do you think some soft-synth developer will be able to make a completely software version of the Nord Modular? I used to have one and miss it, although it became a pain to use with a mac. Is it too difficult to emulate? With all the cool software that already exists it seems that it could be accomplished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryancolecreate Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 don't see why not, I'm sure the nord is 100% digital anyways. It would be sweet to build a net book or something into a rack box like that and then just run some big fatty modular softsynth. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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