People

[kokoon]

9gag generation. Memes. Internet as a communication medium is being (ab)used in the most shallow, banal way imaginable. And this attitude towards both humour and serious subjects has now become acceptable in the offline world as well.

 

I don't think I can take much more of this. Are people really getting dumber? Why is "trolling" now so cool? Did I miss some cultural stage that could explain all this? In a world where there's so much trolling going on, how can it still be considered cool?

 

Did I get old? What happened to sincerity? It's not a virtue anymore?

 

edit: some spelling, thanks lump

[Npoess]

*trolls the shit out of this thread*

 

[lumpenprol]

abused

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(trololol)

 

 

 

 

 

yeah, I sometimes can't relate, but there are so many articulate and smart people on the web too, typing out reams of thoughtful stuff. I always find gems in the comment sections of huffpo or reddit or whatever that restore some of my faith in humanity

[olo]

in agreement so far with all posts in this thread

[RichieBees]

dont talk shit about memes i can only express myself through "feels" etc etc

[Friendly Foil]

I'm sick and tired of people who never take anything seriously.

[luke viia]

my guess is that you're just more connected to stupid people now than you were in the past. there are 7 billion people. roughly half of them are now online. most of them are not online to do much more than be social, spout their opinions, and buy things.

 

 

as we can see in this totally sweet qualitative graph i found on the internet somewhere, the people you hang around with (the independent variable, your choice) affect what you do with your life (the dependent variable, not your choice). so, if you're frustrated, find an intellectual sanctuary (this may be a series of good books, a volunteer committee meeting of some sort, or a puzzle, whatever. conversation, online or offline, is not the first place i'd look to be convinced that people are intelligent).

 

also, never underestimate your own failings. it would be unfortunate to be an intellectual version of Root5's ex-girlfriend.

[Ragnar]

[SR4]

again, going on the generalized premise, I dunno if it's so much "people are getting dumber" as "people are smarter than they think they are".

 

With information so readily accessible, most people are satisfied that "knowledge" means being able to click and bring up a link rather than slowly digest the information within their own braniac lexicon.

 

I've been thinking about this premise for ages and what it all means like we are in some sort of Baudrillian nightmare scenario, but I have thought so much on it that my thoughts are completely disorganized. So I'll just stick with the previous statements and not extrapolate.

[doublename]

9gag generation. Memes. Internet as a communication medium is being (ob)used in the most shallow, banal way imaginable. And this attitude towards both humour and serious subjects has now become acceptable in the offline world as well.

I don't think I can take much more of this. Are people really getting dumber? Why is "trolling" now so cool? Did I miss some cultural stage that could explain all this? In a world where there's so much trolling going on, how can it still be considered cool?

Did I get old? What happened to sincerity? It's not a virtue anymore?

my guess is that you're just more connected to stupid people now than you were in the past. there are 7 billion people. roughly half of them are now online. most of them are not online to do much more than be social, spout their opinions, and buy things.

 

 

as we can see in this totally sweet qualitative graph i found on the internet somewhere, the people you hang around with (the independent variable, your choice) affect what you do with your life (the dependent variable, not your choice). so, if you're frustrated, find an intellectual sanctuary (this may be a series of good books, a volunteer committee meeting of some sort, or a puzzle, whatever. conversation, online or offline, is not the first place i'd look to be convinced that people are intelligent).

 

also, never underestimate your own failings. it would be unfortunate to be an intellectual version of Root5's ex-girlfriend.

I'd agree that OP is mistaking increased exposure to stupid people for an increase in the number of them. As for for the death of sincerity, David Foster Wallace was writing about this over 20 years ago. I think he saw it as his generation's reaction to the false sincerity of television. So it's a legitimate cultural phenomenon, but not one that can be blamed on the internet.

[Guest]

I'll gladly take cultural trolling over cultural sincerity.

 

but fuck people

[kokoon]

I just wanted to to write down some thoughts, just a short rant and then see where it goes. I'm very bitter at the moment, very disappointed and angry with many people, state of things, even myself. I will have to search for purposeful things that I can do for living. That would help very much, working in an advertising agency is a torture.

 

Luke viia, thanks for your insight, what exactly did you mean by underestimating own feelings?

 

I know it's not the internet. But I'm pretty sure it's involved in there somehow. It has fundamentally changed the way we communicate. This impacts our relationships and inevitably transforms us, personally and collectively.

 

Doublename, nice to know I'm not only imagining the death of sincerity. I think it's one of the most critical virtues that could help with many wrongs of our time.

I'll gladly take cultural trolling over cultural sincerity.

 

but fuck people

What?

[logakght]

yes we're getting dumber... al that bullshit about conquering other planets and travelling in spaceships are a lie, we won't do that... next generations we'll be so fucking dumb it would my like a Restone Age

[joshuatxuk]

We're at crossroads. Despite a vast accessibility to knowledge and information, and the immediate archiving of all of it, cultural hegemony (I mean these broadly, not the marxist term necessarily) is stronger than ever. *(Most) people, including intelligent individuals, are currently talking about Yeezus instead of the NSA leaks. I have not read it yet, but I was very much struck by the arguments made by Lanier in You_Are_Not_a_Gadget.

 

 

 

In his book You Are Not a Gadget (2010), Lanier criticizes what he perceives as the hive mind of Web 2.0 (wisdom of the crowd) and describes the open source and open content expropriation of intellectual production as a form of "Digital Maoism".^[14] Lanier argues that Web 2.0 developments have retarded progress and innovation and glorified the collective at the expense of the individual. He criticizes Wikipedia and Linux as examples of this problem; Wikipedia for what he sees as: its "mob rule" by anonymous editors, the weakness of its non-scientific content, and its bullying of experts. Lanier also argues that there are limitations to certain aspects of the open source and content movement in that they lack the ability to create anything truly new and innovative. For example, Lanier argues that the open source movement didn't create the iPhone. In another example, Lanier claims that Web 2.0 makes search engines lazy, destroys the potential of innovative websites like Thinkquest, and hampers the communication of ideas like mathematics to a wider audience. Lanier further argues that the open source approach has destroyed opportunities for the middle class to finance content creation, and results in the concentration of wealth in a few individuals—"the lords of the clouds"—people who, more by virtue of luck rather than true innovation, manage to insert themselves as content concentrators at strategic times and locations in the cloud.

 

I'm optimistic - for instance I gave up on my obsessive following of mp3 blogs (and then streaming soundcloud tracks, RSS feeds from multiple music blogs, etc) and now find myself engaging more with cassette labels and niche scenes and specific artists one-by-one. That's just pop music, but I think the same kind of reaction is being had by many.

 

As for the cruelty of mobs and individuals online, people IRL are still redeeming. One day a teen commits suicide from being cyberbullied, another day a woman harassed on a bus gets thousands raised for her to take a vacation, with sincere apologies from strangers, thanks to reddit. I just feel like there's a manufactured dichotomy that people buy into instead of actually feel consciously. People get into bubbles of though and ideology online that prevents them from ever having to experience facts and realities that would contradict their beliefs. Corporations and political behemoths let movements like the Tea Party phenomenon get co-opted into GOP agendas and let the Occupy movement become mislabeled, misrepresented, and encouraged to implode. It all needs to collapse in some way (agree with BoC in this actually) - how and when? I don't know.

 

Still, I'm optimistic. The core of society and humanity has always been flawed, it's just now it's more exaggerated and amplified than ever. And memes say a lot too - some smaller and more niche memes are amazingly funny and strangely endearing - look at watmm in-jokes for example, or the absurd comments on say, YTP videos. That makes up for 9gag, hipster meta bullshit, racist comments on news sites, etc. Remember, the 20th century had some lameass cultural phenomenons the same time underground and indie scenes flourished. Things are just particularly confused and overwhelming right now.

[Guest RadarJammer]

this stage of internet and communication is like that awkward stage in video game history when arcades had those 5$ a game virtual reality setups and everyone would crowd around watching someone blow their allowance to wear an uncomfortable helmet and strain their eyes to play a game that couldn't be won. it'll pass

[Guest theSun]

the problem starts, imo, with a broken education system that teaches us how to retain knowledge. we should be learning how to analyze and plan for the real world, using knowledge that is easily available (30 years ago you had to go to a library/open a "book" or know someone for knowledge). this is a generation that is going to have so many capabilities compared with our parents. that's always how it goes but computers really change the game.

 

how useful is it to memorize information for short term regurgitation? one thing that would improve things is challenging critical thinking at young ages.

[Guest A/D]

This week's XKCD actually sort of addresses your point.

 

 

 

 

I actually feel like the internet is promoting sincerity and connection, long-term. We've seen an outburst of abuse by people who have suddenly discovered it's possible. But by and large I think the tone of the internet has improved in the last 10 years or so. Certainly true of this site, and not just because of the posting guidelines.

[RichieBees]

boohoo people are so dumb why dont they all listen to INTELLIGENT dance music its just like idiocracy no babes wanna bang smart dudes all women are whores

get over yourselves pls

[joshuatxuk]

Here's another good argument I felt was very relevant to my own internet habits, including my inability to focus, memory issues, or being able to retain detailed knowledge as easily, literally entitled Is Google_Making_Us_Stupid?

 

the problem starts, imo, with a broken education system that teaches us how to retain knowledge. we should be learning how to analyze and plan for the real world, using knowledge that is easily available (30 years ago you had to go to a library/open a "book" or know someone for knowledge). this is a generation that is going to have so many capabilities compared with our parents. that's always how it goes but computers really change the game.

 

how useful is it to memorize information for short term regurgitation? one thing that would improve things is challenging critical thinking at young ages.

 

That explain a lot of superficial knowledge among many our age or, more broadly speaking, below the age of 40. An example: my dad was a navigator in the U.S. Air Force, he actually can navigate with stars and sextants, as that was taught to him in late 80s as even then radar was the main system and GPS did not exist. When he himself was training with new navigators, he said while they were smart and qualified on paper, they were absolutely clueless without any digital devices. In a funny twist, he's become lazy himself, and now can't seem to drive anywhere easily without a GPS device in his car. My point is technology can just as easily crippling.

 

There's a louis c.k. joke about how a janitor in his 50s from Boston is smarter than a NYU graduate in a way that can't be gauged easily, because the janitor has a different set of experiences and necessary skills than the NYU student. Even now I know people who graduated from college who are less talented, less skilled, and less apt than some high school dropouts (ones with jobs and stable lives nonetheless) I also know. The pace of social media and the ease of, well, everything, is discouraging, but there's going to be a point where it'll have to be dealt with. Or as a society we'll turn into Idiocracy for a bit I suppose.

 

Some other Louis CK goodness...

 

http://youtu.be/kqZskUjcAhY

 

[SR4]

the problem starts, imo, with a broken education system that teaches us how to retain knowledge. we should be learning how to analyze and plan for the real world, using knowledge that is easily available (30 years ago you had to go to a library/open a "book" or know someone for knowledge). this is a generation that is going to have so many capabilities compared with our parents. that's always how it goes but computers really change the game.

 

how useful is it to memorize information for short term regurgitation? one thing that would improve things is challenging critical thinking at young ages.

 

but thats exactly the problem, not the solution. from my teaching experience short term regurgitation is EXACTLY what the internet reinforces. don't know about the Jacksonian era? Skim over a wikipedia article and suddenly you are an expert. Except you aren't. You don't understand the nuances behind the actual term itself, and you haven't bothered to make those synaptic/linguistic/whatever connections to other areas of the subject or to the world at large.

 

I can't tell you how many times I've seen very intelligent students claim that they understood a particular problem/issue, and then proceeded to give a verbatim copy/paste from some book summary or wiki. Then you ask a followup question and you enter an educational void.

 

It's not just about memorization, it's about bridging connections n your mind by reading dense materials aka. journal articles, books, etc. And the internet has spoiled people to the point where they put their minds on autopilot and let the wikis do the work for them. And that is why they vote for idiots.

[Guest RadarJammer]

boohoo people are so dumb why dont they all listen to INTELLIGENT dance music its just like idiocracy no babes wanna bang smart dudes all women are whores

get over yourselves pls

 

its another RichieBeesShitPost™

[beerwolf]

This is the last place I would find solace imo

 

I come on here, crack a beer open and talk about tunes. Not to find peace with the human race.

 

In real life I act with sincerity and with virtue. On-line I can act like a bit of a cunt for my own amusement. It don't matter much because in reality im a chipper chap. Thats it really.

[joshuatxuk]

This is the last place I would find solace imo

 

I come on here, crack a beer open and talk about tunes. Not to find peace with the human race.

 

In real life I act with sincerity and with virtue. On-line I can act like a bit of a cunt for my own amusement. It don't matter much because in reality im a chipper chap. Thats it really.

 

Well said.

 

I'm far lamer terms I'll add that for me personally, I simply find it more enjoyable, healthy, and fulfilling to be positive. Not delusional or naive - I still rant and go through emotions of frustration and cynicism, but I don't dwell on it. I move on. There's too much to do and see and hear in this world to get pissy and angry all the time.

 

A lot of this has been a conscious effort of mine in the last 4 or 5 years, realizing the irrelevance of the mass stupidity of the masses at the end of the day, which is exemplified above all else in social media and internet nonsense, and taking comfort that plenty of less vocal and far better human beings exist out in the world. I personally had an existential crisis in late 2010/early 2011 watching society suddenly and stupidly re-defining "dubstep," a genre and scene I held in high esteem - I realized this was futile. What was done was done. I also suddenly related to every old punk, emo fan (original scene), metalhead, raver, etc I'd met in the past. Some were bitter cynics and some weren't, and I decided to be the latter.

There's plenty of fulfilling things to do that will never register you online on FB, tumbler or twitter: Reading a novel. Listen to a great but obscure album over and over again. Hiking on a trail that most people haven't and will never see. Going to a unique live show where no one is recording it with their fucking cellphone. Watching your favorite movie for the 100th time. Less is more. Being a unique and happy individual in 2013 is a easier and easier the more and more you stop trying to pay attention to and interact with the larger mainstream masses online.

[YO303]

9gag generation. Memes. Internet as a communication medium is being (ab)used in the most shallow, banal way imaginable. And this attitude towards both humour and serious subjects has now become acceptable in the offline world as well.

 

I don't think I can take much more of this. Are people really getting dumber? Why is "trolling" now so cool? Did I miss some cultural stage that could explain all this? In a world where there's so much trolling going on, how can it still be considered cool?

 

Did I get old? What happened to sincerity? It's not a virtue anymore?

 

edit: some spelling, thanks lump

 

You didnt get old, memes and shit like that are not funny but it allows unfunny cunts to be perceived as funny thats why they are popular.

 

It seems that everybody wants to be a comedian but not everyone is funny.

 

Memes are unoriginal boring content and whoever posts/buys into memes are unoriginal boring fucks.

[luke viia]

We're at crossroads. Despite a vast accessibility to knowledge and information, and the immediate archiving of all of it, cultural hegemony (I mean these broadly, not the marxist term necessarily) is stronger than ever. *(Most) people, including intelligent individuals, are currently talking about Yeezus instead of the NSA leaks. I have not read it yet, but I was very much struck by the arguments made by Lanier in You_Are_Not_a_Gadget.

 

 

 

In his book You Are Not a Gadget (2010), Lanier criticizes what he perceives as the hive mind of Web 2.0 (wisdom of the crowd) and describes the open source and open content expropriation of intellectual production as a form of "Digital Maoism".^[14] Lanier argues that Web 2.0 developments have retarded progress and innovation and glorified the collective at the expense of the individual. He criticizes Wikipedia and Linux as examples of this problem; Wikipedia for what he sees as: its "mob rule" by anonymous editors, the weakness of its non-scientific content, and its bullying of experts. Lanier also argues that there are limitations to certain aspects of the open source and content movement in that they lack the ability to create anything truly new and innovative. For example, Lanier argues that the open source movement didn't create the iPhone. In another example, Lanier claims that Web 2.0 makes search engines lazy, destroys the potential of innovative websites like Thinkquest, and hampers the communication of ideas like mathematics to a wider audience. Lanier further argues that the open source approach has destroyed opportunities for the middle class to finance content creation, and results in the concentration of wealth in a few individuals—"the lords of the clouds"—people who, more by virtue of luck rather than true innovation, manage to insert themselves as content concentrators at strategic times and locations in the cloud.

 

I'm optimistic - for instance I gave up on my obsessive following of mp3 blogs (and then streaming soundcloud tracks, RSS feeds from multiple music blogs, etc) and now find myself engaging more with cassette labels and niche scenes and specific artists one-by-one. That's just pop music, but I think the same kind of reaction is being had by many.

 

As for the cruelty of mobs and individuals online, people IRL are still redeeming. One day a teen commits suicide from being cyberbullied, another day a woman harassed on a bus gets thousands raised for her to take a vacation, with sincere apologies from strangers, thanks to reddit. I just feel like there's a manufactured dichotomy that people buy into instead of actually feel consciously. People get into bubbles of though and ideology online that prevents them from ever having to experience facts and realities that would contradict their beliefs. Corporations and political behemoths let movements like the Tea Party phenomenon get co-opted into GOP agendas and let the Occupy movement become mislabeled, misrepresented, and encouraged to implode. It all needs to collapse in some way (agree with BoC in this actually) - how and when? I don't know.

 

Still, I'm optimistic. The core of society and humanity has always been flawed, it's just now it's more exaggerated and amplified than ever. And memes say a lot too - some smaller and more niche memes are amazingly funny and strangely endearing - look at watmm in-jokes for example, or the absurd comments on say, YTP videos. That makes up for 9gag, hipster meta bullshit, racist comments on news sites, etc. Remember, the 20th century had some lameass cultural phenomenons the same time underground and indie scenes flourished. Things are just particularly confused and overwhelming right now.

 

Good post, and that book sounds like just the kind of opposing viewpoint I would do well to take in. *puts on wishlist*

 

@kokoon: I earlier said 'underestimating your failings,' not feelings, haha. Basically I just meant to remind us that it's very easy to ignore our own shortcomings when thinking about the way our peers conduct themselves. I'm guilty of this, and despite the lip service I pay to humility, it's hard to keep those thoughts in the front of my mind all the time, so I thought it was worth repeating here. good luck with the outbreak of cynicism you're going through -- i think working in an ad agency would make me feel very similar. Joshua's words above on the reasons to remain positive are helpful imo, that's the same way I try to think of things.