Religion

[skotosa]

Let me ask yall something very simple.

 

Does the world looked saved to yall?

 

Jesus died for our sins right?

 

Does this world looked saved to anyone?

 

No... This is not a saved, world. And you are delusional to think so, which probably why you believe in a God.

[chim]

Back in these times I could totally link this idea to that of God, but it remained a rather distant link since the word fractal seemed to fit better what I had in mind : something geometrical, logic that has no real, volutive implication in real life.

 

Why not? Why is there no implication in real life for the awareness that there is an ultimate fabric of existence and deep down you are that fabric playing around with itself?

 

Now back to the psychological side of my experience : remember when I was saying I was a messiah/prophet ? Personally, I remembered hardcore scientist members (and by scientist, I mean science-ist) made fun of me. They thought I was crazy because I was stating I was like Jesus. This is paradoxical. On one hand they think prophets are nuts who talk out of their ass, on the other hand I cannot be like Jesus because deep down they still consider Jesus to be a hero/genius/great-man etc.

Not "I am mad because I think I am Jesus"

But "I think I am Jesus because I am mad"

Just look around : Jesus muhammad, Buddha. They all experienced hardcore hallucinations. They were mad. Like me, like many people who think they are the sons, nthe reincarnation, whatever morphism link them to Jesus, Muhammad or any other prophet.

 

One might say that having the idea of being a person wrapped in a bag of skin is a pretty intense hallucination. Madness depends on the observer. Having completely forgotten the most basic unmistakable fact of being and existence, and instead following the schema of the hallucination of the ego, which only has any use as a problem-solving scanner in the interest of survival and isn't applicable to the ultimate meaning of the word you, is madness to people like Jesus, Muhammad and Buddha.

 

The essential issue of your reasoning, the way I see it anyway, is that you're attempting to put into logic that which precedes logic, put into language that which precedes language. So your vocabulary goes into the area of auto-feedback and fractals and other terms that do the subject absolutely no justice and only leads to frustration because the dissection kills the frog. The reasoning of these prophets that you define as mad is that it is pointless to even attempt doing so, and that all you can be, as a result of the awareness of that fact, is ordinary and ecstatic. Maybe you'll end up saying funny stuff like "I am the Father", which leads to unfortunate conclusions of people who haven't seen what you've seen.

 

He's the only one to have asked this question. Apart from him it's the good old suffer-to-succes and ingurgitate-the-so-called-perfection-of-the-theory-I-m-teaching you. In short, bear your cross and shut up. like Jesus. This is mainly what western science is about. Bearing a cross while whipping yourself, bring Jesus and Longinus at the same time.

 

This is because the West has always been about Jesus, it (the secular part) just got rid of the iconography... Which is why there's no room for living just to live. This is the funniest thing really if you think about it.

[chenGOD]

lol this thread.

you guys, you made babar cry!

[goDel]

People who adopt Godel as their hero? That's what she does! The one! ;D

 

edit: @ babars post a page ago.

[azatoth]

Who is this Godel? I only know of Gödel.

[goDel]

He must hold the key to EVERYTHING. Including God and not-God.

 

Where is Babar when you need him. Only he can confirm with definite authority. He must be this threads meta-God.

[azatoth]

I'm So Meta, Even This Acronym.

[Guest Babar]

*eats Chinese tart*

[goDel]

fractal tarts FTW!

[Guest Babar]

[yfctv name=chimera slot mom' timestamp='1334683177' post='1801197]

[yfctv name=Babar' timestamp='1334556872' post='1800242] Back in these times I could totally link this idea to that of God, but it remained a rather distant link since the word fractal seemed to fit better what I had in mind : something geometrical, logic that has no real, volutive implication in real life.[/yfctv]

 

Why not? Why is there no implication in real life for the awareness that there is an ultimate fabric of existence and deep down you are that fabric playing around with itself?

 

[yfctv]Now back to the psychological side of my experience : remember when I was saying I was a messiah/prophet ? Personally, I remembered hardcore scientist members (and by scientist, I mean science-ist) made fun of me. They thought I was crazy because I was stating I was like Jesus. This is paradoxical. On one hand they think prophets are nuts who talk out of their ass, on the other hand I cannot be like Jesus because deep down they still consider Jesus to be a hero/genius/great-man etc.

Not "I am mad because I think I am Jesus"

But "I think I am Jesus because I am mad"

Just look around : Jesus muhammad, Buddha. They all experienced hardcore hallucinations. They were mad. Like me, like many people who think they are the sons, nthe reincarnation, whatever morphism link them to Jesus, Muhammad or any other prophet.[/yfctv]

 

One might say that having the idea of being a person wrapped in a bag of skin is a pretty intense hallucination. Madness depends on the observer. Having completely forgotten the most basic unmistakable fact of being and existence, and instead following the schema of the hallucination of the ego, which only has any use as a problem-solving scanner in the interest of survival and isn't applicable to the ultimate meaning of the word you, is madness to people like Jesus, Muhammad and Buddha.

 

The essential issue of your reasoning, the way I see it anyway, is that you're attempting to put into logic that which precedes logic, put into language that which precedes language. So your vocabulary goes into the area of auto-feedback and fractals and other terms that do the subject absolutely no justice and only leads to frustration because the dissection kills the frog. The reasoning of these prophets that you define as mad is that it is pointless to even attempt doing so, and that all you can be, as a result of the awareness of that fact, is ordinary and ecstatic. Maybe you'll end up saying funny stuff like "I am the Father", which leads to unfortunate conclusions of people who haven't seen what you've seen.

 

[yfctv]He's the only one to have asked this question. Apart from him it's the good old suffer-to-succes and ingurgitate-the-so-called-perfection-of-the-theory-I-m-teaching you. In short, bear your cross and shut up. like Jesus. This is mainly what western science is about. Bearing a cross while whipping yourself, bring Jesus and Longinus at the same time.[/yfctv]

 

This is because the West has always been about Jesus, it (the secular part) just got rid of the iconography... Which is why there's no room for living just to live. This is the funniest thing really if you think about it.

[/yfctv]

 

100% agree with what you said. You're wise. There is just a bit of misunderstanding at the beginning of your reply.

[yfctv]Why not? Why is there no implication in real life for the awareness that there is an ultimate fabric of existence and deep down you are that fabric playing around with itself?[/[yfctv]. That's what I was saying actually, stating that I first conceived it logically before seeing the life side of it (through that synchronicities). By the way there is a lot to say about divinities (politheist gods) and this thread has only focused on God with a capital G. 

 

You perfectly understood what I ' m doing. I'm very bad at politics. Shame on me. But I don't want to be a fucking monk. I want to extract technology out of this thing. Maybe it's hopeless, but I think I can have a try. Don't you want to talk to trees and clouds and traffic jams ? I think that could be pretty fun. +that d imply creating truth which is pretty dim (autocorrect of idm !)

 

[yfctv name=goDel' timestamp='1334685522' post='1801225]

He must hold the key to EVERYTHING. Including God and not-God.

 

Where is Babar when you need him. Only he can confirm with definite authority. He must be this threads meta-God.

[/yfctv]

 

The only thing I can confirm is that you can't confirm. 

 

 

But yeah. Thank you for your post chimera. I think I'll just shut the fuck up now. Instead of verbalizing my opinion, i'll focus on coding them. And if I hear something I don't like (I mean in conversations with a tsubject like this one, I'll contain everything within. Most likely qi'll frown.

[Guest Babar]

Just popping in to say :

@chimera : thank you

@all : I know who's god ! He's among us ! --> chimera slot mom is god

[SR4]

I would like those people who don't believe in creation to take a good look around them and then make a list of all the things that you have real proof of which have not been created.

oh god.. this thread again

 

I would like those people who don't believe in creation to take a good look around them and then make a list of all the things that you have real proof of which have not been created.

 

first provide your definition of creation.

opposite to chance.

 

Has anything that you see around you just appeared from nowhere, nothing (thin air) or has someone made it. We live in a world of created objects right?

 

 

You have not listened to a single reasonable, rational thing posted by anyone in the past 18 pages of this. You cannot possibly misconstrue what others have said in here more than you already have, and that could only be done by either reading it and being physically unable to comprehend how words fit together into sentences, or to know that you have a legitimate threat to your belief system so you censor and create some revisionist paradise where your views are unassailable. Well done my friends, you are why I despise religion.

 

(Gmanyo, I don't mean you, I feel like you've come a long way from the beginning of this thread in terms of your ability to criticize what you previously took to be doctrinal truth. )

 

 

edit: Slightly more polite version, because I don't want this thread to be closed.

[SR4]

Let me ask yall something very simple.

 

Does the world looked saved to yall?

 

Jesus died for our sins right?

 

Does this world looked saved to anyone?

 

No... This is not a saved, world. And you are delusional to think so, which probably why you believe in a God.

 

it would be hypocritical of me not to address the merits of this argument.

 

The world hasn't been saved according to Christian doctrine in terms of a utopian paradise. The death of Jesus was (according to Xtians, remember, I do not believe this) in order to restore and overturn "original sin" and re-establish God's covenant with humanity.

[sheatheman]

Let me ask yall something very simple.

 

Does the world looked saved to yall?

 

Jesus died for our sins right?

 

Does this world looked saved to anyone?

 

No... This is not a saved, world. And you are delusional to think so, which probably why you believe in a God.

 

it would be hypocritical of me not to address the merits of this argument.

 

The world hasn't been saved according to Christian doctrine in terms of a utopian paradise. The death of Jesus was (according to Xtians, remember, I do not believe this) in order to restore and overturn "original sin" and re-establish God's covenant with humanity.

 

According to the bible, and also what I believe:

 

Jesus died as one final sacrifice for our sins. The bible says if someone says with their lips "Jesus is Lord" and believes in their heart that God rose him from the grave, he will be saved. He died for everyone.

 

But you have to follow Jesus to be saved, because Jesus modeled perfectly how we should live. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except by me."

 

The world doesn't look saved because people still sin, and also because a lot of christians get it wrong and scream "SODOMITES" on the street instead of living like Jesus lived, which was to have dinner with sodomites, prostitutes and tax collectors, and meet them where they were.

 

The world doesn't look saved because it is starved for authenticity.

[skotosa]

Let me ask yall something very simple.

 

Does the world looked saved to yall?

 

Jesus died for our sins right?

 

Does this world looked saved to anyone?

 

No... This is not a saved, world. And you are delusional to think so, which probably why you believe in a God.

 

it would be hypocritical of me not to address the merits of this argument.

 

The world hasn't been saved according to Christian doctrine in terms of a utopian paradise. The death of Jesus was (according to Xtians, remember, I do not believe this) in order to restore and overturn "original sin" and re-establish God's covenant with humanity.

 

According to the bible, and also what I believe:

 

Jesus died as one final sacrifice for our sins. The bible says if someone says with their lips "Jesus is Lord" and believes in their heart that God rose him from the grave, he will be saved. He died for everyone.

 

But you have to follow Jesus to be saved, because Jesus modeled perfectly how we should live. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except by me."

 

The world doesn't look saved because people still sin, and also because a lot of christians get it wrong and scream "SODOMITES" on the street instead of living like Jesus lived, which was to have dinner with sodomites, prostitutes and tax collectors, and meet them where they were.

 

The world doesn't look saved because it is starved for authenticity.

 

Why would God allow us to Sin?

[lumpenprol]

freedom of choice,dood

[SR4]

yeah, Im not gonna argue the Xtian point of view because I think its ridiculous, but like lumpy said, free will was given as a means (depending on who you ask, Im gonna go with Augustine) to gain grace and thus earn salvation.

 

Essentially God would leave it to humans to battle the duality of self: lust (earthly pleasures) with intelligence.

[Candiru]

OK let's play then.

 

If God had a plan from the very beginning, is all knowing, omniscient, etc, we don't have free will. We are only pawns on God's chess board, carrying out his plan. People have to be held accountable for their actions though, don't they? Let's hold God accountable for a second.

 

He already knows who is going to heaven, hell, what newborn baby will be burned alive in a cloud of napalm fire, what 10 year boys old will be raped, castrated and sold into child slavery for prostitution, and who will invent fucking Facebook. Good and evil are merely constructs of the human mind and our morality is just a way to keep ourselves safe. Willful ignorance is not a virtue no matter what some ancient text tells you. Sleep tight.

[SR4]

pretty much the best answer one could provide on that topic.

 

 

I do think Hitchens put it particularly well when illustrating if he was in the position of Abraham he would have said, "No I will not kill my child. Fuck you." Sums up my position.

 

although a deist could make a very good counter argument to candiru, in that quite simply God has no impending knowledge.

[skotosa]

freedom of choice,dood

 

I thought when it came to God, everything was predetermined? Or is that different religious views of God based on the argument of determinism versus Free Will?

[SR4]

yeah it starts getting really fucking confusing at that point. im tired now but id be willing to try to explain parts of it tomorrow. and even then im still not even sure if ive got it right.

[doorjamb]

[lumpenprol]

freedom of choice,dood

 

I thought when it came to God, everything was predetermined? Or is that different religious views of God based on the argument of determinism versus Free Will?

 

I'm no expert on debating these matters, but I don't see a necessary conflict. If, for example, you think of God as the creator of our reality as a simulation, then he could still be all powerful but not predetermine the outcome of every human choice, right? Of course in the aggregate he would have set up the program, so he knows all the parameters (you can only ever choose between 1 and 2, but never 3, for example), and yet still not know what a person will choose at any given moment.

 

If we assume God's really curious to run this experiment on free will, then it follows that he would pull into the background/disappear after he set things in motion. So in fact, you wouldn't expect to find any evidence that there is a God, he would have hidden himself beyond your means to detect him.

 

Sure, like candiru said, we can judge him as a hypocrite according to his own (moral) laws, if we want. I think that's a much stronger argument than any argument against there being a god. If there is a god, I doubt he would be so crass as to give us a set of rules to follow.

[SR4]

thats pretty much deism in a nutshell. well said lumpy

[skotosa]

freedom of choice,dood

 

I thought when it came to God, everything was predetermined? Or is that different religious views of God based on the argument of determinism versus Free Will?

 

I'm no expert on debating these matters, but I don't see a necessary conflict. If, for example, you think of God as the creator of our reality as a simulation, then he could still be all powerful but not predetermine the outcome of every human choice, right? Of course in the aggregate he would have set up the program, so he knows all the parameters (you can only ever choose between 1 and 2, but never 3, for example), and yet still not know what a person will choose at any given moment.

 

If we assume God's really curious to run this experiment on free will, then it follows that he would pull into the background/disappear after he set things in motion. So in fact, you wouldn't expect to find any evidence that there is a God, he would have hidden himself beyond your means to detect him.

 

Sure, like candiru said, we can judge him as a hypocrite according to his own (moral) laws, if we want. I think that's a much stronger argument than any argument against there being a god. If there is a god, I doubt he would be so crass as to give us a set of rules to follow.

So we have either God being around, God Not being around, God not being and for each one he is either predetermined, giving us free will or giving us free will but with a predictable series of equation that in fact can be predetermined when analyzed.

 

I think what should be asked is not if God is real or not, but if he is real, then what is he exactly? Is he a living being? Multidimensional? Abstract? The Universe? From where does he hail how does he exist? He clearly has given as a scientific reality in which things can be measured and analyzed, solved whereby allowing us to manipulate the realty in which he has given us, to shape and mold the world around us, and us ourselves (Whether this be determined or not, it happens). So what is he? Then if he is real, does he wan to be worshiped? Can you worship a God that wants/needs to be worshiped?

 

These questions should be asked because this can alleviate many of the negative repercussions certain believes have and have had on people. Those negative things being what sway a lot of people from believes to begin with. Because if God is real or not, anyone can take advantage of that fact of not knowing and abuse it, use it to their advantage. That being done with fear and forcing people into having faith in stupid stuff. Gives control. If people can still feel like they can believe that God is real but still base life off of logical assumptions, reason and just thought and not blatant cause "God did it" thoughtless retorts, then let people believe in whatever they want. Bottom line being religion is pretty much irrelevent, some how some way things are the way they are, I see you, you see me so lets that be that and lets fucking make this life the best fucking shit we can daw. And whilst living life and learning new things and advancing technology and as a human race we discover mind blowing things about reality and do mind blowing things, heck the more we work together the sooner will know more and more truths. So don't doddle with religion folks.