Anti-Islaam Film

[chenGOD]

Eugene - Weber's argument has been largely overridden. And no, not by Jared Diamond, although he certainly does bring up some interesting points.

 

o rly ? i guess that's why he's considered the daddy of sociology (especially because of the strength of that thesis) and is taught back to back with marx in intro. to sociology courses.

 

you do understand that someone's methodology and approach can be taught because of historical relevance rather than the validity of their conclusions?

 

Yo, Aristotle totally rejected the heliocentric theory because he was a boss.

 

Eugene - Weber's argument has been largely overridden. And no, not by Jared Diamond, although he certainly does bring up some interesting points.

 

o rly ? i guess that's why he's considered the daddy of sociology (especially because of the strength of that thesis) and is taught back to back with marx in intro. to sociology courses.

 

The parts of Weber's work still taught today mainly concern his concepts of rationality, theories of the state and society etc. and his general approach, not so much the direct conclusions he drew.

The Protestant Ethics is no longer regarded up to date, neither in sociology, nor in theology.

 

yes

Eugene - Weber's argument has been largely overridden. And no, not by Jared Diamond, although he certainly does bring up some interesting points.

 

o rly ? i guess that's why he's considered the daddy of sociology (especially because of the strength of that thesis) and is taught back to back with marx in intro. to sociology courses.

 

The parts of Weber's work still taught today mainly concern his concepts of rationality, theories of the state and society etc. and his general approach, not so much the direct conclusions he drew.

The Protestant Ethics is no longer regarded up to date, neither in sociology, nor in theology.

 

to me weber is bureaucracy, rationality/disenchantment and his seminal work is protestant ethic. his methodology is not the focus of basic courses, as i understand he's meant to serve as a counterweight to marx. his general approach assumes significant influence of culture/religion as he focuses on the individual and his interpretation of reality as opposed to marx. i doubt you can dissociate weber's thought from "protestant ethic", it's very easy to poke holes in it now but still it's hardly irrelevant. interestingly enough, he even allows for rational action to be influenced by emotion and tradition.

To clarify - i don't think one can overlook culture completely, but in my opinion and analysis, culture can be though of in broader terms rather than as a specific determinant of outcomes.

Do societies only have one culture?

[eugene]

i think weber was quite specific about calvinist work ethic and its effects.

 

also, how come "protestant ethic" is "outdated" when it takes less than a minute of googling to find an academic article that points to numerous sources that state that it's still "a matter of debate" and then back weber's exact hypothesis with statistical analysis done in 2010 in switzerland with positive results ?

 

to spare us the exchange of tldr and sr4 childish sarcasm the answer is most probably "it's intertwined" (weber did take this into account as opposed to marx, btw). but to delve into this interconnectedness is just beyond me at this point.

 

 

BEHEAD THOSE WHO INSULT MAX WEBER !!

 

[delet...]

lol thanks.

So, this is how right wing Christians run amok. Think I prefer it to the muslim version. I know Christians have been cruel bastards in the past, but they've kind of gotten over that phase.

 

Phase ? Believing in a god is a symptom of a malady that can manifest in the harshest of ways. Especially these rational days, where only the most delusional (given all available evidence) continue the tradition. Transvaginal ultrasound anyone ? This is but the tip of the birth canal into what this personal affliction can conjure in it's adherents, as they try to one up each other in a race to prove supreme devotion.

[delet...]

Protestant work ethic is a myth. The rise of the British Empire was predicated upon slavery and colonial exploitation. It does help to tell your workforce to toil harder for less in the name of duty to the lord of course. I'll be hunting on my cleared highlands whilst they do this, of course.

[joshuatxuk]

lol thanks.

So, this is how right wing Christians run amok. Think I prefer it to the muslim version. I know Christians have been cruel bastards in the past, but they've kind of gotten over that phase.

 

I really hope the muslims get over their violent, barbaric phase too. It's not really doing themselves or anyone else any good.

 

And what's this garbage about atheists being more dangerous than muslims?! When have atheists caused violent behaviour and murder? And what's wrong with being a priviliged white person now?

What do you want, everyone living in poverty and fearing God?

 

I've come to this general talking point before, here's my take on it -

 

It has nothing to do with the religion or the followers themselves - Christians don't "run amok" here because we have a stable government, relative prosperity, and a long history of efforts to promote and encourage equal rights, free speech, and general respect. Any group of people of any extreme ideology are always at the cusp of acting violently against those they oppose. "Civilized" Americans were still lynching blacks in public squares of major cities in the early 20th century - not just redneck KKK members in the rural south. Anyone familiar with bloody, multi-faceted Lebanon's civil war knows that Christian factions committed war crimes in the power struggle.

 

In other words, I find surburban-dwelling hawkish, anti-Islamic evangelical Christians in America just as evil as your stereotypical anti-Semitic Arab citizen in Libya. And it's hard to be anti-Muslim in the US or Europe without having bedfellows with the far right and/or Christian or Jewish fundamentalists. As much as I despise the oppressive garbage that is Sharia, most legislators that pass anti-Sharia laws are the same ones who support the 10 commandments being on display at government buildings and think America is founded on "Judeo-Christian" ideals.

 

Agreed about the anti-atheist nonsense, at least in the broad claim that they lack morals simply for being non-believers. One could mention the atrocities of say, the USSR or the Red Terror in Spain in the Spanish Civil War - but those perpetrators didn't have the audacity to claim they were going to heaven for their acts. But people don't know history to begin with. After all, your typical Christian moron won't know a thing about the atrocities of the Crusades, and likewise your typical Islamic zealot isn't going to embrace the fact that Muslim societies have always flourished with secular governments (whether it's arguably stable countries like Turkey now or the broad achievements in science in the Islamic world in the middle ages)

[eugene]

Either that or the current war games in golan is the precursor for a land grab in syria, mythical kingdom of david lol.

in this vigorous spree of stupidity you exhibit in this thread one could almost miss this amusing blurb, will you indulge me what (objectively nonexistent) war games in golan i'm missing ?

[eugene]

hah, actually nm, there is a drill indeed. but i guess i can still ask you to bump this particular post after nothing actually happens ?

[Guest Xenblake]

lol thanks.

So, this is how right wing Christians run amok. Think I prefer it to the muslim version. I know Christians have been cruel bastards in the past, but they've kind of gotten over that phase.

 

I really hope the muslims get over their violent, barbaric phase too. It's not really doing themselves or anyone else any good.

 

And what's this garbage about atheists being more dangerous than muslims?! When have atheists caused violent behaviour and murder? And what's wrong with being a priviliged white person now?

What do you want, everyone living in poverty and fearing God?

 

I've come to this general talking point before, here's my take on it -

 

It has nothing to do with the religion or the followers themselves - Christians don't "run amok" here because we have a stable government, relative prosperity, and a long history of efforts to promote and encourage equal rights, free speech, and general respect. Any group of people of any extreme ideology are always at the cusp of acting violently against those they oppose. "Civilized" Americans were still lynching blacks in public squares of major cities in the early 20th century - not just redneck KKK members in the rural south. Anyone familiar with bloody, multi-faceted Lebanon's civil war knows that Christian factions committed war crimes in the power struggle.

 

In other words, I find surburban-dwelling hawkish, anti-Islamic evangelical Christians in America just as evil as your stereotypical anti-Semitic Arab citizen in Libya. And it's hard to be anti-Muslim in the US or Europe without having bedfellows with the far right and/or Christian or Jewish fundamentalists. As much as I despise the oppressive garbage that is Sharia, most legislators that pass anti-Sharia laws are the same ones who support the 10 commandments being on display at government buildings and think America is founded on "Judeo-Christian" ideals.

 

Agreed about the anti-atheist nonsense, at least in the broad claim that they lack morals simply for being non-believers. One could mention the atrocities of say, the USSR or the Red Terror in Spain in the Spanish Civil War - but those perpetrators didn't have the audacity to claim they were going to heaven for their acts. But people don't know history to begin with. After all, your typical Christian moron won't know a thing about the atrocities of the Crusades, and likewise your typical Islamic zealot isn't going to embrace the fact that Muslim societies have always flourished with secular governments (whether it's arguably stable countries like Turkey now or the broad achievements in science in the Islamic world in the middle ages)

 

 

good stuff

[Guest Xenblake]

edit:

 

It all points towards a lack of stability in society, rather than fear of their religion being under threat.

 

The whole religion thing is a sham, an excuse to be pissed off that their country and society is in ruins.

 

So they eagerly await the next piece of anti islaamicness and pounce like hungry animals, venting their general anger and frustrations in a way they know they'll be heard, at least by the media etc.

 

Have there even been any harsh reactions from more "established" muslims living normal lives in stable societies etc?

[beerwolf]

Everyone's an individual.

 

If we followed this simple understanding the world would be a much better place. That's pretty much all from me on this topic.

[Redruth]

the first substantial reactions regarding this film were on the eleventh of september correct?

[goDel]

hipsters are worse than atheists.

 

 

The more things change:

 

Nixon and Gandalf in his younger years?

[syd syside]

Substantial?

[gmanyo]

guys i think they're actually protesting how terrible this video is

[Dan C]

I say we give them the guy that made the movie.

 

It's the only way to be sure he doesn't make anything else.

[SR4]

lol thanks.

So, this is how right wing Christians run amok. Think I prefer it to the muslim version. I know Christians have been cruel bastards in the past, but they've kind of gotten over that phase.

 

I really hope the muslims get over their violent, barbaric phase too. It's not really doing themselves or anyone else any good.

 

And what's this garbage about atheists being more dangerous than muslims?! When have atheists caused violent behaviour and murder? And what's wrong with being a priviliged white person now?

What do you want, everyone living in poverty and fearing God?

 

I've come to this general talking point before, here's my take on it -

 

It has nothing to do with the religion or the followers themselves - Christians don't "run amok" here because we have a stable government, relative prosperity, and a long history of efforts to promote and encourage equal rights, free speech, and general respect. Any group of people of any extreme ideology are always at the cusp of acting violently against those they oppose. "Civilized" Americans were still lynching blacks in public squares of major cities in the early 20th century - not just redneck KKK members in the rural south. Anyone familiar with bloody, multi-faceted Lebanon's civil war knows that Christian factions committed war crimes in the power struggle.

 

In other words, I find surburban-dwelling hawkish, anti-Islamic evangelical Christians in America just as evil as your stereotypical anti-Semitic Arab citizen in Libya. And it's hard to be anti-Muslim in the US or Europe without having bedfellows with the far right and/or Christian or Jewish fundamentalists. As much as I despise the oppressive garbage that is Sharia, most legislators that pass anti-Sharia laws are the same ones who support the 10 commandments being on display at government buildings and think America is founded on "Judeo-Christian" ideals.

 

Agreed about the anti-atheist nonsense, at least in the broad claim that they lack morals simply for being non-believers. One could mention the atrocities of say, the USSR or the Red Terror in Spain in the Spanish Civil War - but those perpetrators didn't have the audacity to claim they were going to heaven for their acts. But people don't know history to begin with. After all, your typical Christian moron won't know a thing about the atrocities of the Crusades, and likewise your typical Islamic zealot isn't going to embrace the fact that Muslim societies have always flourished with secular governments (whether it's arguably stable countries like Turkey now or the broad achievements in science in the Islamic world in the middle ages)

 

 

good stuff

 

yes very well said!

[joshuatxuk]

Aww shucks everyone

 

edit:

 

It all points towards a lack of stability in society, rather than fear of their religion being under threat.

 

The whole religion thing is a sham, an excuse to be pissed off that their country and society is in ruins.

 

So they eagerly await the next piece of anti islaamicness and pounce like hungry animals, venting their general anger and frustrations in a way they know they'll be heard, at least by the media etc.

 

Have there even been any harsh reactions from more "established" muslims living normal lives in stable societies etc?

 

I gotcha, I figured that's what you really meant initially, and honestly it struck a chord with me because I've either felt that way in the past or had intelligent friends half-jokingly ask the same question.

 

I think somewhere in this thread a couple people gave better examples of outside factors that lead to these type of protests. The governments and media of such Muslim countries are certainly involved - in Libya it was being reported frequently by their news outlets that American networks were broadcasting the movie. It and Egypt are post-revolution states with high employments and especially on-edge security forces. So of course it's far more chaotic and violent compared to a couple hundred crazies outside of embassies in Europe or places like Turkey or Indonesia. Hell in Saudi Arabia it was just some people marching outside of a McDonalds.

[syd syside]

I see what you mean by it not necessarily having anything to do with the Religion itself but the environment that surrounds it... but I don't agree that that excuses the religion or Islamic extremism especially when there is a higher quantity of violence and oppression being used. The KKK is a niche group today and groups of that nature are vehemently shunned and spoken out against (Westboro Baptist Church) in Western society. While when we look at American Egyptian Muslims...

 

Muslim immigrants to the West have, in general, rejected taking the hard role of positively changing their countries of origin and inspiring them with new ideas of freedom, democracy and human rights. Instead, Muslims in America have focused on building mosques with aid from Saudi Arabia rather than protesting against Iran’s execution of apostates and stoning of women. They have focused on defending and lying about Sharia in America rather than teaching values of life liberty and pursuit of happiness to their countrymen. They have focused on a message of anti-Semitism, blaming America and holding Israel apartheid weeks, rather than on assimilating in America, initiating peace dialogue or holding an olive branch out to Jewish students.

Contrary to logic and to the brotherhood of all humans and cultures, American Muslim groups have maintained the same high levels of hate, anger and victim mentality that exists in many areas of the Muslim world.

And now Muslim Egyptians in the West have not only ignored the welfare of the 50% Egyptians who do not want to live under Sharia, but have also ignored the reasonable fears from Islam by the American public and instead insulted them as racists and “Islamophobes.”

 

Clearly it does have something to do with Religion/Islamic Culture.

[SR4]

Aww shucks everyone

 

edit:

 

It all points towards a lack of stability in society, rather than fear of their religion being under threat.

 

The whole religion thing is a sham, an excuse to be pissed off that their country and society is in ruins.

 

So they eagerly await the next piece of anti islaamicness and pounce like hungry animals, venting their general anger and frustrations in a way they know they'll be heard, at least by the media etc.

 

Have there even been any harsh reactions from more "established" muslims living normal lives in stable societies etc?

 

I gotcha, I figured that's what you really meant initially, and honestly it struck a chord with me because I've either felt that way in the past or had intelligent friends half-jokingly ask the same question.

 

I think somewhere in this thread a couple people gave better examples of outside factors that lead to these type of protests. The governments and media of such Muslim countries are certainly involved - in Libya it was being reported frequently by their news outlets that American networks were broadcasting the movie. It and Egypt are post-revolution states with high employments and especially on-edge security forces. So of course it's far more chaotic and violent compared to a couple hundred crazies outside of embassies in Europe or places like Turkey or Indonesia. Hell in Saudi Arabia it was just some people marching outside of a McDonalds.

 

Probably because the Saudi government would have absolutely no qualms brutally executing anyone acting violently without permission.

[syd syside]

Woops here's the quote I was looking for:

 

Darwish noted that half of the voters in Egypt voted against the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood and Sharia, while Egyptian voters in the USA supported the Islamist agenda in far greater percentages, perhaps even 95%. She finds that these voters in the USA are more radical than the Egyptian populace overall.

 

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/nonie-darwish/over-75-of-egyptian-americans-voted-for-islamist/

[awepittance]

heard an interesting theory the other day that while the Egyptian embassy protest was authentic and organic, the others were performed or instigated by carefully orchestrated hit squads, namely Libya.

 

The term 'October surprise' comes from when Carter was unable to squelch or do anything about the Iranian hostage crisis. The timing of this could be a sort of early october surprise, one that if it escalates and get worse could effectively Carterize Obama. Not to mention that the largest US military exercise in the straight or Hormuz is going on right now al while Israeli government officials are going on all the American TV networks doing a new push for a military assault on Iran.

 

interesting, salman rushdie on the daily show said much the same thing - that there is an "outrage industry" in the middle east which seeks out things they know will stir up the Muslim populace.

 

I think that video of Romney denigrating 47% of the US population should be enough to seal his fate no?

 

you would think so, but the power of the october surprise can sneak up on anyone no matter the favor-ability rating. Not that John Kerry is the best example, but the bin laden tape released in October pretty much sealed his fate for the election.

[sergeantk]

This may be of interest: i heard this radio interview on NPR explaining how the fear of Islamic integration leading to them taking over western culture is total bullshit (this was shown with varied studies and statistics). The real conclusion that I drew from that interview was the western world has an incredibly distorted view of Islamic culture and societies.

[awepittance]

why can't we be annoyed by Islamic extremism now? Not to add fuel to an uncomfortable debate, but I'm tired of (some) Muslims having a hair-trigger as well. Of course I'm also tired of knee-jerk reactions from the tea party in the US, and the Chinese and Japanese getting pissed about some rocks out in the water, etc etc...

 

I found this video mostly hilarious. I'd also like to think I could sit down with some Muslim dude and enjoy a kebab together.

 

i think you're completely entitled to have rage or dislike of any type of religious extremist. I don't have any respect or love for people who are motivated by such a narrow world view. However, i think it's misguided and misplaced rage that whenever a major uprising or violent act happens in the middle east against americans to deduce to 'those goddam islamic extremists'. Those regions just happen to be very culturally different than the west, islam is a huge part of the society whether we like it or not.

If they were whirling dervishes, it would be equally misguided that everytime the whirling dervishes protested or fought against us out of retaliation for our foriegn policy and imperialism to say 'goddam those angry whirling dervishes'.Islam may contribute to their determination and ability to martyr themselves, but i don't think their 'islamic extremism' is at the root of why they have so much resentment towards america. Again it's a very easy scapegoat for Americans to look at instead of evaluate the more nuanced reality of why there is so much pent up aggression towards the west in those regions.

[awepittance]

hah, actually nm, there is a drill indeed. but i guess i can still ask you to bump this particular post after nothing actually happens ?

 

at least have the decency to edit your ignorance in the previous post. First you call him stupid for stating a fact, then you say 'hah' in your next post without admitting your idiocy.

[syd syside]

I'm not suggesting that Muslims want to take over Western culture, but that they don't seem interested or active enough with publicly opposing Islamic extremism/Sharia Law which stalls the Israeli/Palestinian resolution and which puts doubts in Westerners and makes integration more difficult.