2014: the year Ellen Page made scores of neckbeards cry out in psychic anguish

[autopilot]

hard candy is good

 

most offensive post in the thread

[hoggy]

 

What is your specific grievance with the French governments' handling of the issue of gay marriage? That they didn't put it to a referendum or what?

 

the true violation imo is not the parliament/congress voting a societal reform without referendum, but the government not holding a referendum once it sees hundreds of thousands of people protesting against the reform. my guess is the government doesn't want a referendum because they know the reform would be rejected. but that's just me speculating.

 

The teaching of gender theory is very interesting, you're right about my ignorance - I didn't know there was a backlash regarding this going on in France - I'd like to know more about what is actually being taught, I'm not against it in principle but there are a wide range of theories about gender

 

what's being taught, iirc, is that sexual identity (boy, girl) and sexual orientation (homo, hetero) being different things, we as a society should have an open mind regarding sexuality. because some boys like boys, some girls like girls, some boys feel like girls, and some girls feel like boys.

which opens the door to the core of gender theory: sexual identities are nothing but social constructions, and if people get rejected because they don't fit into the norm, proof is given that sexual identities are arbitrary, discriminatory, and based on power, therefore, must be overcome. which results in: a boy is not necessarily a boy. no kidding.

at least that's what i understood of it. i might be wrong, or partially wrong on this.

 

 

According to wikipedia, over 50 percent have been in favour for the last 10 years. Disappointing that it's not more over 50 percent than it is, but like I said, I don't think it's a matter for the public to decide.

 

Teaching that gender is more nuanced and moulded than you might be led to believe, and that we should be open minded about different sexualities is absolutely right in my opinion

 

From what I have read, those who are boycotting schools have been misinformed by extremists about what is actually being taught

[brian trageskin]

According to wikipedia, over 50 percent have been in favour for the last 10 years.

 

i've already discussed this point in the thread. polls have no objective value. the orientations they indicate rely on too many factors to make it an objective tool.

 

From what I have read, those who are boycotting schools have been misinformed by extremists about what is actually being taught

 

yep, that's the official story being told by the media. except they're wrong (i checked and i'm positive there's a gender theory program being teached at school, disguised by an educational program on equality).

also, what's an extremist? i know who they're referring to, and i can tell the groups they're referring to are political enemies to the government.

the french establishment has a long tradition of calling its toughest opponents "extremists", "fascists" etc. until recently, this political strategy's always been very efficient to eliminate opposition.

if there is extremism to be found in the story, it's on the government side.

[lumpenprol]

haha . . congratulations, you're more male on the gender spectrum! Not all boys are like you. Like me for example. Then there are girls stuck in boys' bodies.

 

Surely you've noticed "more masculine" women and "more feminine" men. In extreme cases, people feel like they are living a lie unless they physically change their sex. It's light years away from your experience, so I'm not asking you to instantly understand this, or identify with it in any way. But it happens, and I'm glad for any step towards a more generalized acceptance of people like this.

I didn't say I wasn't tolerant of different people. Maybe I misread what I was replying to. I thought the person before me was arguing "gender is all a social construct" and you were saying "yes". In that case I disagree. There are differences between people but I think it is most assuredly not solely (and not even in large part) a social construct. I happen to think it's mostly biological.

 

 

 

 

How does your thinking guns are cool have anything to do with testosterone? Girls like guns. Girls like violent video games.

 

This is all merely a matter of some biological predispositions mixed with environmental factors. Which is the entire reason that gender roles are questionable.

 

Up until the 20th century most everything was built on the idea of cliches and generalizations. Now that we are all connected it obviously becomes quite obvious for everyone that humans are very nuanced in their behavior.

 

Me personally, I played with dolls, guns, played video games, played sports, played house, played dress-up, lit crazy fires, blew stuff up, built forts, got into fights, and sang in choir.

 

The reason I varied my behavior is because I didn't have a direct influence of someone telling me that I shouldn't do the things I enjoy. Had I been exposed to that I would have been suppressing aspects of my personality in order to fit into a predefined system of behavior based on my biological gender. I basically would have been conditioned to behave a certain way and find interest in certain things.

 

You don't have to be a genius to entertain the possible effects of suppression nor how having forces in your life attempting to push you into specific things based on something relatively arbitrary is not productive for us as a species.

 

Obviously, there are some things about gender that are pretty concrete scientifically but I think they are relatively superficial.

 

agreed, up until the last line. I was just watching this...wasn't this posted on watmm? Or maybe I watched it on bdb...anyway enjoy, it's fun:

 

[lumpenprol]

"the children who had higher testosterone have more difficulties with empathy, with recognizing other people's emotions, or taking somebody else's perspective, but they also have a much stronger interest in systems, in understanding how things work. So even if you ignore what sex somebody is, and just look at their hormone levels, you can predict their pattern of interests"

 

**boom goes the dynamite**

[eugene]

whether this is true or false is not the problem here btw. the problem is this theory being put in some schools' curriculum without informing parents about it. and french ministers officially lying about that being put in the curriculum, when all proofs are there for everyone to see. if they had nothing to hide, they wouldn't have to publicly lie.

 

why does it need a special inform ?

 

 

except they're wrong (i checked and i'm positive there's a gender theory program being teached at school, disguised by an educational program on equality).

it's not disguised as anything, it's what it leads to when taught properly.

[eugene]

 

 

those norewgian scientists are complete weaksouce, every undergrad in sociology/anhtropology should be capable of refuting evolutionary trolology. yes it's very possible that biology affects some things but identity/subjectivity are all learned and there are vast differences among different cultures (that are obviously disappearing due to globalization, which you can stay started with the spread of judaism-christianity-islam, hence there's no surprise about similarity of preference of professions in say norway and saudi arabia)

[lumpenprol]

so what do you think about Borat's testosterone research? Is there any scientific evidence that contradicts the elegantly simple "boys like systems, women like people" general trend?

[eugene]

what contradicts it is reality, see female idm fans for example, can you say they like idm less than males ?

but yes, borat's study was the only interesting of the bunch and i'm looking for it atm. but it is very suspect from the very beginning, can one day old even comprehend the visual difference at this stage of brain development ?

i really need to look at the methodology of it.

[Adieu]

so what do you think about Borat's testosterone research? Is there any scientific evidence that contradicts the elegantly simple "boys like systems, women like people" general trend?

 

I would want to see side by side comparisons of data for someone to tell me that 1 chemical hormone has a significantly recordable difference in determining such behavior.

 

Also, with the widespread exposure to estrogen and literally the entire species having excess levels (except for the viligiant and knowledgable) I imagine it would create a significant fluctuation in society based on that idea. I'm just speculating though.

[eugene]

got it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathizing%E2%80%93systemizing_theory#Criticism

 

the important part:

As a basis for his theory, Baron-Cohen cites a study done on newborn infants in which baby boys looked longer at an object and baby girls looked longer at a person.[28] However, a review of studies done with very young children found no consistent differences between boys and girls.[28][29]

 

[lumpenprol]

Edit: hmm

[eugene]

also, what if IDM is actually essentially feminine and we've misunderstood it the whole time ?!

[hoggy]

 

According to wikipedia, over 50 percent have been in favour for the last 10 years.

 

i've already discussed this point in the thread. polls have no objective value. the orientations they indicate rely on too many factors to make it an objective tool.

 

From what I have read, those who are boycotting schools have been misinformed by extremists about what is actually being taught

 

yep, that's the official story being told by the media. except they're wrong (i checked and i'm positive there's a gender theory program being teached at school, disguised by an educational program on equality).

also, what's an extremist? i know who they're referring to, and i can tell the groups they're referring to are political enemies to the government.

the french establishment has a long tradition of calling its toughest opponents "extremists", "fascists" etc. until recently, this political strategy's always been very efficient to eliminate opposition.

if there is extremism to be found in the story, it's on the government side.

 

 

Whether or not the government should have a referendum on gay marriage - my opinion is no, they should not because marriage is generally understood to be the form of commitment grounded in the social fabric, the common public sphere of meaning, marriage should therefore be legally supported for gay people.

 

What gender theory is being taught? What is your source?

[sheatheman]

can you say they like idm less than males ?

 

They are obvs here just to meet guys...

[OneToThirtySix]

also, what if IDM is actually essentially feminine and we've misunderstood it the whole time ?!

My vote is that having a penis is pretty IDM.

[xox]

according to one study only 3% of gay men prefer feminine men. can we from this conclude that culturally induced sexuality and roll playing is of very big importance to sexual identity?

[Guest A/D]

I think we should conclude that studies are generally suspect

[xox]

I think we should conclude that studies are generally suspect

 

i wouldn't say generally suspect but sometimes yes, they are and even worse, total frauds.

regarding the previous one do you think that the real number differs much from the published one? what would you say the real number is, from your experience (in life or readings)?

[sheatheman]

Studies show that 98% of them are wrong.

[xox]

Studies show that 98% of them are wrong.

 

lol

[brian trageskin]

 

whether this is true or false is not the problem here btw. the problem is this theory being put in some schools' curriculum without informing parents about it. and french ministers officially lying about that being put in the curriculum, when all proofs are there for everyone to see. if they had nothing to hide, they wouldn't have to publicly lie.

 

why does it need a special inform ?

 

because some parents might strongly disagree with the sociological concepts approached by gender theory, since those might contradict their views. so the very least the ministry of education could do is being honest about this program, and tell parents that the eductional program on "equality" that's being experimented in a few schools is the application of the political claims of 2 lesbian activists, that were expressed in a political manifesto in '99: http://www.france.qrd.org/texts/manifeste_lesbien1999.html

i'm only asking for transparency, that's all.

[DerWaschbar]

Brian, some photographic evidence of the lobby you are talking about leaked:

 

It's definitely a bit gaudy, but it doesn't seem very threatening.

 

[Guest A/D]

 

 

I think we should conclude that studies are generally suspect

i wouldn't say generally suspect but sometimes yes, they are and even worse, total frauds.

regarding the previous one do you think that the real number differs much from the published one? what would you say the real number is, from your experience (in life or readings)?

I wish I could find this again - one time I read an article that said 86% of studies in 2012 found their intended result, which was more than enough to indicate some kind of bias to me.

 

I honestly don't know enough about my friends' sexual preferences to say! At least one guy I know has a long term "more feminine" boyfriend; another friend won't date dudes who are "too gay". Just observing people in NYC, there are circles who love super feminine dudes, but they are a minority. It could be 3% or it could be 30% - but less than 50%, by my eye.

 

Then again, super feminine dudes are more likely to be harassed, so plenty of people could be playing it down. I don't know.

[brian trageskin]

Brian, some photographic evidence of the lobby you are talking about leaked:

 

It's definitely a bit gaudy, but it doesn't seem very threatening.

 

 

lal