wtf is a person supposed to actually do about israel murdering hundreds of innocent civilians.

[delet...]

you know exactly what i'm talking about mate. And thankfully it's not you that i'm convincing with that post, it's putting that meme into the hearts of others that counts, you will carry on standing up for israel, no matter the scale of the horror committed by it's citizens, or it's frightening frequency. In your mind and in your posts, it's one way, the palestinians are crazed maniacs amongst you and the israelis are justified warriors for truth defending themselves against the zombie hoard. When clearly it's mostly the other way around (i'm under no illusions that you aren't going to get nutbags in the pali camp, also when you suppress economically a population some will turn to crime for opportunity, which of course further sullies the general opinion of these people, whom they encounter a small minority of through the media spotlight behaving less then spectacularly. Others perhaps are mentally unbalanced by having everything taken from them, their family, their land, their health, so they have nothing to lose and attack like battered dogs let off the chain).

[eugene]

look moron, i'm not even defending israel at this point but basic common sense, i've actually got banned from israel's reddit for basically criticizing it all the time and fighting with ring wing idiots. but when i see a murderous, 13-year old piece of shit being heralded as a victim of israeli crimes or whatever it really gets me riled up.

[delet...]

there are people more zealous than you, well i live to be amazed. And these past couple of weeks there have been numerous examples of unjustified israeli violence/murder where nobody had (allegedly) a knife mate, so i agree that it is a shame that messy chose this particular incident to champion his thread's cause.

[eugene]

in the past couple of weeks there were no examples where palestinains were killed without a sensible reason (with one exception of fadi alloun), none of the attacks/knives were fucking "alleged".

 

(i think you can safely skip that part where you link me some bullshit from RT or similar outlets as some proof of anything that you said and me ridiculing you for that.)

[eugene]

i know it's really cliched to say but if both sides were able to treat each other will a little more respect and dignity without being condescending there might actually be a way to curb the violence.

this is impossible, the amount of hate between the two sides is pretty unreal. the only solution imo is some serious and forceful intervention by us and other major powers. basically get the palestinians whatever borders they deserve, settle all the jerusalem bullshit and then build a huge impenetrable wall between the two states to separate them for eternity. if us and allies can sanction russia till its economy suffocates they can surely do that with israel and palestine.

 

 

but I think the terrorism is worse on the side of the IDF and netanyahu, the only difference is they believe they have "authority" to act like they do.

what terrorism is idf and netanyahu committing?

[sweepstakes]

full of idiots like yourself

you're too stupid and incoherent so please ban yourself and never communicate with people again.

look moron,

(i think you can safely skip that part where you link me some bullshit ... and me ridiculing you for that.)

Oh hi eugene! Nice to see some respectful dialog - this is a really great model for relations between people of different beliefs for sure.

[goDel]

@point 1: i'd actually agree with eugene here. the only way to get anywhere in that conflict is by some external intervention. And a two state solution seems to be the one with the most potential in an immediate future. Not sure how the jerusalem bullshit can be settled though. And talking about settlements: no settlement bullshit either. The situation is so toxic that stuff like democracy and faith in peace have become irrelevant.

[goDel]

No excuses? How about the well being of the people involved? Faith and democracy aren't goals in themselves, but rather tools. And when the tools don't appear to be the right ones, other tools should be tried.

This conflict has been going on for way too long and is a source of the instability in the entire region. The hatred eugene referred to has been building for generations and wont be gone in a single heartbeat. The political will and power of the parties directly involved appear to be ineffective and unwilling even to solve the issue.

The palestinians and the israelis can focus on their democracy and their faith within their territories. After a generation or two, when the hatred might be softened, we'll check back.

If there are better solutions, fine. Implement those. But please don't come with faith and hope. You might as well say you'd prefer to pray away all those worldly problems in sunday church. Good luck with that.

[goDel]

Ehm, to get back to the point: i'd support eugenes solution as i see no current viable alternative. You might disagree with the attitude behind it, but that's mostly form over function, imo.

 

If you've got a better alternative, i'm all ears.

[goDel]

By use of mind control?

[goDel]

So diplomacy is not what already is happening? What makes you think that diplomacy isn't already taking place? (and has been for the past decades)

 

Lets agree that what currently is happening is not working and something needs to change. At least that's better than to keep on doing the same, with an endless determination there's always hope for success in the future.

[pcock]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/benjamin-netanyahu-blames-holocaust-on-palestinian-leader-haj-amin-al-husseini-a6702091.html

 

benjamin netenyahu blames the holocaust on palestinian leader.

[MadameChaos]

They already tried the two state solution, but you may notice that Israel continues to build settlements and take over land.

 

 

It's clear they won't be happy until Palestine is wiped from the planet and everyone's memories.

 

[delet...]

oh are you in for a eugening ...

[caze]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/benjamin-netanyahu-blames-holocaust-on-palestinian-leader-haj-amin-al-husseini-a6702091.html

 

benjamin netenyahu blames the holocaust on palestinian leader.

 

this is a better article: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/21/netanyahu-under-fire-for-palestinian-grand-mufti-holocaust-claim

 

even other zionists seem to think netenyahu is a dick at this point.

 

(al-husseini was a nazi colaborating dick himself though, but that shouldn't take away from the stupidity of netenyahu's comments)

[perunamuusi]

Palestinians did holocaust meme

[Friendly Foil]

They already tried the two state solution, but you may notice that Israel continues to build settlements and take over land.

 

 

It's clear they won't be happy until Palestine is wiped from the planet and everyone's memories.

 

Solid sources there. Really adds a new spin to an already exciting debate. Bravo.

 

EDIT: I think it's a really good post.

[Friendly Foil]

[joshuatxuk]

I'm not going to go into some Eugene-esque defense of the IDF but I wills say this - there's a lack of acknowledgement that there's a genuine reason to feel terrorized when random people are going around and stabbing others in a mass effort. There's no way the IDF / Israeli police's response is going to be anything close to "equal" in terms of force, but that doesn't negate their right to do so.

 

They already tried the two state solution, but you may notice that Israel continues to build settlements and take over land.

 

 

It's clear they won't be happy until Palestine is wiped from the planet and everyone's memories.

 

 

The map is accurate but the claim is not. Ironically Israel was just as much the underdog as Palestine is now - Arab countries rejected their statehood as soon as it was declared in 1947.

 

Arab nations, the same ones who were just as complacent with oppressing the Palestinians, Jordan especially, decades. It wasn't until 1967 when Israeli inherited occupation of Palestine after they pushed the invading Arab armies out that it became so lopsided. The current shift has been in place since the invasion of Lebanon, in 1982.

 

Ultra-Zionism is not even close to a majority sentiment in Israel, it's just one of the most vocal and hardest to criticize there and in the U.S. There are just as many Arabs and extreme sympathizers you could claim won't stop until Israel is wiped off the map.

[MadameChaos]

One thing they fail to mention is that much of the violence against Israeli's are often within the illegal settlements.

 

The Palestinian's face constant harassment by armed forces even within the allocated Palestinian areas.

 

It's completely impossible for them to live a normal life, and to even escape. It's totally fucked.

 

[joshuatxuk]

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/benjamin-netanyahu-blames-holocaust-on-palestinian-leader-haj-amin-al-husseini-a6702091.html

 

benjamin netenyahu blames the holocaust on palestinian leader.

 

this is a better article: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/21/netanyahu-under-fire-for-palestinian-grand-mufti-holocaust-claim

 

even other zionists seem to think netenyahu is a dick at this point.

 

(al-husseini was a nazi colaborating dick himself though, but that shouldn't take away from the stupidity of netenyahu's comments)

 

 

Mufi's relationship with Hitler was a mutual deal with Nazi's looking into expansion outside of Europe for support and avenues of influence and likewise Mufi's motives for Arab and Palestinian independence. He absolutely opposed Zionism and was to some extent an anti-Semite, but to claim he was a holocaust architect is an extreme and delusional claim. (Reminds me of the recent sad and desperate claim by GOP candidate Ben Carson that the Holocaust could of been adverted if the Jews in Germany had 2nd amendment rights and an ability to arm themselves.)

 

Mufi's legacy is akin to some other lesser known alliances Nazi Germany formed outside of Western Europe and beyond fascist connection in Spain and Latin American many are aware of. Nazi's sought alliances in the middle east and asia, the other big example being Indian nationalists. Middle Eastern, Balkan, and South Asian citizens served in certain SS units. India in particular sought independence from the UK and that's why some allied with Germany. That's also partly why Hitler has such a weirdly neutral status as a name and icon to some in India and other Asian countries.

[caze]

[eugene]

 

They already tried the two state solution, but you may notice that Israel continues to build settlements and take over land.

 

 

It's clear they won't be happy until Palestine is wiped from the planet and everyone's memories.

 

 

The map is accurate but the claim is not. Ironically Israel was just as much the underdog as Palestine is now - Arab countries rejected their statehood as soon as it was declared in 1947.

 

there's nothing accurate about this map.

the first map simply shows private jewish/zionist organizations land ownership, around 1947 i think. arab palesitnians didn't OWN the rest of the green territory, at most they owned about 40 percent, and even big parts of those were owned by the so called arab absentee landlords who didn't really live in palestine and had nothing much do to with the palestinian nationalism.

 

the second map shows the proposed partition plan of political borders, it doesn't show any land ownership though there is some correlation when it comes to the israeli part.

 

the third maps shows correctly the areas controlled by israel after the 47-49 war but the green parts are not palestine, west bank was an extension of jordan and gaza was egypt's in that period, there was no national palestinian body controlling those areas whatsoever. and in any case it doesn't show any land ownership as well.

 

the forth map shows correctly, more or less, the actual palestinian jurisdiction, gaza is hamas's atm (since 2007) and parts of west bank (where 96% of the palestinians reside) are under fatah control. this is the situation from 94 more or less, it was the first time in history where palestinian, as a national unit, were given actual control of the land.

 

the idea of two state solution is to give the state of palestine borders resembling the 3rd slide plus east jerusalem and some corridor between gaza and west bank. those maps don't even mention palesitnians living within israeli borders btw, so in reality there's quite a lot of "green land" within israel itself, in the north especially.

[joshuatxuk]

So diplomacy is not what already is happening? What makes you think that diplomacy isn't already taking place? (and has been for the past decades)

 

Lets agree that what currently is happening is not working and something needs to change. At least that's better than to keep on doing the same, with an endless determination there's always hope for success in the future.

 

I would say, and this is insanely simplistic, but the problem is external forces, which should be aiming to solve this issue if anything, are complacent to worsening it. The U.S. has gone from being a default diplomatic ally of Israel (which I agree with it) to it's de facto military supplier and donator. Literally billions of dollars, and critical technical aid to a country that is neither a NATO member nor an ally to a ongoing war. This was totally understandable pre-1980s when Israel was literally surrounded by Soviet-aligned Arab states, but now we literally arm all of it's neighbors except Syria (Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, even a little to Palestinian security forces) with the same equipment. Israel has been remarkable adaptable in the past - even dealing with the end of France and UK's equipment supplies with their own ingenuity by updating old jets and tanks and using captured tanks as armored vehicles.

 

Palestine's forces are underfunded and under-supported, and frustrated by the fact that Hamas and Hezbollah are given more proxy support as military arms. People neglect the fact that many Arab countries support Palestine but enjoy their support from the U.S. just as much, making them seemingly stuck giving lip service to Palestine more than actually supporting it.

 

Anyway...what's troubling is any idea of negotiating with Palestine or backing down our extreme support of Israel is a non-starter politically here. Liberals can't mention it without backlash, GOP leaders can't even discuss foreign policy without bringing it up as if it is a major domestic issue.

 

Then there's the religious lobby. That's not the core of the conflict but imo the biggest wrench in any effort to solve it. It's behind the settlements, it's behind the clusterfuck of sovereignty claims to Jerusalem, it's behind the vitriol and ire propagated to Palestinians.

[joshuatxuk]

 

 

They already tried the two state solution, but you may notice that Israel continues to build settlements and take over land.

 

 

It's clear they won't be happy until Palestine is wiped from the planet and everyone's memories.

 

 

The map is accurate but the claim is not. Ironically Israel was just as much the underdog as Palestine is now - Arab countries rejected their statehood as soon as it was declared in 1947.

 

there's nothing accurate about this map.

the first map simply shows private jewish/zionist organizations land ownership, around 1947 i think. arab palesitnians didn't OWN the rest of the green territory, at most they owned about 40 percent, and even big parts of those were owned by the so called arab absentee landlords who didn't really live in palestine and had nothing much do to with the palestinian nationalism.

 

the second map shows the proposed partition plan of political borders, it doesn't show any land ownership though there is some correlation when it comes to the israeli part.

 

the third maps shows correctly the areas controlled by israel after the 47-49 war but the green parts are not palestine, west bank was an extension of jordan and gaza was egypt's in that period, there was no national palestinian body controlling those areas whatsoever. and in any case it doesn't show any land ownership as well.

 

the forth map shows correctly, more or less, the actual palestinian jurisdiction, gaza is hamas's atm (since 2007) and parts of west bank (where 96% of the palestinians reside) are under fatah control. this is the situation from 94 more or less, it was the first time in history where palestinian, as a national unit, were given actual control of the land.

 

the idea of two state solution is to give the state of palestine borders resembling the 3rd slide plus east jerusalem and some corridor between gaza and west bank. those maps don't even mention palesitnians living within israeli borders btw, so in reality there's quite a lot of "green land" within israel itself, in the north especially.

 

 

appreciate the clarification - i was trying to point out that the map that the map is misleading even and the respond to the offhand comment that Isreal is trying to wipe Palestine off the map as madamechaos said, which is hyperbole - i highly doubt she means the hypothetical one-state solution where palestinians are granted Israeli citizenship