The rise of the 'Alt-Right' culture - thoughts?

[drillkicker]

I never understood how someone could make someone being gay, trans, fat, religious, or whatever their business. I think there are a lot of snide children out in the world that never grew up and in the age where everyone has a soap-box, we are seeing all the shades of various peoples psyches on a super public international platform. God help us all...

It's sort of caused by the two sides feeding each other's extremism. The LGBT movement bullshit tries to make "queers," as they call it, demand recognition from everyone else (through gay pride parades and similar scams), and the conservatives respond to that by not ignoring it and instead only giving them the "oppression" that they claim to be fighting in the first place. Obviously both sides are the enemy of actual sexual "minorities," but the LGBT-thumpers too fucking stupid and blind to realize that and the conservatives don't see that they're just making everything go to shit by fueling them.

 

It's a similar deal with the artificial "atheists vs. theists" dichotomy.

[awepittance]

ok so we've established that most people here think Joe Rogan is 'mostly left wing' but why do you think he's been so eager lately to have on so many of these horrific fixtures of the 'alt-right' community? Are his friends in the comedy scene just really into this type of shit and are exposing it to him? I feel like the Duncan Trussel vibes that used to be on the JRE podcast a lot more in the past are now completely gone and instead Joe seems to be approaching a version of 'conservative after 40' approach, but maybe thats just because of how goddam left wing I am. Listening to Duncan Trussel's latest rant about how living in America is like 'living inside the body of a very healthy serial killer' reminded me of why I was charmed by Joe Rogan's podcast in the first place, but I haven't felt that in a really long time tbh.

i keep bringing up the comedy scene because there seems to be a lot strange crossover between both scenes. In the past you had someone like Patrice O'neal railing against feminism (but not really specifically feminism) but I felt like his pov was coming from somewhere very authentic and instead of kneejerking against liberalism he would give a very honest brutal opinion about something liberal without echoing the same bullshit you heard from everyone else. I miss this type of approach, but I guess part of what we're seeing is a homogenization of everything including ideas, so now if you have a critique of feminism there is a danger/risk of basically associating yourself with some really dumb fucking reactionary people like Milos, but similarly if you say 'i am a feminist' it carries baggage of people seeing you as an overly sensitive moron who needs to be constantly kid gloved. We continue to barrel into what seems like a very confusing era where a lot of well meaning people are adopting poisonous ideology that's actually making us all hate eachother

[drillkicker]

I had a very liberal education that was heavy on feminism, racial equality, past horrors committed by the cis white patriarchy, etc. I wound up internalizing a lot of it and bought into the idea that perhaps my lineage really was the enemy. That feels pretty crummy. As I've gotten older, I have found that ultimately people are murderous motherfuckers. That's how we got here, that's how we advance and it's in our bones. Imperialistic war exercises notwithstanding, this has been an unprecedented stretch of peace and prosperity when you consider the brutality of the past. The social justice machinations of formerly oppressed segments are the new arrows/bombs/guns/religion used by the Caucasoid patriarchy of yore. I'd argue that they're equally effective as well. More incredible is how global this phenomenon is.

 

The new alt-right is really just the last corner of the ring that white males are occupying in this bloodless Game of Thrones for dominance. Personally, I wish it wasn't that way but I've disabused myself of the dream that maybe everything really isn't about power and subjugation. If it's divide and conquer the corporatocracy has decided, I'll wait for a Ghandi, MLK or Lennon to help us come together but nobody like that is anywhere to be found. I have to say ol Berndog Sanders is getting close but we all know how that will end already.

You misspelt Lenin.

 

Also, humanity isn't inherently violent. The majority of people are peaceful, but violent ones have just accomplished much more in general because destruction is much easier than creation or preservation of things.

[awepittance]

MLK or Lennon to help us come together but nobody like that is anywhere to be found. I have to say ol Berndog Sanders is getting close but we all know how that will end already.

missing piece from Berndog VS MLK or Lennon was that MLK and Lennon understood that criticizing America's domestic policies only was only one piece of the problem, you have to go after what we're doing militarily across the world (and strongly do so) to really strike at the heart of how fucked up this country actually is. There was literally a 6 month period where you could not find one foreign policy position on Sanders campaign website, that's very alarming to me especially for someone gaining so much populist support. Its a disturbing disconnect, that as long as people here aren't being blown up by drones on a daily basis things are cool.

[awepittance]

here is what I would describe as a form of charming proto-alt-right discussion on gay marriage. Something about Patrice Oneal is highly appealing to me personally, even though i don't agree with a lot of what he says (including parts of this rant)

if you're an old fart like me you remember that the Daily Show always was followed by Colin Quinn's tough crowd. It was like a double feature of comedic perspectives from the left and right, but since that era things have become so much more manufactured seeming

[caze]

It's also funny when Gavin gets completely shot down, like he'll bring up statistics and then Joe's intern will fact check him and Gavin ends up being completely wrong.

 

Actually, the intern didn't prove him wrong at all, he literally clicked on the first link he found in google, a link who's figures were bullshit. McInnes was right on that one (he was talking about NY specifically IIRC, the national US average might be lower, but not as low as Rogan thought).

[awepittance]

if i lived in New York I would befriend Gavin Mcinnes, feed him 7 beers, turn on my tape recorder and proceed to try to get him to violate his Vice NDA settlement in various ways (other than talking about sharing the same condom with shane smiths chode). Part of me finds it very hard to believe he has seen nothing of Vice since he left (2008), for a right winger like himself he would probably find it incredibly upsetting that Shane Smith nearly jizzes his pants over Biden and Obama visiting Vice HQ (yes its true, im still on a long term mission to expose at least part of the Vice operation of being direct piped in US government propaganda<-- not sarcasm at all)


the only time Joe had him on the ropes at all is when he started talking about Vice, seemed to make him extremely uncomfortable. Really curious about what really happened and why he decided to leave

[caze]

Joe Rogan can be a bit of a simpleton at times, it's embarrassing to hear him talk about physics and cosmology and shit, he's had the likes of Rupert Sheldrake on the show (and is a big fan of Terrence McKenna of course as well). Not that McInnes was any better in that exchange, his defence of theism was pretty laughable.

[delet...]

yeah i don't think rogan is left wing, he's like a lot of us, he's a wingless, non-angelic being, just trying to get on with seeking truth and rational, logic based solutions in some post political world. And yeah, it's pretty obvious he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. But his heart is in the right place, he's not a distasteful human being. I certainly wouldn't look to him for some kind of plan for reality and only see him when broadcasts are brought up on watmm, broadcasts that seem to cover a lot of topics and let his guests go pretty indepth, he does what he does to a reasonable degree i think.

[awepittance]

 

 

I had a very liberal education that was heavy on feminism, racial equality, past horrors committed by the cis white patriarchy, etc. I wound up internalizing a lot of it and bought into the idea that perhaps my lineage really was the enemy. That feels pretty crummy. As I've gotten older, I have found that ultimately people are murderous motherfuckers. That's how we got here, that's how we advance and it's in our bones. Imperialistic war exercises notwithstanding, this has been an unprecedented stretch of peace and prosperity when you consider the brutality of the past. The social justice machinations of formerly oppressed segments are the new arrows/bombs/guns/religion used by the Caucasoid patriarchy of yore. I'd argue that they're equally effective as well. More incredible is how global this phenomenon is.

 

The new alt-right is really just the last corner of the ring that white males are occupying in this bloodless Game of Thrones for dominance. Personally, I wish it wasn't that way but I've disabused myself of the dream that maybe everything really isn't about power and subjugation. If it's divide and conquer the corporatocracy has decided, I'll wait for a Ghandi, MLK or Lennon to help us come together but nobody like that is anywhere to be found. I have to say ol Berndog Sanders is getting close but we all know how that will end already.

You misspelt Lenin.

 

Also, humanity isn't inherently violent. The majority of people are peaceful, but violent ones have just accomplished much more in general because destruction is much easier than creation or preservation of things.

 

Violence isn't always about shedding blood. Violence is anything that isolates or otherwise mutes your opposition. Traditionally, that was the sword or the bomb but today, careers and livelihoods can be vaporized in an instant with words. I'd agree with you that the majority of people aren't gutting their enemies but don't discount the more subtle things we do on a day to day basis to advance our own agenda.

 

 

good points. It always strikes me as very odd that we live in the most powerful military empire on the planet and we constantly are able to see into other societies things like political assassinations, closure of media outlets due to state control and kangaroo courts but rarely are we ever able to look inward and see our country for what is actually is. Its these horrific balls to the wall forms of corruption that weakens ( i think) are ability to see reality for what it actually is, instead of 'oh we're not as bad as these mother fuckers, do we're doing pretty ok"

 

like suggesting that MLK was assassinated by the state is still seen by most americans as a bat-shit conspiracy theory whereas every single time a political dissident or even russian official dies of mysterious causes, the entire western media on a megaphone insinuates that he president of Russia ordered the murder. Im now sort of going off in a tangent, but I find that disconnect extremely fascinating. Like isn't it more likely that powerful nations with imperialist aims will always stifle dissent in any way they can get away with including in more extreme cases: assassination? You've pointed out all the other ways someone can be ruined, and no doubt if the Russian or US government can find a way to ruin someone who is a threat without killing them, they will. Logic would tell you that to be true, but american exceptionalism prevents that logic from playing out in our minds

[delet...]

ahh mesh and all his world experience, you were ranting against something i said the other day with that one. hahahah, tis a funny thing to see. nwae carry on, oh wizened one. Did you know that the democrats used to hold the a good block of the mainly rural religious vote in the US before reagan courted them and brought them to his side. Intresting that innit. And i lived in a small town 1200 kilometres from brisbane that once had had the only communist member of parliament. Rural electorates generally have more farmers which have more money which vote for parties that say they're going to get taxed less, or if they're not doing so well, subsidize them. People vote in their interest. There's more organised labour in the cities, so people vote left.

[Danny O Flannagin]

 

 

 

I had a very liberal education that was heavy on feminism, racial equality, past horrors committed by the cis white patriarchy, etc. I wound up internalizing a lot of it and bought into the idea that perhaps my lineage really was the enemy. That feels pretty crummy. As I've gotten older, I have found that ultimately people are murderous motherfuckers. That's how we got here, that's how we advance and it's in our bones. Imperialistic war exercises notwithstanding, this has been an unprecedented stretch of peace and prosperity when you consider the brutality of the past. The social justice machinations of formerly oppressed segments are the new arrows/bombs/guns/religion used by the Caucasoid patriarchy of yore. I'd argue that they're equally effective as well. More incredible is how global this phenomenon is.

 

The new alt-right is really just the last corner of the ring that white males are occupying in this bloodless Game of Thrones for dominance. Personally, I wish it wasn't that way but I've disabused myself of the dream that maybe everything really isn't about power and subjugation. If it's divide and conquer the corporatocracy has decided, I'll wait for a Ghandi, MLK or Lennon to help us come together but nobody like that is anywhere to be found. I have to say ol Berndog Sanders is getting close but we all know how that will end already.

You misspelt Lenin.

 

Also, humanity isn't inherently violent. The majority of people are peaceful, but violent ones have just accomplished much more in general because destruction is much easier than creation or preservation of things.

 

Violence isn't always about shedding blood. Violence is anything that isolates or otherwise mutes your opposition. Traditionally, that was the sword or the bomb but today, careers and livelihoods can be vaporized in an instant with words. I'd agree with you that the majority of people aren't gutting their enemies but don't discount the more subtle things we do on a day to day basis to advance our own agenda.

 

 

good points. It always strikes me as very odd that we live in the most powerful military empire on the planet and we constantly are able to see into other societies things like political assassinations, closure of media outlets due to state control and kangaroo courts but rarely are we ever able to look inward and see our country for what is actually is. Its these horrific balls to the wall forms of corruption that weakens ( i think) are ability to see reality for what it actually is, instead of 'oh we're not as bad as these mother fuckers, do we're doing pretty ok"

 

like suggesting that MLK was assassinated by the state is still seen by most americans as a bat-shit conspiracy theory whereas every single time a political dissident or even russian official dies of mysterious causes, the entire western media on a megaphone insinuates that he president of Russia ordered the murder. Im now sort of going off in a tangent, but I find that disconnect extremely fascinating. Like isn't it more likely that powerful nations with imperialist aims will always stifle dissent in any way they can get away with including in more extreme cases: assassination? You've pointed out all the other ways someone can be ruined, and no doubt if the Russian or US government can find a way to ruin someone who is a threat without killing them, they will. Logic would tell you that to be true, but american exceptionalism prevents that logic from playing out in our minds

 

In my most cynical, I'd say existing is violence. Like, living in the United States, even if your against all the crazy violent shit we do, you're still paying taxes and supporting violence. People think that since theres less direct violence in our day to day lives, that we've somehow overcome violence but I feel it has grown to a much larger scale, we're just not on the receiving end

[zlemflolia]

You're conflating this alt-right concept with anti-feminism which is not really an apt comparison in any way. Anti-feminism tends to be about debunking the demonstrably bullshit claims of feminists, the literally statistically demonstrably false ones not ones that have any place in the realm of personal opinion. This is not to say that all feminist talking points are bullshit, but some of them are, with rape culture and the wage gap being blatant examples. Then of course Mercedes Carrera is a vlogger essentially, parroting some of the many academics completely revisiting these supposedly solved questions to which feminism claims to have the answers, including Gad Saad who has some excellent content on this topic.

 

There's no harm in making categorizations but too coarsely grained ones will result in them being inaccurate.

[awepittance]

interesting, so would you say there is an 'anti-feminist' cultural movement (that exists outside of academia) totally separate from carrying the baggage of what is basically a hip millennial version of Fox News? I have not personally seen it . Definitely would be interested in taking a look at some of that just for more accurate context.

[ascdi]

I'll ask this though, how many of you would say you are a feminist? I feel like most men within my age bracket (18-30) wouldn't say they are feminists.

 

Has no one else piped up yet? I’m a feminist (or at least I do my best; there’s still a lot of stupid debris in my brain from the culture I grew up in).

 

I agree with JE that there is an uptick lately in a phenomenon of some kind wherein being a reactionary righty is somehow more acceptable and even cool for young people.

[awepittance]

 

I agree with JE that there is an uptick lately in a phenomenon of some kind wherein being a reactionary righty is somehow more acceptable and even cool for young people.

 

would you agree with what others have said in here that its a very vocal minority?

 

part of me agrees with that, but at the same time how much does it really matter how small the group is if regular people like you and I are noticing a significant uptick in it?

 

We've already had very heated Sam Harris / islamaphobia threads in here, but I do think this uptick parallels in some fashion the uptick in kneejerking against the concept of islamaphobia (or as i like to call it: trying to stop the dehumanization of an entire population that the west is mostly virtually ignorant on).

 

Now maybe i have a very warped perspective on all of this since i listen to all these goddam comedy podcasts

[ascdi]

 

 

I agree with JE that there is an uptick lately in a phenomenon of some kind wherein being a reactionary righty is somehow more acceptable and even cool for young people.

 

would you agree with what others have said in here that its a very vocal minority?

 

part of me agrees with that, but at the same time how much does it really matter how small the group is if regular people like you and I are noticing a significant uptick in it?

 

We've already had very heated Sam Harris / islamaphobia threads in here, but I do think this uptick parallels in some fashion the uptick in kneejerking against the concept of islamaphobia (or as i like to put it dehumanizing an entire population that the west is mostly virtually ignorant on).

 

 

Hmm, I dunno. I mean, I think you nailed it initially. It’s a qualitative difference. There always were tons of conservative people obviously, and plenty of them were young. But that used to be a square and even in some ways invisible demographic. The waves being made in society (at least in the US) by young people were mostly being made by liberal young people. That still is the majority, I feel, but there now is another demographic—formalized perhaps in the way that they are a “market” for products, media, energy drinks, etc.—of “cool”, “hip”, “straight-talking” youngish conservatives who just talk the most inane shit ever.

 

Honestly I think the main thing is that pop culture wise these people used to be invisible, but now they are a “market” unto their own. And the marketing, sloganeering, and lifestyle bullshit rushing into that vacuum is what is manufacturing the “cool”. There’s money there, basically.

[zlemflolia]

interesting, so would you say there is an 'anti-feminist' cultural movement (that exists outside of academia) totally separate from carrying the baggage of what is basically a hip millennial version of Fox News? I have not personally seen it . Definitely would be interested in taking a look at some of that just for more accurate context.

 

There is a pretty large online community that is only partially overlapped with the much hated MRA movement which attempts to look at the claims of feminists from an objective standpoint and dissect them.

 

Some claims are easily taken apart, for instance the wage gap. There is no evidence what the wage gap is a result of institutionalized sexism, and in reality it is simply a result of differences in personal choices made by both sexes, which are admittedly partially based on social conditioning but also based on inherent psychological gender dimorphism. Sound obvious? Tell it to the most vocal feminists and even Obama.

 

Some claims are true but only vacuously so, for instance that women don't have a say within the going-ons of society because women do not hold as many political offices as men. This is true in that they literally do not have "as much representation" as in warm bodies in the rooms of Parliament and Congress, but the men that are there tend to advocate for female priorities more then male priorities regardless. VAWA, primary aggressor laws, preponderance of the evidence in university sexual harassment cases, continued lack of draft enrollment despite the newly gained right to fight in combat positions, the list is endless.

 

Correctly contextualized and explained statistics do not lie. Otherwise they tend to

 

Suicide rate, homelessness rate, high school and university graduation rate, debtor's prison rate, gender specific health funding rate, workplace injury and death rate - all of these play wild favoritism towards women. Yet this is never acknowledged or considered significant, and men who bring it up are told to man up and "check their privilege", yeah I don't see any privilege. If the genders were reversed on any of these issues they would be the new number one feminist talking points

 

Anyway specific great examples of people making videos on these topics on YouTube are GirlWritesWhat, Gad Saad, and yeah I don't know who else off the top of my head.

 

tl;dr

Anti-feminism has absolutely nothing to do with conservatism and lots to do with reality.

[awepittance]

i will take a look. It sounds like what you're describing is sort of a point by point debunking of popular feminist talking points, is that accurate? I guess when you initially described it I was thinking it might be some sort of over arching ideology, maybe it is and maybe im not 100% understanding. Like is there a lot of crossover with this debunking of feminism with the 'misandry' proclaimers?

now I promised myself I wouldn't turn this into a Sam Harris thread, but the last thing you say above sounds eerily similar to thje manipulative talking point of Sam Harris devotees

"anti-islam has absolutely nothing to do with hating or being racist against muslims, it has to do with showing liberals how supporting it makes them not liberal'

which i would argue politely is a total crock of shit

I actually have less of a problem with people who openly admit bigotry as a reason for fueling certain beliefs they have, so you're saying that there are a plenty of valid feminist critical people out there who are in no way fueled by a conservative ideology or misogyny? I just needed to clarify that as the final sentence on your post

[ascdi]

Haha, wow

[zlemflolia]

i will take a look. It sounds like what you're describing is sort of a point by point debunking of popular feminist talking points, is that accurate? I guess when you initially described it I was thinking it might be some sort of over arching ideology, maybe it is and maybe im not 100% understanding

 

Yes anti-feminism tends to be a point by point debunking of feminists talking points and the bringing up of facts that many claims feminists make (society justifies rape against women, nobody cares about violence against women enough) are actually not true and are actually significantly more true of men than women.

 

The issue is a lot of conservative idiots are anti-feminist for the wrong reasons i.e. they actually are misogynists, so this "old white bald conservative fucktard" negative bias gets applied to anyone criticizing feminism and it's not accurate.

 

I only even bring this up because you linked the Mercedes Carrera video as being a part of this alt-right movement when in reality I don't even remotely see how it's related - she (and the host guy) is debunking feminist talking points and providing more realistic explanations to "rape culture" and related topics

[awepittance]

sorry i just edited my post above because i think i saw you edited yours with a final point that made me sorta question the underpinnings of everything you said, take a look (so you can edit yours accordingly, lol)

[delet...]

interesting, so would you say there is an 'anti-feminist' cultural movement (that exists outside of academia) totally separate from carrying the baggage of what is basically a hip millennial version of Fox News? I have not personally seen it . Definitely would be interested in taking a look at some of that just for more accurate context.

 

there is most definitely an anti 3rd wave feminism current which is disconnected from the right wing caricature you seem to be fond of in this thread. Just because something is repeated by these people it does not mean they own that discussion. They are using things like this to bring people to their tent for the precise reason that these notions are aligned with popular sentiment, which means that yes it is seperate from the baggage in the mind of an old watmm cultural worrier.

[awepittance]

 

interesting, so would you say there is an 'anti-feminist' cultural movement (that exists outside of academia) totally separate from carrying the baggage of what is basically a hip millennial version of Fox News? I have not personally seen it . Definitely would be interested in taking a look at some of that just for more accurate context.

 

there is most definitely an anti 3rd wave feminism current which is disconnected from the right wing caricature you seem to be fond of in this thread. Just because something is repeated by these people it does not mean they own that discussion. They are using things like this to bring people to their tent for the precise reason that these notions are aligned with popular sentiment, which means that yes it is seperate from the baggage in the mind of an watmm cultural worrier.

 

i don't doubt this, but 3rd-wave feminism is a pretty different animal from just talking about things like wage-gap and maternity leave isn't it? Most of these people seem to be going after very classic 'feminist' paradigms, and also keep in mind I don't really know the difference between different 'waves' of feminism. so anyone here who feels the need to educate me please do

[dudenorth]

there are realities to all of these movements (lgbt, feminism, gay rights, etc.) that present themselves when one comes in direct contact with them. The media represents a removed,inflated duality that really fucks up discussions on public policy...