zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I actually think Zeff makes some valid points as it pertains to Western society and gender. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delet... Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Zeff is the guy that honestly believed women stole men's cumrags from the trash in order to get pregnant and legally enslave the man right? That wasn't a dream was it? http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7024930/ns/health-sexual_health/t/sperm-gift-keeps-giving/#.VkBYwLerSUl wow what a cunt that woman and the whole court system are to that guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goDel Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Such an excellent discussion, I know I can always count on you WATMM to make no substantial rebuttals of any arguments and instead say "Hurr sperm in gerbij can LOLLOL mansplaining haha", absolutely excellent. I'm simply pointing out that women are not oppressed and you've somehow turned this into some situation where I'm claiming men are oppressed which I haven't It would be great if you could avoid blatantly misrepresenting the statements of others This is factually false, btw. You literally made this quote up all by yourself: "Hurr sperm in gerbij can LOLLOL mansplaining haha". You don't seem truely consistent in keeping yourself to the same principles you preach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Zeff is the guy that honestly believed women stole men's cumrags from the trash in order to get pregnant and legally enslave the man right? That wasn't a dream was it? http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7024930/ns/health-sexual_health/t/sperm-gift-keeps-giving/#.VkBYwLerSUl wow what a cunt that woman and the whole court system are to that guy. Yeah it's absolutely ridiculous and the fact that it can even happen exposes how ridiculously the whole family court system is set up. This should not be possible. Biologically obviously it can't be stopped but legally men should be able to abdicate parental responsibility the same way women can via abortion imo, within a reasonable period of time after learning of the pregnancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goDel Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Zeff is the guy that honestly believed women stole men's cumrags from the trash in order to get pregnant and legally enslave the man right? That wasn't a dream was it? http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7024930/ns/health-sexual_health/t/sperm-gift-keeps-giving/#.VkBYwLerSUl wow what a cunt that woman and the whole court system are to that guy. I can highly recommend reading Esther Vilar's The manipulated man, btw. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Manipulated_Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delet... Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 also i think most of the responses to zeff should have conclusively proved by now to JE that most of watmm is in fact mentally ensnared as liberal leaning nutbags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KovalainenFanBoy Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Zeff is the guy that honestly believed women stole men's cumrags from the trash in order to get pregnant and legally enslave the man right? That wasn't a dream was it? http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7024930/ns/health-sexual_health/t/sperm-gift-keeps-giving/#.VkBYwLerSUl wow what a cunt that woman and the whole court system are to that guy. I can highly recommend reading Esther Vilar's The manipulated man, btw. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Manipulated_Man According to research from the Spanish Book Institute, the Spanish translated version (under the title El Varón Domado) was the third-most popular book sold in Spain in 1975. heh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delet... Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Zeff is the guy that honestly believed women stole men's cumrags from the trash in order to get pregnant and legally enslave the man right? That wasn't a dream was it? http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7024930/ns/health-sexual_health/t/sperm-gift-keeps-giving/#.VkBYwLerSUl wow what a cunt that woman and the whole court system are to that guy. Yeah it's absolutely ridiculous and the fact that it can even happen exposes how ridiculously the whole family court system is set up. This should not be possible. Biologically obviously it can't be stopped but legally men should be able to abdicate parental responsibility the same way women can via abortion imo, within a reasonable period of time after learning of the pregnancy. that's an interesting point, so if the woman refuses abortion, the man isn't then on the hook for 20 years paying for a child he didn't want. Conversely, if he does pay (which should be equivalent to half of what the female pays or a 'base childcare allowance', not based on his income, if he desires to give more, he can) he should be given more equal access i think, or if he earns more, perhaps he can be assigned to bring up the child. Afterall, it's all about 'equality' isn't it. /of course the mother provides milk, which delivers immunity, and various other factors which then rule in her favour, but that natural bias has been used in quite the vindictive and unjust ways, ideally the children should be brought up with both parents there and if that isn't going to happen it should only be in rare cases that people should be allowed to breed. (yeah, i'm weirder than the lot of you). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goDel Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adieu Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 ok so we've established that most people here think Joe Rogan is 'mostly left wing' but why do you think he's been so eager lately to have on so many of these horrific fixtures of the 'alt-right' community? Are his friends in the comedy scene just really into this type of shit and are exposing it to him? I feel like the Duncan Trussel vibes that used to be on the JRE podcast a lot more in the past are now completely gone and instead Joe seems to be approaching a version of 'conservative after 40' approach, but maybe thats just because of how goddam left wing I am. Listening to Duncan Trussel's latest rant about how living in America is like 'living inside the body of a very healthy serial killer' reminded me of why I was charmed by Joe Rogan's podcast in the first place, but I haven't felt that in a really long time tbh. i keep bringing up the comedy scene because there seems to be a lot strange crossover between both scenes. In the past you had someone like Patrice O'neal railing against feminism (but not really specifically feminism) but I felt like his pov was coming from somewhere very authentic and instead of kneejerking against liberalism he would give a very honest brutal opinion about something liberal without echoing the same bullshit you heard from everyone else. I miss this type of approach, but I guess part of what we're seeing is a homogenization of everything including ideas, so now if you have a critique of feminism there is a danger/risk of basically associating yourself with some really dumb fucking reactionary people like Milos, but similarly if you say 'i am a feminist' it carries baggage of people seeing you as an overly sensitive moron who needs to be constantly kid gloved. We continue to barrel into what seems like a very confusing era where a lot of well meaning people are adopting poisonous ideology that's actually making us all hate eachother This is pretty much why I don't align myself with these labels. I don't want to carry the weight of the radicals. Such as with the gender discussion currently going on. I see zeff making valid points, and I know there exists valid examples of women being oppressed as well. Oppression in western society is complex and it effects everyone in different ways and to different extents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 ok so we've established that most people here think Joe Rogan is 'mostly left wing' but why do you think he's been so eager lately to have on so many of these horrific fixtures of the 'alt-right' community? Are his friends in the comedy scene just really into this type of shit and are exposing it to him? I feel like the Duncan Trussel vibes that used to be on the JRE podcast a lot more in the past are now completely gone and instead Joe seems to be approaching a version of 'conservative after 40' approach, but maybe thats just because of how goddam left wing I am. Listening to Duncan Trussel's latest rant about how living in America is like 'living inside the body of a very healthy serial killer' reminded me of why I was charmed by Joe Rogan's podcast in the first place, but I haven't felt that in a really long time tbh. i keep bringing up the comedy scene because there seems to be a lot strange crossover between both scenes. In the past you had someone like Patrice O'neal railing against feminism (but not really specifically feminism) but I felt like his pov was coming from somewhere very authentic and instead of kneejerking against liberalism he would give a very honest brutal opinion about something liberal without echoing the same bullshit you heard from everyone else. I miss this type of approach, but I guess part of what we're seeing is a homogenization of everything including ideas, so now if you have a critique of feminism there is a danger/risk of basically associating yourself with some really dumb fucking reactionary people like Milos, but similarly if you say 'i am a feminist' it carries baggage of people seeing you as an overly sensitive moron who needs to be constantly kid gloved. We continue to barrel into what seems like a very confusing era where a lot of well meaning people are adopting poisonous ideology that's actually making us all hate eachother This is pretty much why I don't align myself with these labels. I don't want to carry the weight of the radicals. Such as with the gender discussion currently going on. I see zeff making valid points, and I know there exists valid examples of women being oppressed as well. Oppression in western society is complex and it effects everyone in different ways and to different extents. Yes oppression exists in isolated bubbles of society, but my claim is that it's clearly not as a whole. There are women in the west who are forced into being pimped out as prostitutes, essentially sex slaves. There are women who live under the rule of abusive husbands, and in cases where the abuse is asymmetric this is oppression of a sort. But overall, on average, women are not oppressed as a whole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Another more important point - the forms of oppression of women that do exist within western society are by and large perpetrated by extreme subsets of the general population. It's not institutionalized, it's not the majority of the population actively taking part in this oppression of women, it's sex traffickers and other criminals, people who exist isolated from society as a whole and who are criminal outcasts. People who are held to harsh legal accountability for their crimes by the courts of the very society that feminists claim is oppressing women Absurd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goDel Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Is that a fact? Using an average or a median? Also, on the original discussion. Been watching youtubes like this lately. I think the point is there's more and more of people like these. Making tiny niches on the internet about formerly political issues, but so far removed from actual politics, it seems mostly inward focussed and not interested in modern politics at all. So the whole left-right thing becomes irrelevant. If you watch it from start to finish, you'll be treated with the rape joke of the week, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friendly Foil Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 If women would stop oppressing me already, I'd be so happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awesomeperson Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The left in the US keeps burying themselves deeper and deeper with shit like arghmed the clock boy, liberals are the most gullible group on the planet, not everyone of them is a critical thinker and many share a religious blind faith mentally over their political ideologies which leads to a counter response hence the alt right At least in the US things haven't gotten so bad as in Sweden, that's the end result of what to expect from the far-left. You forgot to mention ramzpaul which has a big following as well and is more rational than some of the people you mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caze Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Also, on the original discussion. Been watching youtubes like this lately. I think the point is there's more and more of people like these. Making tiny niches on the internet about formerly political issues, but so far removed from actual politics, it seems mostly inward focussed and not interested in modern politics at all. So the whole left-right thing becomes irrelevant. If you watch it from start to finish, you'll be treated with the rape joke of the week, btw. That's a pretty good video actually, up until the 'joke' at the end at least (I don't have a problem with rape jokes in principal, they need to be funny though). Sokal's book is great, and very relevant to this thread. The menstruation/fluid dynamics bits were hilarious. Feminism is full of hilariously irrational nonsense, Bell Hooks is a great example, she combines religion and marxism, lol. I always assumed I was a feminist when I was growing up, thinking it was an ideology devoted to equality and egalitarianism. The last five years or so have been eye opening though, as the true content of their nutty beliefs have been aired to the world the backlash has been inevitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QQQ Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The dumb thing with people like goDel and MGF is that they are doing really, really well at proving Zeff is right in that feminists are really shit at backing themselves up with facts and figures rather than spouting the same tired drivel. I've seen MGF mentioning in multiple threads the 'ol "men have historically been top dogs so now they shouldn't be" line, like wtf, how is that an argument when discussing equality today? This is literally the dumbest thing anybody could say when they are supposedly all for equality. Some examples of supposed male privilege: Men are significantly more likely to kill themselves. Three times more likely than women. Life is so poor for many men and society gives them very little help, so they feel they need to end their own lives. Yay! Privilege! http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subnational-health4/suicides-in-the-united-kingdom/2013-registrations/suicides-in-the-united-kingdom--2013-registrations.html Men have general lower life expectancy and higher risks of cancer. Think about breast cancer and awareness of breast cancer in women etc, and all the funding it gets. Men can get it too of course, but there are types of gender-specific cancers that males can get that females can not, they are significantly more likely to die from cancer and also much more likely to get it in the first place, according to cancer research uk. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org/2009/06/15/why-are-men-more-likely-to-die-from-cancer/ I often see people talking about how women are largely unrepresented in government, yet when male problems are discussed in government, the idea is literally laughed at! Wooooo! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11962537/Whats-so-funny-about-a-mens-rights-debate.html Men are more likely to be homeless (I've seen a lot in the media about the "homeless period" recently, which is admittedly an awful thought, but where are the media discussing how we can actual tackle homelessness and get these men (just look around your town, homelessness is a mens issue) off the streets. From the simple virtue of being male, you are less likely to be granted custody of your children. Males have worse education and are more likely to be unemployed. Men are more likely to have drug and alcohol problems. Men are significantly more likely to experience violence from both men and women. Men are obviously the main victims of male violence, but they are also the main victims of violence from females. Women get the privilege of living longer, happier lives, with their children, in their homes, away from prison, free of drug and alcohol problems, and they are protected by most of society. Not a bad deal imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goDel Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The dumb thing with people like goDel and MGF I'm thinking there's some kind of straw man argument being fought in this thread where I'm put on the side of defending feminism. Not sure why though, as I wasn't even actively taking a side in any of it. But whatever though. Nice to have been able to provide someone with a rationalisation for another case on why male privilege is not what it is assumed to be by feminism (whatever that may be - apart from being another straw man). Or whatever the point is you think you are making. But hey, we're back again at: look here's proof against the "feminists" notion against male privilege. If you want to have that discussion, be my guest. I'm really not interested, and I wasn't arguing against or for. What I will leave you with is the following. The function I see in feminism is that it is a tool for women for taking their part in a discussion which happens to be about women, but is - historically speaking - largely being done by men. Count the amount of women in American politics, for instance. Same could be argued about the black twitter thing. It's about finding a voice and creating a shift in power and representation. This endless nonsense about truths, facts, stats and what not is besides the point, imo. So, within this tiny world of watmm, I'd argue that discussions on feminism or racism are useless without the people involved actually representing their perspective. I'm not interested in peoples knowledge of statistics and what not. The numbers can only tell part of the story. And can only be used as instruments of validation. I'd rather listen to a females perspective on gender equality. I admit I'd prefer it if she would be able to bring some valid facts to the table, though. As a guy I don't know what a woman is going through in this society, so it's better to sit and listen instead of getting into some argument about stats and facts, claiming I've got more knowledge because I have the best facts and stats at hand, and therefore I must be right and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psn Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Men have general lower life expectancy and higher risks of cancer. Think about breast cancer and awareness of breast cancer in women etc, and all the funding it gets. Men can get it too of course, but there are types of gender-specific cancers that males can get that females can not, they are significantly more likely to die from cancer and also much more likely to get it in the first place, according to cancer research uk. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org/2009/06/15/why-are-men-more-likely-to-die-from-cancer/ Typical "women's" diseases are still severely under funded with regards to research, a consequence of their low status among doctors, researchers and funders (who are all mostly men). Take ME/CFS as an example, patients are regularly met with the idea that they are merely imagining their disease, and that they can get well by simply getting their shit together, "thinking positive" and exercising. Instead of funding research for biomarkers, the illness is written off as a modern hysteria. A recent Lancet Psychology article (that is now being debunked) illustrates this kind of arrogance: http://www.virology.ws/2015/10/21/trial-by-error-i/ http://www.virology.ws/2015/10/22/trial-by-error-ii/ http://www.virology.ws/2015/10/23/trial-by-error-iii/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggy Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Maybe it all comes down to the fact that some people consider intelligence to be all about arguing and contradicting, to being contrary (the more contrary position being the right, these days) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awesomeperson Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Stefan Molyneux would fit the alt-right description as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goDel Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 That's a pretty good video actually, up until the 'joke' at the end at least (I don't have a problem with rape jokes in principal, they need to be funny though). Sokal's book is great, and very relevant to this thread. The menstruation/fluid dynamics bits were hilarious. Feminism is full of hilariously irrational nonsense, Bell Hooks is a great example, she combines religion and marxism, lol. I always assumed I was a feminist when I was growing up, thinking it was an ideology devoted to equality and egalitarianism. The last five years or so have been eye opening though, as the true content of their nutty beliefs have been aired to the world the backlash has been inevitable. She made a couple of interesting videos. Sometimes she seems to wander off in the bizarre outer limits of opinion, but she keeps making good arguments nevertheless, imo. And her videos talking trash on Laci Green are hilarious. (not that I'm anti-laci, btw) Her videos pointed me into the Esther Vilar thing, which is a healthy perspective to have as well, I think. This one's for zeff and his anti-feminism buddies (kidding!!!): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggy Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Maybe it all comes down to the fact that some people consider intelligence to be all about arguing and contradicting, to being contrary (the more contrary position being the right, these days) Then again maybe they just genuinely believe in the right-wing principles they espouse - though perhaps they don't even consider them right wing. I mean, right wing is only a general grouping - there's no reason someone can't be left wing economically and right wing about abortion for example In either case, more often than not I find most opinions to be intellectually dishonest or ignorant, on either side of left/right. Or in the center. I think most people are full of shit, and hardly anyone knows anything about anything if they really think about it Including me, I don't know anything, so forget eveything I just wrote, ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usagi Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 'alf you coonts need to get out more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggy Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 out where? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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