The rise of the 'Alt-Right' culture - thoughts?

[goDel]

space. mars perhaps?

[Adieu]

 

 

That's a pretty good video actually, up until the 'joke' at the end at least (I don't have a problem with rape jokes in principal, they need to be funny though). Sokal's book is great, and very relevant to this thread. The menstruation/fluid dynamics bits were hilarious. Feminism is full of hilariously irrational nonsense, Bell Hooks is a great example, she combines religion and marxism, lol. I always assumed I was a feminist when I was growing up, thinking it was an ideology devoted to equality and egalitarianism. The last five years or so have been eye opening though, as the true content of their nutty beliefs have been aired to the world the backlash has been inevitable.

 

 

She made a couple of interesting videos. Sometimes she seems to wander off in the bizarre outer limits of opinion, but she keeps making good arguments nevertheless, imo. And her videos talking trash on Laci Green are hilarious. (not that I'm anti-laci, btw) Her videos pointed me into the Esther Vilar thing, which is a healthy perspective to have as well, I think.

 

This one's for zeff and his anti-feminism buddies (kidding!!!):

 

 

That is really scary and reminds me of my ex.

[QQQ]

This endless nonsense about truths, facts, stats and what not is besides the point, imo.

If facts and figures aren't an indication of the truth, what is?

 

Men have higher chances of facing problems that involve their death, losing their families, homelessness, etc, so it does make me mad to see this male privilege bullshit being used as a scapegoat for every feminist in an argument and it does rile me up. What is more important - the fact men are killing themselves, or that there are less women CEOs? I've literally tried to discuss male problems with feminists before (including an ex girlfriend, someone very close to me at the time) and they were literally giving me the same shit. "Oh, men are killing themselves? Uh - well, that doesn't matter because men have had it easy for 10000 years!" Childish and dangerous thoughts for society to be having.

[goDel]

It besides the point, because this thread was about something different altogether. But somehow it got highjacked by the male rights movement and we're in this thing about truths and facts and what not. I'm afraid I can't be more clear than I currently am. So feel free to discuss this further, but don't expect any other involvement from my side.

[eugene]

 

This endless nonsense about truths, facts, stats and what not is besides the point, imo.

If facts and figures aren't an indication of the truth, what is?

 

Men have higher chances of facing problems that involve their death, losing their families, homelessness, etc, so it does make me mad to see this male privilege bullshit being used as a scapegoat for every feminist in an argument and it does rile me up. What is more important - the fact men are killing themselves, or that there are less women CEOs? I've literally tried to discuss male problems with feminists before (including an ex girlfriend, someone very close to me at the time) and they were literally giving me the same shit. "Oh, men are killing themselves? Uh - well, that doesn't matter because men have had it easy for 10000 years!" Childish and dangerous thoughts for society to be having.

 

sure patriarchy does come with some dangers to men, but what you get is complete dominion over the other sex and social life in general, pretty good deal at the end of it all.

[QQQ]

I didn't derail it, that had been running for a few pages before I posted. Besides, what good politics thread would be complete without a bit of derailment and argument? I just felt the need to post because Zeff was really getting jumped on for no reason.

 

sure patriarchy does come with some dangers to men, but what you get is complete dominion over the other sex and social life in general, pretty good deal at the end of it all.

That is kind of the point though isn't it, men don't have this big evil shadow over women controlling them and limiting them as you've just said they do. I have no access to anything women don't have. I have no rights they do not have. My life is not any easier or better than theirs as a result of my gender, and I'm sure it's the same for you.

[WeAreOceans]

sure patriarchy does come with some dangers to men, but what you get is complete dominion over the other sex and social life in general, pretty good deal at the end of it all.

 

P much my feelings on the matter - sure there is some shit I put up with for not being 100% macho, but at the end of the day I get taken seriously at my job, I don't get harassed walking down the street, I don't get physical harassment at nights out, life is easy. There is plenty of men's issues that need taking a look at like suicide rates and the like, but it's just weird when women's issues come up and people start hollering "but what about the men!". Female harassment and male suicide don't eclipse one another by being discussed, for example.

[goDel]

The reason why I jumped on Zeff was twofold.

- his emotional investment in this issue even though JE responded with this

 

Im actually not really interested in having the feminist discussion at all, that was not the purpose of making the thread. i take a little bit of offense to you trying to gauge how I actually land on that specific topic and imaging that I'm trying to paint a caricature of all people arguing against feminism. I am much more interested in the rise of what I see as a very specific alt-right media culture regardless of what 'true' points they can make about feminism or any other subject. This culture encompasses a lot of of different right leaning belief systems, and whether they've adopted what you see as 'valid' feminist critique and mixed it in with a bunch of utter bullshit, isn't my problem. I'd argue thats more of a problem for people who aren't conservative or misogynist having their (as you describe them) reality based arguments distorted and co-opted by complete morons ( who happen to be very loud right now)

 

- the way he brings his argument like some programmer/it-man. black/white, right/wrong, true/false and what not

 

And most of all perhaps the stubbornness in making his case for something nobody was arguing against, as far as I can tell.

 

The only time this derailment could be useful, is when the person who brought it to the table acknowledges his personal investment in the issue. And realises this is actually about some issues he's dealing with in real life about which he needs to talk, instead of actually adding something to the discussion.

[eugene]

I didn't derail it, that had been running for a few pages before I posted. Besides, what good politics thread would be complete without a bit of derailment and argument? I just felt the need to post because Zeff was really getting jumped on for no reason.

 

 

sure patriarchy does come with some dangers to men, but what you get is complete dominion over the other sex and social life in general, pretty good deal at the end of it all.

That is kind of the point though isn't it, men don't have this big evil shadow over women controlling them and limiting them as you've just said they do. I have no access to anything women don't have. I have no rights they do not have. My life is not any easier or better than theirs as a result of my gender, and I'm sure it's the same for you.

 

on aggregate the percentage of women in positions of power is clearly inferior to that of men, which naturally leads to the understanding that there are more obstacles in front of women compared to men.

[Adieu]

 

I didn't derail it, that had been running for a few pages before I posted. Besides, what good politics thread would be complete without a bit of derailment and argument? I just felt the need to post because Zeff was really getting jumped on for no reason.

 

sure patriarchy does come with some dangers to men, but what you get is complete dominion over the other sex and social life in general, pretty good deal at the end of it all.

That is kind of the point though isn't it, men don't have this big evil shadow over women controlling them and limiting them as you've just said they do. I have no access to anything women don't have. I have no rights they do not have. My life is not any easier or better than theirs as a result of my gender, and I'm sure it's the same for you.

 

on aggregate the percentage of women in positions of power is clearly inferior to that of men, which naturally leads to the understanding that there are more obstacles in front of women compared to men.

 

 

Inferior for a group that largely entered the workforce ~65 years ago? Not really.

[QQQ]

on aggregate the percentage of women in positions of power is clearly inferior to that of men, which naturally leads to the understanding that there are more obstacles in front of women compared to men.

Could you show me some examples of the obstacles you are talking about?

[hello spiral]

 

sure patriarchy does come with some dangers to men, but what you get is complete dominion over the other sex and social life in general, pretty good deal at the end of it all.

 

P much my feelings on the matter - sure there is some shit I put up with for not being 100% macho, but at the end of the day I get taken seriously at my job, I don't get harassed walking down the street, I don't get physical harassment at nights out, life is easy. There is plenty of men's issues that need taking a look at like suicide rates and the like, but it's just weird when women's issues come up and people start hollering "but what about the men!". Female harassment and male suicide don't eclipse one another by being discussed, for example.

 

 

A+ post

 

A ten year old news story about a woman who allegedly (her ex's accusation) got pregnant without his consent is not proof of anything ffs.

 

Also @godel, agreed. He brings this baggage/obsession with him everywhere he goes

[eugene]

 

on aggregate the percentage of women in positions of power is clearly inferior to that of men, which naturally leads to the understanding that there are more obstacles in front of women compared to men.

Could you show me some examples of the obstacles you are talking about?

 

the social understanding that woman is the primary caretaker and that it's her duty to take care of the children and home in general and provide support to the male breadwinner is still very strong even in the west.

[Guest Atom Dowry Firth]

Zeff was really getting jumped on for no reason

 

Is this satire?

[QQQ]

 

 

on aggregate the percentage of women in positions of power is clearly inferior to that of men, which naturally leads to the understanding that there are more obstacles in front of women compared to men.

Could you show me some examples of the obstacles you are talking about?

the social understanding that woman is the primary caretaker and that it's her duty to take care of the children and home in general and provide support to the male breadwinner is still very strong even in the west.

That is not an obstacle to their daily lives.

 

A) it only effects families. Usually families are a choice. A choice which the woman (and man) has chose.

 

B) do you think most women want to give up the position? Hell no. There has recently been a law come into the UK about sharing maternal leave with the fathers, but as far as I know it hasn't really changed anything. Families are still choosing the mother to be the main parent to raise the child through infancy and to take most of the leave.

 

C) are we ignoring the difference in biology between men and women? There is a reason women are generally the most involved the a child's upbringing. It's not society that has chosen women to be the main parent.

 

To be honest this point isn't really relevant because it's a choice. Can you give me the examples you are talking about, where girls and women are facing obstacles in their daily lives, that they don't choose.

 

 

Is this satire?

Admittedly I had forgotten some of what he had posted about and was focusing the points he was talking about that resonated with me, so I may have missed some stuff he had said. I'm not saying I agree with everything he said because honestly I don't remember it all. I read through this thread first thing this morning and I also skimmed through a few pages. But I felt the argument was very one sided and he had made some sensible posts.

[goDel]

[goDel]

hmmm, perhaps we could coin the term "alt-fact culture"?

[QQQ]

all i know is if someone on an electronic music forum that is 99% male tells me that there is no such thing as oppression or inequality then they surely must be the authority on the subject.

I can't speak for others but I am happy to say as much as I like it round these parts, most of my life experience does not come from here.

 

As usual, I am happy to be shown otherwise/wrong, but so far you guys have just played up to the fact you don't have anything real to say.

 

I'm genuinely interested now; could one of you guys please give me some examples of oppression that effects the daily lives on girls and women.

 

Edit: I'd just like to explain, in case it is not obvious, that I understand both genders face their own difficulties at times, but I've gotten caught up in some of these replies and am curious to see how they come to the conclusion that women in general are oppressed.

[zlemflolia]

It besides the point, because this thread was about something different altogether. But somehow it got highjacked by the male rights movement and we're in this thing about truths and facts and what not. I'm afraid I can't be more clear than I currently am. So feel free to discuss this further, but don't expect any other involvement from my side.

 

Was such a breath of fresh air to see QQQ actually bringing valuable discussion points to the conversation and it even more starkly draws the contrast between your quasi intellectual bullshit and the rest of the world

 

Please say something of substance, I'm desperate.

 

Guess numbers aren't good enough for you. If any one of the numbers he or I have countless times provided applied to women instead, they'd be the new #1 feminist talking point

 

But yeah change the subject after you've been shown to be completely ignorant of this topic

[zlemflolia]

 

 

sure patriarchy does come with some dangers to men, but what you get is complete dominion over the other sex and social life in general, pretty good deal at the end of it all.

 

P much my feelings on the matter - sure there is some shit I put up with for not being 100% macho, but at the end of the day I get taken seriously at my job, I don't get harassed walking down the street, I don't get physical harassment at nights out, life is easy. There is plenty of men's issues that need taking a look at like suicide rates and the like, but it's just weird when women's issues come up and people start hollering "but what about the men!". Female harassment and male suicide don't eclipse one another by being discussed, for example.

 

 

A+ post

 

A ten year old news story about a woman who allegedly (her ex's accusation) got pregnant without his consent is not proof of anything ffs.

 

Also @godel, agreed. He brings this baggage/obsession with him everywhere he goes

 

 

I did not even bring that up in this thread you guys did

[zlemflolia]

 

 

on aggregate the percentage of women in positions of power is clearly inferior to that of men, which naturally leads to the understanding that there are more obstacles in front of women compared to men.

Could you show me some examples of the obstacles you are talking about?

 

the social understanding that woman is the primary caretaker and that it's her duty to take care of the children and home in general and provide support to the male breadwinner is still very strong even in the west.

 

 

Yeah, and the social understanding that man is the primary provider and that it's his duty to provide for his wife and children even at the expense of his mental wellbeing, health, and even life, is also very strong even in the west. And clearly this has more of an effect on humans than being expected to be a stay at home mother, given the significantly higher suicide rate for men and their significantly lower life expectancies

 

But yeah only the expectations placed upon women matter, the ones placed upon men are just standard /s. The issue is men don't want to risk saying something society may deem as not macho so few men speak out about these expectations

[zlemflolia]

all i know is if someone on an electronic music forum that is 99% male tells me that there is no such thing as oppression or inequality then they surely must be the authority on the subject.

 

All I know is that men seem to be the number one authorities on attacking anyone who questions the feminist talking point that "women are oppressed" when they are absolutely 100% clearly not. Their privilege in society is routinely denied by feminists and not even acknowledged in any way

 

Men are told to "check their privilege" constantly yet a similar phrase is never uttered to women despite them having enormous privileges in all areas of life, from a lack of expectations to act as providers to complete control of their children and joint spousal assets in the event of divorce, to the fact that they tend to spend significantly more household income on personal items than men despite earning less money on average

 

As I said before, sorry but I can't take anyone seriously who claims that a group of people who spends $8b yearly on makeup is oppressed.

[zlemflolia]

 

Edit: I'd just like to explain, in case it is not obvious, that I understand both genders face their own difficulties at times, but I've gotten caught up in some of these replies and am curious to see how they come to the conclusion that women in general are oppressed.

 

 

I am extremely curious as well, that is my #1 issue with all this shit apart from how men's rights issues are denied consideration by feminists on the grounds that women are oppressed. If I wanted to take it further into conspiracy-theory-but-not-really territory I'd say women love "oppressed minority" status because it funnels more resources to them even though the majority of the world's resources are already funneled towards them

[Alcofribas]

i'm w zeff & qqq on this one guys. women are definitely NOT oppressed. here are some facts so you can check your privilege you cunty third wavers:

 

FACT: men are more likely to die of ice. undeniable.

- men have overall more painful erections. try living with that ladies. i don't think so. cunts.

- men feel bad about themselves sometimes. TRUTH BULLET.

- men are more likely to suffer financial loss. how fucking depressing.

- men struggle more than women to make sick beats and lush pads. hey vaginas, do you know how hard this is?

- men are more likely to rape other men. FACT.

- men have to spend more minutes per lifetime cleaning up their cum after masturbation. unreal.

- more men suffer from snow-blindness per annum. ugh.

 

now take a look at these fucking facts you feminazis!!!!

 

FACT: women cry more than men. indicates decadent hydration.

- women spend millions on luxurious materials to sop up their menstruation. fucking disgusting waste.

- women have higher-pitched voices which make them overall more well-off than men. VERITAS.

- women eat more ice cream than men, which proves they have it good. (not sure if true tho)

- women get to stay at home and cook dope meals and chill with cool kids and shit and watch shows. lush.

- women can get any job whatsoever whereas men can only get back-breaking labor. FUCKED UP.

- women don't have to try at anything bc men do all the work.

- women pain their nails.

 

you guys really need to look in the mirror. the mirror your girlfriend cleaned while you were at work contemplating suicide. it's 2015. men are in serious fucking danger. pretty soon it'll be a bunch of jew women controlling everything. unless it's too late.

[eugene]

 

 

 

on aggregate the percentage of women in positions of power is clearly inferior to that of men, which naturally leads to the understanding that there are more obstacles in front of women compared to men.

Could you show me some examples of the obstacles you are talking about?

 

the social understanding that woman is the primary caretaker and that it's her duty to take care of the children and home in general and provide support to the male breadwinner is still very strong even in the west.

 

That is not an obstacle to their daily lives.

 

A) it only effects families. Usually families are a choice. A choice which the woman (and man) has chose.

 

B) do you think most women want to give up the position? Hell no. There has recently been a law come into the UK about sharing maternal leave with the fathers, but as far as I know it hasn't really changed anything. Families are still choosing the mother to be the main parent to raise the child through infancy and to take most of the leave.

 

C) are we ignoring the difference in biology between men and women? There is a reason women are generally the most involved the a child's upbringing. It's not society that has chosen women to be the main parent.

 

To be honest this point isn't really relevant because it's a choice. Can you give me the examples you are talking about, where girls and women are facing obstacles in their daily lives, that they don't choose.

a. it's not a choice with equal consequences, be a single childless unfeminine weirdo or a good proper childbearing woman. "choice" is a very problematic notion in social science.

 

b. they don't because the other position is much more difficult hold in current societal constraints. no one's really choosing anything, woman is expected and pushed to be the caretaker and supporter of the husband, its her "default" role that's well rehearsed and entails much less power than that of man's.

 

c. biological differences don't matter. we're not animals, our behaviors are a results of our consciousness. there's absolutely no reason or some biological determinant making it impossible for woman to leave the child to husband's care completely.