caze Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 of course biological differences matter, we are animals, and the blank slate hypothesis is bullshit. that doesn't mean we're mindless automatons, slaves to our genes and the wiring of our brains. all choice is constrained, both by social factors and biological predispositions. that doesn't mean that certain biological factors make things impossible, of course a woman can abandon her biological drives and leave her child in someone else's care, and she should of course have every right to do so. but that doesn't mean it's likely she will want to, or that it will make her any happier or more fulfilled in life if she does. it's also important to not fall prey to the naturalistic fallacy here, just because something has developed naturally (i.e. social gender roles based on sexual dimorphism), doesn't mean it's just, but it doesn't mean the opposite either. and even if we decide we want to overcome our natural tendencies, we can only do so if we fully understand them, and we're very far from that at the moment unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Yeah, and men are socially expected to be the primary financial provider and if they don't do that they're viewed as deadbeat dad scumbags, and are legally held responsible via alimony and child support payments Both sexes have gender role expectations placed upon them, so how do the expectations placed upon women indicate gender rights inequalities and supposed oppression when they are applied to men as well? This is not some one-sided thing against women, it goes both ways, but as usual the disadvantages specific to being a man are ignored and labelled default instead of negatives because men want to avoid losing their macho appeal by complaining about them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flacid Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 lol. A lot of Zeff's points are undeniably true. I'm not sure what people are disagreeing with, his tone, his reasoning or that it's him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 Maybe it all comes down to the fact that some people consider intelligence to be all about arguing and contradicting, to being contrary (the more contrary position being the right, these days) thats pretty much it I think. as long as you can 'win an argument' thats all that matters. Its a technique that neoconservatives in this country have gotten amazingly good at. If one of them 'debates' Noam Chomsky and appears to 'win' then a bunch of people who don't like Chomsky automatically wrongly believe that Chomsky's points are worthless, because they were delivered by Chomsky, not because any of the core points were actually debunked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 of course biological differences matter, we are animals, and the blank slate hypothesis is bullshit. that doesn't mean we're mindless automatons, slaves to our genes and the wiring of our brains. all choice is constrained, both by social factors and biological predispositions. that doesn't mean that certain biological factors make things impossible, of course a woman can abandon her biological drives and leave her child in someone else's care, and she should of course have every right to do so. but that doesn't mean it's likely she will want to, or that it will make her any happier or more fulfilled in life if she does. it's also important to not fall prey to the naturalistic fallacy here, just because something has developed naturally (i.e. social gender roles based on sexual dimorphism), doesn't mean it's just, but it doesn't mean the opposite either. and even if we decide we want to overcome our natural tendencies, we can only do so if we fully understand them, and we're very far from that at the moment unfortunately. there's no evidence for any biological drives for human behaviour, it's archaic nonsense. the so called scientific racists have been trying to find that shit for decades, but all their research turned out to be poop, same with biological determinants for intelligence or whatever. with humans when it comes to behavior it's all about consciousness construction and meaning attachment. no gender roles developed naturally, they vary a lot across different cultures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Yeah, and men are socially expected to be the primary financial provider and if they don't do that they're viewed as deadbeat dad scumbags, and are legally held responsible via alimony and child support payments Both sexes have gender role expectations placed upon them, so how do the expectations placed upon women indicate gender rights inequalities and supposed oppression when they are applied to men as well? This is not some one-sided thing against women, it goes both ways, but as usual the disadvantages specific to being a man are ignored and labelled default instead of negatives because men want to avoid losing their macho appeal by complaining about them because it's not symmetrical when it concerns power relations, the roles are different, and men's roles make them much more powerful compared to women in the society even despite some disadvantages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubbhasdance Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Thinking of cumming in a few minutes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 lol. A lot of Zeff's points are undeniably true. I'm not sure what people are disagreeing with, his tone, his reasoning or that it's him? This. I mean literally how the fuck could someone actually think women are a whole are oppressed in western society, or deny that women have many privileges men don't? Come the fuck on, it makes me sad that these people can vote I mean I know not everyone is interested in having an actual discussion on the topic, there's lots of shitposting going on where the person only makes that post in this thread, but I haven't seen anyone even try to refute anything I've said, they use wishy washy statements like "You're missing the point" and "If you looked at it from their perspective", and "well, historically..." None of that is even remotely valuable or useful in proving a point Yeah, and men are socially expected to be the primary financial provider and if they don't do that they're viewed as deadbeat dad scumbags, and are legally held responsible via alimony and child support payments Both sexes have gender role expectations placed upon them, so how do the expectations placed upon women indicate gender rights inequalities and supposed oppression when they are applied to men as well? This is not some one-sided thing against women, it goes both ways, but as usual the disadvantages specific to being a man are ignored and labelled default instead of negatives because men want to avoid losing their macho appeal by complaining about them because it's not symmetrical when it concerns power relations, the roles are different, and men's roles make them much more powerful compared to women in the society even despite some disadvantages. What is power and how are the men's roles making them much more powerful compared to the women? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autopilot Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Mughnus Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 lol. A lot of Zeff's points are undeniably true. I'm not sure what people are disagreeing with, his tone, his reasoning or that it's him? and "well, historically..." None of that is even remotely valuable or useful in proving a point uh wat....? this is exactly what you need to show/look at to prove a point pertaining to things that.. you know... happen historically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 lol. A lot of Zeff's points are undeniably true. I'm not sure what people are disagreeing with, his tone, his reasoning or that it's him? This. I mean literally how the fuck could someone actually think women are a whole are oppressed in western society, or deny that women have many privileges men don't? Come the fuck on, it makes me sad that these people can vote I mean I know not everyone is interested in having an actual discussion on the topic, there's lots of shitposting going on where the person only makes that post in this thread, but I haven't seen anyone even try to refute anything I've said, they use wishy washy statements like "You're missing the point" and "If you looked at it from their perspective", and "well, historically..." None of that is even remotely valuable or useful in proving a point Yeah, and men are socially expected to be the primary financial provider and if they don't do that they're viewed as deadbeat dad scumbags, and are legally held responsible via alimony and child support payments Both sexes have gender role expectations placed upon them, so how do the expectations placed upon women indicate gender rights inequalities and supposed oppression when they are applied to men as well? This is not some one-sided thing against women, it goes both ways, but as usual the disadvantages specific to being a man are ignored and labelled default instead of negatives because men want to avoid losing their macho appeal by complaining about them because it's not symmetrical when it concerns power relations, the roles are different, and men's roles make them much more powerful compared to women in the society even despite some disadvantages. What is power and how are the men's roles making them much more powerful compared to the women? power is the ability to make you do something even if it's against your will. looks at percentages of women in any highly valued professions, sciences, government positions, army, and so on. the decisions that affect's most peoples lives are predominantly made by men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 lol. A lot of Zeff's points are undeniably true. I'm not sure what people are disagreeing with, his tone, his reasoning or that it's him? and "well, historically..." None of that is even remotely valuable or useful in proving a point uh wat....? this is exactly what you need to show/look at to prove a point pertaining to things that.. you know... happen historically. I don't care about what happened historically, only what is happening right now. Women can vote, they can pursue any profession they want, they have all legal rights men have and some they don't What the fuck more do they want to no longer be considered oppressed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan C Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Someone please try to harvest my semen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Mughnus Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 lol. A lot of Zeff's points are undeniably true. I'm not sure what people are disagreeing with, his tone, his reasoning or that it's him? and "well, historically..." None of that is even remotely valuable or useful in proving a point uh wat....? this is exactly what you need to show/look at to prove a point pertaining to things that.. you know... happen historically. I don't care about what happened historically, only what is happening right now. Women can vote, they can pursue any profession they want, they have all legal rights men have and some they don't What the fuck more do they want to no longer be considered oppressed? historically means as recent as the minute that just passed btw fyi byob for example historically your biggest fear in leaving your parents house is having your hair get cut by strangers. Even though that's as recent as august 2015, it's historical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 power is the ability to make you do something even if it's against your will. looks at percentages of women in any highly valued professions, sciences, government positions, army, and so on. the decisions that affect's most peoples lives are predominantly made by men. Yeah, and 99% of men will never be in those positions of power, and guess what - the only gender related issues being addressed right now are women's issues, regardless of the gender of the people in power. Surely the ACTUAL RESULTS of x group being in power is more important than their gender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KovalainenFanBoy Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 they use wishy washy statements like "You're missing the point" and "If you looked at it from their perspective", and "well, historically..." None of that is even remotely valuable or useful in proving a point So you're saying stuff like empathy and historical context are not valuable arguments when discussing men's and women's rights. And then wondering why nobody wants an intelligent discussion. Uhum. Right. Gotcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Jan Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 they use wishy washy statements like "You're missing the point" and "If you looked at it from their perspective", and "well, historically..." None of that is even remotely valuable or useful in proving a point So you're saying stuff like empathy and historical context are not valuable arguments when discussing men's and women's rights. And then wondering why nobody wants an intelligent discussion. Uhum. Right. Gotcha. People tend to be significantly more empathetic to women than men, this is scientifically demonstrated Yeah, empathy towards people is a great quality and everyone should be empathetic towards EVERYONE, but where is the evidence that women are the ones in need of the most empathy right now? I'd say that's definitely not the case, they are already the number one recipients of the western world's sympathy and empathy and concerns and healthcare funding and attention and just about everything else, yet they claim "we're oppressed" Give me a break The fact that I'm failing to live up to the social expectations that men should always put women on a golden magical pedestal makes it seem to you like I'm being a horrible person when I'm really just trying to look at the situation of women in a way that is still more empathetic than society looks at the situation of men, which is cold heartedly and with disinterest if it's looked at at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan C Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I'm sat here reading this thread with a cup of tea like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Mughnus Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autopilot Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Just sittin here reading this thread like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest unteleportedman Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 i tend to be more emphathetic to female dancing words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Mughnus Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Yep, okay "women aren't oppressed" --> "Men are oppressed and I'm crying at my oppression" Yep that's definitely a reasonable conclusion. It would be great if people could stick to attacking things I've, you know, actually said. But I guess that can't be expected on a topic where the vast majority of people have retarded views one way or the other. There is no longer any gender issues moderatism which is what I'm trying to advocate for on the basis that most ideological explanations and modern dogma are fucking retardedly wrong. Continue misrepresenting everything I've said to "make" your point though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubbhasdance Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Cum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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