lightweight midi controller with endless encoders and visual feedback?

[thawkins]

I'm looking for something small that could be used to control basic Ableton Live mixer stuff such as volume, pan, eq, sends. Push is not what I want because it's a) too big b) I don't really care for having *all* the computer GUI features replicated in hardware. If there was a version of Push that's just display, 8 knobs and 8 push buttons I'd probably get it.

 

So far there's only two things that kind of seem like what I want - the Midi Fighter Twister and Faderfox UC4.

 

Twister seems good because it's got 16 encoders and seems to have a lot of functional capabilities but I don't know how well it works with Live out of the box seeing as it seems to be oriented more for DJing than regular DAW control. I can hack together my own scripts and mappings but it's kind of a rabbit hole I've already spent too much time on, so I'd rather not.

 

The UC4 seems really nice and small and already comes with Live scripts. There's barely any review for it though so it's still difficult to understand how it works in action. But it already has a pretty good physical layout, visual feedback and it's easy to imagine it as a mixer.

 

Third option is of course to get some used tablet and run TouchOSC or some other Live remote app on it. Or I could re-solder and re-build my shitty attempt at Doepfer Pocket Control so it doesn't shoot random MIDI values because of some interference. But time spent on tinkering with the soldering iron has been cutting into time spent on music a lot recently, so I'm looking for some ready-made solution.

[iococoi]

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XTouchMini

[Silent Member]

Description sounds like akai lpd-8, never used it though, I doubt it will do most of the fun stuff Push does.

[thawkins]

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XTouchMini

 

Thanks! Can't believe I forgot about that one. It might actually do the trick. The fact that it supports Mackie Control is pretty nice already. The documentation is kind of skimpy on the details but the Sound On Sound review seems positive.

 

Description sounds like akai lpd-8, never used it though, I doubt it will do most of the fun stuff Push does.

 

It's not exactly what I'm after, the knobs on the LPD-8 aren't endless and there's no visual feedback.

[Silent Member]

My bad.

 

The Novation Launch control perhaps? I've had a terrible time with the Novation controllers I've used so far though.

 

Fuck it, they're not endless.

[thawkins]

My bad.

 

The Novation Launch control perhaps? I've had a terrible time with the Novation controllers I've used so far though.

 

Fuck it, they're not endless.

 

 

Yeah, the reason I want endless and visual feedback is that if you use the same knobs for all different stuff then pretty soon you'll run into takeover issues where the knob's position is nowhere near the actual value. No takeover results in glitches, value scaling is weird and doesn't make sense (maybe I haven't tried enough though), and pickup requires you to squint at the laptop screen to know where you need to move the knob to (and you need to be careful not to move too fast etc.).

Also endless is good for fine tuning whereas regular knobs often give you only values between 0-127. Even if fine tuning is not implemented in the software, it is possible without modifying the hardware.

[b born droid]

I used a Novation Nocturn for a good few years, especially when I was gigging in a band and needed to constantly jump between presets and channels and know there wouldn't be any problem with takeover etc.  Was already mapped with Ableton, and at the time it also had automap so was very easy to create custom pages etc.

 

After a while I found a few of the knobs did spaz out on the odd occasion - but to be honest that might have been through a lot of wear and me throwing it in my gig bag with reckless abandon.

[thawkins]

I used to have a Nocturn keyboard. That was many years ago and I was young and foolish, but the Automap software always felt really flimsy and unintuitive for me. I still have some projects depending on the weird VST_NAME (Automap) mapping things the setup automatically created in order to use it. Of course things may have improved now..

 

There's even one for sale on local CL, whereas I can't find the Behringer neither on Amazon or Thomann, which is alarming. 

[auxien]

Did you ever get something? I've got a UC4 if you have any questions.

[thawkins]

Did you ever get something? I've got a UC4 if you have any questions.

 

I probably would have gone forward and got the Behringer if only for the Mackie Control support, but they seemed to be out of stock anywhere I could find.

I then decided to try out setting up my Akai MPK Mini with my half baked Ableton Live control surface script, using value scaling as takeover mode. So far it seems to work OK, so in the interests of not fueling my GAS with any more stuff I don't really need, I decided not to buy anything.

 

However if you've ever used the UC4 with Ableton Live, I'd really be interested to know how it works, because there's almost no video reviews about it. I'm particularly interested if it's got any functionality for actually launching/recording scenes or clips. Thanks in advance! :)

[TubularCorporation]

I was right on the edge of getting a Faderfox UC4 to control track level and cue level (for using as an aux send) or pan on my Octatrack, but ended up putting the money I'd saved up toward a Tanzmaus instead. 

 

The Faderfox stuff is pretty expensive but it was the only controller I could find that had all the features I needed in the form factor I needed, everything else was too big or USB-only.

 

At any rate, I'm still considering getting one down the road, maybe next year.

 

My one complaint is it does the whole MIDI on a 1/8" phono jack thing, which makes sense for keeping the size down but always seems ripe for breaking or getting scratchy to me, and not being able to use any run of the mill MIDI cable you have handy is a hassle.  But it still seems like the best option out there for me and it seems like you're looking for almost exactly the same thing I am.

 

 

OTOH, the Midi Fighter Twister is on sale right now, and today's the last day it will be, so it might be worth grabbing since it'll probably be around 1/3 the cost of the Faderfox.

[Nil]

I have a MIDI Fighter Twister, it's a nice bit of kit.

[TubularCorporation]

I have a MIDI Fighter Twister, it's a nice bit of kit.

 

 

Yeah, only reason I don't have one is I specifically need DIN MIDI on board and faders, otherwise it would be my first choice based on reputation and form factor.

[auxien]

 

Did you ever get something? I've got a UC4 if you have any questions.

I probably would have gone forward and got the Behringer if only for the Mackie Control support, but they seemed to be out of stock anywhere I could find.

I then decided to try out setting up my Akai MPK Mini with my half baked Ableton Live control surface script, using value scaling as takeover mode. So far it seems to work OK, so in the interests of not fueling my GAS with any more stuff I don't really need, I decided not to buy anything.

 

However if you've ever used the UC4 with Ableton Live, I'd really be interested to know how it works, because there's almost no video reviews about it. I'm particularly interested if it's got any functionality for actually launching/recording scenes or clips. Thanks in advance! :)

Ableton is the only thing I've ever used it with actually.

 

Basically, it's just a fully mappable midi controller...there are some preset mappings when you get it, but they don't do anything special beyond being already tied to some specific Ableton functions for the levels on tracks 1-16 and such...basic stuff.

 

It's not really designed for launching clips (though this is likely possible, will check later), it's more for using how you want to. Small quality mappable controller is all it is essentially. Will give some more detail later :)

[psn]

I have a MIDI Fighter Twister, it's a nice bit of kit.

 

I see you can send it MIDI messages to set the RGB color and start animations - but do you know if one can also send it a MIDI message to set the segment value?

[thawkins]

 

 

Did you ever get something? I've got a UC4 if you have any questions.

I probably would have gone forward and got the Behringer if only for the Mackie Control support, but they seemed to be out of stock anywhere I could find.

I then decided to try out setting up my Akai MPK Mini with my half baked Ableton Live control surface script, using value scaling as takeover mode. So far it seems to work OK, so in the interests of not fueling my GAS with any more stuff I don't really need, I decided not to buy anything.

 

However if you've ever used the UC4 with Ableton Live, I'd really be interested to know how it works, because there's almost no video reviews about it. I'm particularly interested if it's got any functionality for actually launching/recording scenes or clips. Thanks in advance! :)

Ableton is the only thing I've ever used it with actually.

 

Basically, it's just a fully mappable midi controller...there are some preset mappings when you get it, but they don't do anything special beyond being already tied to some specific Ableton functions for the levels on tracks 1-16 and such...basic stuff.

 

It's not really designed for launching clips (though this is likely possible, will check later), it's more for using how you want to. Small quality mappable controller is all it is essentially. Will give some more detail later :)

 

 

Thanks!

I was curious how deep the integration goes. The Behringer has a really good review on youtube showing the Mackie Control capabilities, which is basically that the control surface auto-maps to volumes, pans, sends and device parameters. That's essentially what I'm looking for, but it depends a lot on the control surface script if these features and mappings are written in or not. I don't particularly want to start scripting those features in the UC4 script.

 

 

By the way, I'm glad it's already the next day here so I don't even have to think about that MIDI fighter sale. :) 

[auxien]

Okay so no, the UC4 won't do any auto-mapping beyond the couple of preset sections designed for Ableton. Check out this part if you've not checked out the manual, but as you'll see they're not anything too special, nor will they work 'automatically' with more than 16 tracks or whatever....

 

"Ableton Live mode
The setups 17 and 18 are preconfigured for using with Live 8/9. The display shows special group names for the encoder groups (see below). setup 17 controls tracks 1 to 8, setup 18 controls tracks 9 to 16"

 

So you'd have to switch setups if you're using more than 8 tracks in Ableton...however, switching setups on the fly is very quick.

 

Go to page 6 of the manual to read a little more detail: http://www.faderfox.de/PDF/UC4%20Manual%20V01.pdf

 

You can trigger scenes, trigger clips, enact global record, all sorts of shit...but none of it shows any real indicators beyond blinking lights. You've gotta memorize what each thing does...the face of the UC4 does have some of these things written on them BUT THEY'RE SMALL and you'll likely not be reading them quickly or easily.

 

Honesty if you're mostly looking to trigger clips, change volume, etc., UC4 is not for you. It could work, but it's not your best option. I think you should get a Push, despite you saying it's too big for you, it's fucking great to have and literally perfect for what your use case seems to be. Large, yes, but shit does it change how I interact with Ableton. Not sure if you've ever used one at all but it's a whole world of difference. They biggest part of my suggesting it to you again is that you obviously want something that's 'smart' that always knows what's happening on the screen and adapts at will...some of the other devices you mention do seem to fit those criteria and may be great for you, but I'm really a fan of Push + Ableton. Push 1s are out there for cheap right now...planning on selling mine at some point and getting the Push 2. Push 1 does sorta-kinda fix your not wanting all the GUI on the hardware as the display is very much just text at all times. I'll shut up now :)

 

"So, auxien, why do YOU use a UC4 with Ableton then? It doesn't sound very useful!"

 

Well, person, I use it for mapping specific things so that they are ALWAYS accessible without my having to think about it or switch tracks on Push and then find the right device and then I can change the _____....UC4 is always there, small and out of the way but does exactly what I need it to when I'm making quick sudden changes or slow subtle ones while also doing other things on Push or elsewhere. I only use one setup on it currently (you can save 18) so it's a very one-task-per-knob/fader/button thing for me, but it's perfect for that. Very quick to MIDI map in Ableton so I can always try out new things, modify existing ones, etc. I love it for what it is, but it's not for everyone of course. I have a very specific use case for it.

[Danny O Flannagin]

 

 

 

Did you ever get something? I've got a UC4 if you have any questions.

I probably would have gone forward and got the Behringer if only for the Mackie Control support, but they seemed to be out of stock anywhere I could find.

I then decided to try out setting up my Akai MPK Mini with my half baked Ableton Live control surface script, using value scaling as takeover mode. So far it seems to work OK, so in the interests of not fueling my GAS with any more stuff I don't really need, I decided not to buy anything.

 

However if you've ever used the UC4 with Ableton Live, I'd really be interested to know how it works, because there's almost no video reviews about it. I'm particularly interested if it's got any functionality for actually launching/recording scenes or clips. Thanks in advance! :)

Ableton is the only thing I've ever used it with actually.

 

Basically, it's just a fully mappable midi controller...there are some preset mappings when you get it, but they don't do anything special beyond being already tied to some specific Ableton functions for the levels on tracks 1-16 and such...basic stuff.

 

It's not really designed for launching clips (though this is likely possible, will check later), it's more for using how you want to. Small quality mappable controller is all it is essentially. Will give some more detail later :)

 

 

Thanks!

I was curious how deep the integration goes. The Behringer has a really good review on youtube showing the Mackie Control capabilities, which is basically that the control surface auto-maps to volumes, pans, sends and device parameters. That's essentially what I'm looking for, but it depends a lot on the control surface script if these features and mappings are written in or not. I don't particularly want to start scripting those features in the UC4 script.

 

 

By the way, I'm glad it's already the next day here so I don't even have to think about that MIDI fighter sale. :) 

 

 

This controller looks perfect for what I need. My one concern after watching the video was that he seemed to be twisting the knobs a lot more than I'd like. Is there any way to increase or decrease the sensitivity of the knobs? 

 

I understand it'd be nice to have a somewhat low sensitivity because that would give you the ability to tweak things subtly, but it'd make it a lot harder for just jamming out

[thawkins]

Okay so no, the UC4 won't do any auto-mapping beyond the couple of preset sections designed for Ableton. Check out this part if you've not checked out the manual, but as you'll see they're not anything too special, nor will they work 'automatically' with more than 16 tracks or whatever....

 

"Ableton Live mode

The setups 17 and 18 are preconfigured for using with Live 8/9. The display shows special group names for the encoder groups (see below). setup 17 controls tracks 1 to 8, setup 18 controls tracks 9 to 16"

 

So you'd have to switch setups if you're using more than 8 tracks in Ableton...however, switching setups on the fly is very quick.

 

Go to page 6 of the manual to read a little more detail: http://www.faderfox.de/PDF/UC4%20Manual%20V01.pdf

 

You can trigger scenes, trigger clips, enact global record, all sorts of shit...but none of it shows any real indicators beyond blinking lights. You've gotta memorize what each thing does...the face of the UC4 does have some of these things written on them BUT THEY'RE SMALL and you'll likely not be reading them quickly or easily.

 

Honesty if you're mostly looking to trigger clips, change volume, etc., UC4 is not for you. It could work, but it's not your best option. I think you should get a Push, despite you saying it's too big for you, it's fucking great to have and literally perfect for what your use case seems to be. Large, yes, but shit does it change how I interact with Ableton. Not sure if you've ever used one at all but it's a whole world of difference. They biggest part of my suggesting it to you again is that you obviously want something that's 'smart' that always knows what's happening on the screen and adapts at will...some of the other devices you mention do seem to fit those criteria and may be great for you, but I'm really a fan of Push + Ableton. Push 1s are out there for cheap right now...planning on selling mine at some point and getting the Push 2. Push 1 does sorta-kinda fix your not wanting all the GUI on the hardware as the display is very much just text at all times. I'll shut up now :)

 

"So, auxien, why do YOU use a UC4 with Ableton then? It doesn't sound very useful!"

 

Well, person, I use it for mapping specific things so that they are ALWAYS accessible without my having to think about it or switch tracks on Push and then find the right device and then I can change the _____....UC4 is always there, small and out of the way but does exactly what I need it to when I'm making quick sudden changes or slow subtle ones while also doing other things on Push or elsewhere. I only use one setup on it currently (you can save 18) so it's a very one-task-per-knob/fader/button thing for me, but it's perfect for that. Very quick to MIDI map in Ableton so I can always try out new things, modify existing ones, etc. I love it for what it is, but it's not for everyone of course. I have a very specific use case for it.

 

Yeah I guess you are right about the Push. I have used one for a very brief period - it was my jamming mate's and I could not get used to it enough to actually know how to use it, so now my impression is colored by mostly feelings of confusion and "uh that thing will take up half my desk room". That said, the LED display and the encoders were exactly what I am looking for. 

 

Thanks for describing the UC4. I know now that even though it's a nice small controller, if I do get it I am going to have to elbow deep into the script to fix up the automatic mappings and this already makes it worth a lot less for me. I think for the time being I'll try to stick with my MPK mini for knobs and 1st gen launchpad for the clips. The Pushes seem to crop up on Craigslist every once and a while so I can always give it a try later.

 

 

This controller looks perfect for what I need. My one concern after watching the video was that he seemed to be twisting the knobs a lot more than I'd like. Is there any way to increase or decrease the sensitivity of the knobs? 

 

I understand it'd be nice to have a somewhat low sensitivity because that would give you the ability to tweak things subtly, but it'd make it a lot harder for just jamming out

 

 

Not sure about changing the sensitivity. The deal with endless encoders seems to be that it's a tradeoff between sensitivity and accuracy. The UC4 documentation specifically mentions that they have developed some custom acceleration mode to increase the speeds of parameter change when the encoder is turned rapidly. I haven't really taken a very close look at the Behringer docs available on the internet, but it doesn't seem to have a lot of information in it.

In fact I am really curious as to why it seems to be out of stock everywhere, but at the same time it is literally the only cheapo controller which has encoders and visual feedback AND Mackie Control - this seems like such a killer functionality. Why isn't anyone else making those?

[iococoi]

regarding "out of stock"..that depends on your location..US: sweetwater, f.i. got them in stock, for UK: some @amazon.co.uk..EU: musicstore.de..

[thawkins]

regarding "out of stock"..that depends on your location..US: sweetwater, f.i. got them in stock, for UK: some @amazon.co.uk..EU: musicstore.de..

 

Yeah I guess it's different. I checked German Amazon (didn't have in stock), Japanese Amazon & Thomann (wasn't even listed), so I got a dismal picture.

[iococoi]

https://www.amazon.de/Behringer-X-Touch-Mini-Remote-Controller/dp/B012CSKTYY

[thawkins]

I did my market research a couple of weeks ago, and then most places were consistently out of stock (or didn't list the thing). Great to see that it's back now, though. It's still weird that Japanese Amazon doesn't have it, there's usually more than enough gadgets available here.