Apocalypse Thread

[apriorion]

Oops. I meant to post a thing here, but put a tag idea in the body instead. Not used to the new WATMM, obviously. More in a minute...

[apriorion]

Okay, so it occured to me that I can easily derail both the "Brexisn't" and the "Now that Trump is President" threads, but that I didn't recall that there was a thread specifically devoted to thinking about, discussing, weighing the evidence for and against belief in the nearness of the apocalypse. Yet, it's on many of our minds. So, here's a space to do that. Let's go. 

Apologies if I missed some long-buried and dead thread on this topic, btw. 

[ambermonk]

Guess we can delay it by opting for full reliance on renewable energy, vegetarian diets, global nuclear disarmament, etc

I'm rather skeptical of the odds though tbh

[apriorion]

So, here's the thing. I was up late last week chatting with some new acquaintances about this at a local culture hub. Probably sounded like a yet another paranoid guy. Thing is, I just don't care anymore. So, obvious signs of populism and authoritarianism aside (Trump, Bolsanaro, and now Johnson in the U.K.), the environmental signs have been really clear for some time. 

NASA announced a few months ago that they neglected to include in their models the reflection effect (or diminishment thereof) of the polar caps, and how the absence of that white surface will actually absorb more heat. 

Recent evidence of emerging mammoth skeletons in the arctic tundra show that the permafrost is melting at an alarming rate, which will release literally tons more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, as well as ancient microbes, viruses, and so on that none of us are evolutionary equipped to fight off with our immune systems. 

Potable water supplies all around the planet are becoming increasingly dried up, and states within the US and elsewhere around the world have already started fighting over them. It's only going to get much more desperate and worse. 

Temperatures are rising and blah blah blah. By 2040 the polar ice caps will be completely melted when it's not winter. 

Morons keep getting elected by an increasingly hostile and stupid public in various democracies around the world, and those leaders fuel outrage at people with different skin colors or ethnic backgrounds. Nationalism is on the rise all over the place. 

So, what more evidence do we need that things are going to get really horrifyingly bad, likely in our lifetimes. I read a lot about Kosovo, Congo, Iraq, and when there are power vacuums, things begin to resemble the worst sort of hell that I have to work hard to imagine, and I'm generally pretty wary of human nature. 

There. Those are some of my thoughts on this. I recently moved out in the country with plans to prepare for this sort of thing. I've given up caring. I'm coming around to the view lately that it's not worth preparing for a fight. Not because I don't believe it's coming. I think that US is pretty ripe for some really scary shit. I just don't think I care enough to power through it. I used to find such a position wimpy and repulsive in its wimpiness. Now, I guess I've become a wimp, and I just don't care. 

 

If you've been thinking about this stuff at all, I'd be interested to read your thoughts on this. 

[Squee]

Everythin will be fine.

[apriorion]

5 minutes ago, ambergonk said:

Guess we can delay it by opting for full reliance on renewable energy, vegetarian diets, global nuclear disarmament, etc

I'm rather skeptical of the odds though tbh

I actually have a lot more respect for Bill Gates due to his efforts to fund vegetable-based replacements for things like eggs and other animal products. He's motivated by exactly the sorts of arguments that Peter Singer has given for vegetarianism: it's not just out of concern for the welfare of other sentient, non-human animals, but also because of the tremendous impact that livestock farming has on the environment. The evidence for this is well-documented, so I won't bother rehearsing it. Choir and all that. Still, kinda seems like plugging up little holes in a rapidly sinking ship. As you said, the odds just don't strike me as very good, but I'd be curious to see what sort of relevant empirical evidence we could look at to determine the likelihood one way or the other. 

Y'all remember that stupid photo-op thing in Paris a few years ago? That Climate Change Meeting or whatever it was called, where world leaders all got together and "agreed" to not add more greenhouse gases, and to prevent the rise of global temperatures above 2 degrees centigrade, or something like that? It struck me as a big circle-jerk, and quite futile. Meanwhile, South Pacific Island nations were justifiably really upset and worried about even the 2 degree agreement, as their countries are already seeing the coastal effects. And what's happened since then? We can set Trump's refusal to participate off to the side: that's neither here nor there. We've actually reached a world where the atmosphere is beyond the "point of no return" (I think it was 400ppm or something along those lines; it's been a couple years since I read that article) for carbon dioxide content. And, I might be wrong, but hasn't global temperatures already reached that level that the World's Leaders (R) agreed they wouldn't allow? I mean, how much can Bill Gates do to stop this fucking train wreck? Vegetable-based egg substitutes, sure. Great. Omelettes in hell it is. 

11 minutes ago, Squee said:

Everythin will be fine.

Okay. Thanks, Squee. 

On the plus side, it's never too early to start drinking when you take all this into account. 

[apriorion]

It's like a gestalt picture. Viewed one way, hell is all around us, encroaching. But when you squint a little and take a step back, there's a bottle of wine nearby that probably is affordable and makes things tolerable. 

[ambermonk]

We're going in the right direction in some areas, with opting for renewables. There are slightly more electric vehicles on the roads than there were maybe a decade ago. But I wonder if it's too little, too late.

Corrupt old bastard politicians and oil tycoons still have a lot of leverage in the world, and that's why I don't think it'll be a future of sunshine and rainbows. That's one reason anyway.

[YangYing]

life on earth will thrive eons after we're very dead 

[apriorion]

Yeah, I know the Carlin routine, MIXL2. I'm talking about experiencing a hell where people are murdering each other all around us. I don't give too much of a fuck about life continuing on long after we're gone primarily because I won't experience that, nor will that continue any meaningful commitment to the sorts of values that I think are important (knowledge-acquisition, consciousness-expansion, moral evolution, art, etc.). It'll actually all return to the microbes for much, much longer than we'll ever be around, if O'Malley is correct. But fuck that--who cares about a bunch of fucking algae or whatever? And who really cares about future generations? I actually do, assuming that they continue the projects I talked about a second ago. But I think the evidence is pretty clear that most powerful people don't share my commitment. Hence hell is rising all around us. What the fuck are we doing?

6 minutes ago, ambergonk said:

We're going in the right direction in some areas, with opting for renewables. There are slightly more electric vehicles on the roads than there were maybe a decade ago. But I wonder if it's too little, too late.

Corrupt old bastard politicians and oil tycoons still have a lot of leverage in the world, and that's why I don't think it'll be a future of sunshine and rainbows. That's one reason anyway.

Right, I think the most optimistic but grounded assessment is "it won't be a future of sunshine and rainbows". On the other hand, "imminent and horrific hell beyond our complacent comprehension" is a mild way of stating the worst case scenario. 

[ambermonk]

I think we can still make things right if we actually get our collective shit together as a species. Can't say we're necessarily completely fuct, but our current overall direction isn't optimal either. We just have a lot of work ahead of us if we're committed to fixing this shit.

[koolkeyZ865]

Going for renewable energy is merely delaying an inevitable outcome. Yeah, biodegradable six pack rings are better than non-biodegradable six pack rings, but a six pack is still a six pack. We made our beds a long time ago - thousands of years ago with the advent of agriculture. When we decided that our survival and strength in numbers was more important than harmony with the earth and individual autonomy and strength.

[beerwolf]

Lefties always think the world will be ending when the right get in power, and vice versa. 

I have to say though I slightly am more right than left, I cannot vote for a political party that ignores the pressure being put on our planet.

 

[Braintree]

Climate change deniers, and people that think that global warming isn't primarily caused by humans won't believe it until they see it....and in which case, we'll thoroughly be fucked be dead.

So get your water rights while you can. Let your grandchildren know they should move to Canada or something.

[Candiru]

The idea of new plagues and epidemics wiping out the population worries me. A lot. 

[apriorion]

To be clear, I'm no "lefty". But let's not play that game, where we are talking about political affiliations. This thread is about the following: 

• evidence for/against belief in the impending apocalypse
• plans for how to deal with imminent hell, whatever form it might take
• general attitudes about the subject

That's what this thread is about. 

Not about political leanings. 

[YangYing]

@apriorion I think I mostly agree w u, as I see it we're collectively acting as a dumb teenager who drinks too much and won't change their ways until they are in a car crash... so idk move to Iceland?

[Ivan Ooze]

Everythin will be fine.

But what aboot eternal looping cosmic afterlife hell

[Squee]

Just now, Ivan Ooze said:

38 minutes ago, Squee said:

Everythin will be fine.

But what aboot eternal looping cosmic afterlife hell

Fine.

[beerwolf]

I associate the right with ignoring climate change, that's why I mentioned it. And you mentioned Brexit and Trump which are both RW. That's where I made that connection.

 

[apriorion]

Man, this thread is "HOT!" 

I swear, I'm not trying to artificially inflate this thread or my postcount or anything like that. I just have a lot of thoughts about this shit lately. 

Just a general counter-thought. I thought I would share something that I brought up in a recent conversation *against* the belief in the apocalypse. I just don't believe that it actually works. Still, I like to examine all arguments and see where they lead. So, here goes: 

1. In the past, old men have always believed in the coming end times. 
2. In the past, all those men were wrong. 
3. Therefore, when some old man is going on and on about the end times now, he is probably wrong. 

The problem I have with this argument is that there seems to be a relevant disanalogy. We know a lot more about the environment, population is too high, industry has been fucking Mother Earth up the ass real rough, etc. So, even though I think this argument is inductively strong, at least at first glance, I'm not convinced by it. 

[koolkeyZ865]

It's clear that over 90% of the world's population is simply not fit to survive an apocalyptic situation. That 90% most likely includes all of us. Who will be there to bury the dead?

The best we can do is prepare - but not through buying canned food and $100 alpha-male survival dick pills™. But rather, learn as much as we can about our environments. Studying permaculture, herb lore, craftsmanship, and electrical engineering certainly wouldn't hurt..

[apriorion]

3 minutes ago, beer badger said:

I associate the right with ignoring climate change, that's why I mentioned it. And you mentioned Brexit and Trump which are both RW. That's where I made that connection.

 

Fair enough. I didn't mean to sound hostile, either. I just started to get worried that if we didn't agree to ground rules right at the outset, this would become yet another political topic. It's not meant to be one, although you're right: those factors (let's not forget Bolsonaro) do make it seem like I was concerned with politics. We can strike my comment about authoritarianism from the record, if you wish. 

[sheatheman]

Is this just another “right wing radicalism is the cause of all the worlds problems” thread?

seems like you could just get msnbc rss for that

[apriorion]

2 minutes ago, The Magic Autist said:

It's clear that over 90% of the world's population is simply not fit to survive an apocalyptic situation. That 90% most likely includes all of us. Who will be there to bury the dead?

The best we can do is prepare - but not through buying canned food and $100 alpha-male survival dick pills™. But rather, learn as much as we can about our environments, studying permaculture, herb lore, craftsmanship, and electrical engineering certainly wouldn't hurt..

Yeah, that's what I meant when I said I started to make efforts in the direction of preparation. I guess I'm just despairing a lot more lately. What you're talking about (finding like-minded, hard working friends to start an independent commune might be another real direction, too) seems more realistic than most survivalist shit I've seen out there. But I mean it's like Lord of the Flies every fucking place I go, and I'm always Piggy. I swear. And so's everybody, really. It's just a matter of really dumb and cruel luck who is the target of the angry mob from one moment to another, and those are the fucking people who will come with the machetes to take some random dudes limbs when the plumbing doesn't work or something equally stupid. 

 

I used to idealize the tough-nut, Sarah Connor (circa T2; I've not bothered with any of the other sequels) action hero who fights on for Humanity's sake. But then you read the news through your twenties and thirties, study a little history of war, think a lot about human nature, and I don't know: if you're like me, you despair. At least from time to time. It's just so absurd, and I used to relish the absurdity. But then again, absurdity with torture is not nearly as fun as mindlessly pushing a dumbass boulder. Sisyphus had it so much better than Prometheus, I guess.