Americans & Indians

[azatoth]

With multi-million casinos being built and ran by local native Americans, how much of that wealth finds its way back into the community? Or does it all stay among a wealthy few, who say all the right things about upholding their culture and heritage, but do very little substantial good. Considering there seems to be a big problem with substance abuse and poverty on the reservations it doesn't look like much of money collected from these casinos find a way to help the community.

 

As a student of religion, I would find it interesting to see how the various native American beliefs and traditions are used and interpreted in the context of these big casino organizations to give an "authentic" native American experience to visitors and tourists.

[luke viia]

Hey guys, let's think about this one.

 

Say you find out for a fact that your ancestors (like 100-200 years ago) got to where you are now by totally exploiting a certain family. In a really bad way. Now you are well off, and they've been at almost starvation level for a few generations now.

 

Would you try to help them out in some way or would you say it was your ancestor's fault, not yours? Would you even dare contacting them (let's say the were not aware of why something destroyed their social standard).

 

Scary, right?

 

Yeah, scary. I would consult my (living) extended family and see what they had to say on the matter. It would feel strange and impossible to attempt to single-handedly correct something like that... maybe if I was personally rich...

[Guest mafted]

You guys did lose a war - two of them in fact - the Korean War and the Vietnamese War. :)

 

Not so sure about Vietnam.. the last 'stage' of the war was the North agreeing to peace talks with the South after we bombed the shit out of Hanoi.

[Guest disparaissant]

With multi-million casinos being built and ran by local native Americans, how much of that wealth finds its way back into the community? Or does it all stay among a wealthy few, who say all the right things about upholding their culture and heritage, but do very little substantial good. Considering there seems to be a big problem with substance abuse and poverty on the reservations it doesn't look like much of money collected from these casinos find a way to help the community.

 

As a student of religion, I would find it interesting to see how the various native American beliefs and traditions are used and interpreted in the context of these big casino organizations to give an "authentic" native American experience to visitors and tourists.

uhm i don't know how it is for all tribes but i have two friends who receive a nice chunk of change from their tribal leaders just for being of that tribe. one of them is ho-chunk (they have a MASSIVE casino in milwaukee) and he gets enough that he doesn't even have to work.

 

the shitty reservations i've seen are the ones that don't have any source of income.

[baph]

smetty - don't misunderstand me - there are plenty of other nations which have done really really fucked up things. I just find baph's response a really puerile attempt at deflecting blame.

 

Except it's neither puerile nor blame-deflecting. (And forced sterilization is not minor)

Indigenous populations are fucked over by everyone. I'm making that point because the tone of the original post in this thread is fucking puerile and self-congratulatory. Or at least reads that way.

 

Notice that I didn't include the forced sterilization in my post?

It is blame-deflecting - "oh we can't talk about american fuck-ups without acknowledging that other countries have fucked up as well" No one is denying that indigenous populations are fucked over all over the place, this thread was about american personal reactions and experiences with the indigenous population, but you chose to get all pissy and treat it like a personal insult.

 

If you'd actually read any of my posts in this thread rather than latching on to me getting pissy at the tone of the original post, you'd see I responded with an attempt to actually discuss the causation of the native american plight, suggested some reading material, tried to bring up some reasons why that situation was "different" from the treatment of other indigenous populations, and acknowledged that I feel guilty as fuck about the whole thing despite not having much opportunity to actually interact with the indigenous population or the sad shattered ghost of that population.

 

Congrats on leaving the word sterilization out of your post so that you could characterize the Sami situation as minor. If you actually want to discuss what makes the native american situation unique, it helps to be able to understand it in and out of the context of the atrocities committed against indigenous populations world-wide.

 

Whatever you have against me, can you drop it already and quit bringing it up? I've already responded directly to the OP on why I found the tone of the first post insulting, and I don't have any gripes with chimera.

[Guest Iain C]

The Australians did some really messed up things to their indigenous population too. Can we rag on them for a bit? Bloody Australians.

[baph]

With multi-million casinos being built and ran by local native Americans, how much of that wealth finds its way back into the community? Or does it all stay among a wealthy few, who say all the right things about upholding their culture and heritage, but do very little substantial good. Considering there seems to be a big problem with substance abuse and poverty on the reservations it doesn't look like much of money collected from these casinos find a way to help the community.

 

As a student of religion, I would find it interesting to see how the various native American beliefs and traditions are used and interpreted in the context of these big casino organizations to give an "authentic" native American experience to visitors and tourists.

uhm i don't know how it is for all tribes but i have two friends who receive a nice chunk of change from their tribal leaders just for being of that tribe. one of them is ho-chunk (they have a MASSIVE casino in milwaukee) and he gets enough that he doesn't even have to work.

 

the shitty reservations i've seen are the ones that don't have any source of income.

 

Yeah, I think this is true. My first job out of law school was boring finance stuff, but I actually interacted a lot with tribal representatives who were trying to fund Casinos. But it's like, "West River Tribe of Idunno Indians" who end up running the Casino-- in other words, the Casino income has a pretty localized effect (and it is big business; these little branch tribes essentially act like a corporation). There are massive--MASSIVE--reservation areas plotted down in the middle of nowhere (read: the fucking desert/out of sight out of mind) where there is no source of income, no connection to pre-White tribal practices and production, no resources, and basically nothing to do but meth and be completely disenfranchised.

[chenGOD]

Most Americans I know are quite well aware of the terrible position that Natives have been put in.

 

I find this to be true as well, but apparently we're not discussing it enough in the exported Popular Culture for the Swedes to become informed of, and fully digest, our guilt, to better compare it to their own perfectly homogenous zero-conflict-ever cultural consciousness.

 

How are all the Sami these days, anyway?

 

 

 

 

 

If you'd actually read any of my posts in this thread rather than latching on to me getting pissy at the tone of the original post, you'd see I responded with an attempt to actually discuss the causation of the native american plight, suggested some reading material, tried to bring up some reasons why that situation was "different" from the treatment of other indigenous populations, and acknowledged that I feel guilty as fuck about the whole thing despite not having much opportunity to actually interact with the indigenous population or the sad shattered ghost of that population.

Yes I can see exactly how you engaged in that, and didn't automatically get your hackles up.

I don't have anything against you personally, how could I, I don't know you.

 

My point is: you got all pissed off, and then when you got called on that and realized you'd jumped to conclusions on chimera's original thread you made an excellent contribution to the thread.

 

 

 

You guys did lose a war - two of them in fact - the Korean War and the Vietnamese War. :)

 

Not so sure about Vietnam.. the last 'stage' of the war was the North agreeing to peace talks with the South after we bombed the shit out of Hanoi.

Ummm the US might not have lost any battles militarily, but definitely lost the war in terms of the result - the north unified the country under a communist regime.

[Boxus]

in the area around palm springs, california, the native american population is generally pretty well off and respected. the morongo reservation is treated as a sovereign nation but i don't know the politics surrounding that, i'm sure there's bullshit involved somewhere.

[TiffanyHalderman]

[SR4]

Most Americans I know are quite well aware of the terrible position that Natives have been put in.

 

I find this to be true as well, but apparently we're not discussing it enough in the exported Popular Culture for the Swedes to become informed of, and fully digest, our guilt, to better compare it to their own perfectly homogenous zero-conflict-ever cultural consciousness.

 

How are all the Sami these days, anyway?

 

 

 

 

 

If you'd actually read any of my posts in this thread rather than latching on to me getting pissy at the tone of the original post, you'd see I responded with an attempt to actually discuss the causation of the native american plight, suggested some reading material, tried to bring up some reasons why that situation was "different" from the treatment of other indigenous populations, and acknowledged that I feel guilty as fuck about the whole thing despite not having much opportunity to actually interact with the indigenous population or the sad shattered ghost of that population.

Yes I can see exactly how you engaged in that, and didn't automatically get your hackles up.

I don't have anything against you personally, how could I, I don't know you.

 

My point is: you got all pissed off, and then when you got called on that and realized you'd jumped to conclusions on chimera's original thread you made an excellent contribution to the thread.

 

 

 

You guys did lose a war - two of them in fact - the Korean War and the Vietnamese War. :)

 

Not so sure about Vietnam.. the last 'stage' of the war was the North agreeing to peace talks with the South after we bombed the shit out of Hanoi.

Ummm the US might not have lost any battles militarily, but definitely lost the war in terms of the result - the north unified the country under a communist regime.

 

 

isnt the Korean War up to interpretation though? I mean, couldn't one claim that it was initially a defensive expedition on the part of the US that ended up overextending its bounds and getting thrown back by the Chinese?

 

as in, South Korea was not absorbed into DPRK, therefore=win? or at least draw?

 

the Vietnam War we definitely lost, at least strategically. no arguments there.

[chenGOD]

They went in, got their ass kicked all the way down to the Pusan Perimeter by the North Korean forces, finally MacArthur brought in the 1st Marine Division at the Incheon landing, then yes they fought their way back up to the Yalu, where they again got their asses handed to them back down to the 38th parallel: So in a way you're right - the first part of the war, the war for the South - the "good guys" won. The second part, where they MacArthur tries to take on the evil commies - was a pretty big loss - even with American air superiority.

I guess I'd call it a loss because of the aims of the second part, but yeah maybe a draw is fairer (especially considering the bloody thing is still technically ongoing).

[joshuatxuk]

I don't have any good stories or connections, just some antedotes about reservations and casino resorts in New Mexico, like once where a legit (so it seemed) canoe rental shop employee told me that there were plenty of canoes but "no oars. we had some yesterday but this man took them. he never came back." That was that.

 

Also, I can add that Native American culture and history was a huge part of elementary school, then less and less from then on. No idea if schools are like that now. I remember in 3rd grade spending at least 6 weeks talking about specific tribes, regional art and culture, even making detailed dioramas of Native American shelter types.

 

Though I think it's a fair statement earlier that most Americans are aware of the brutality of their history, their "visibility" beyond that of pop culture references is minimal to most, since reservations are only in specific areas or more remote parts of the Western US. I've heard the same about the Aboriginal People in Australia.

[Guest hahathhat]

i think the culture is essentially dead. it's sad to hear that they're trailer parks in places (i've never seen that myself) as it boils down to being a people caught between worlds.

[marf]

There just isn't enough guilt these days

[joshuatxuk]

i think the culture is essentially dead. it's sad to hear that they're trailer parks in places (i've never seen that myself) as it boils down to being a people caught between worlds.

 

I agree, but perhaps you mean their orginal "lifestyle" is dead and gone, and specific tribes did literally die out. But I dunno, tribes still engage in traditions, pow wows especially. Their culture's been preserved in museums and academia just as much as it has been re-apprioated and exploited.

[SR4]

one thing i remember pissing me off is when drug legislation comes into conflict with tribal ceremony. there was a court case a decade or so ago where a shaman faced jail time for distribution of hallucinogens....not making this shit up.

 

 

 

FOR FUCKS SAKE IT GROWS IN THE FUCKING GROUND PEOPLE

[acidphakist]

i think the culture is essentially dead. it's sad to hear that they're trailer parks in places (i've never seen that myself) as it boils down to being a people caught between worlds.

 

I agree, but perhaps you mean their orginal "lifestyle" is dead and gone, and specific tribes did literally die out. But I dunno, tribes still engage in traditions, pow wows especially. Their culture's been preserved in museums and academia just as much as it has been re-apprioated and exploited.

 

 

Cultures evolve. Deal with it.

[TiffanyHalderman]

 

deal with it

[Guest disparaissant]

 

deal with it

slowclap dot gif

 

saying "cultures evolve" in re: native american culture is a bit like saying "people change" in re: someone you lock in a dark basement and tortured for 20 years.

[acidphakist]

 

deal with it

slowclap dot gif

 

saying "cultures evolve" in re: native american culture is a bit like saying "people change" in re: someone you lock in a dark basement and tortured for 20 years.

 

 

Not really. Do you think they'd still be riding around hunting Buffalo in the wild wearing loin clothes if we hadn't come and forced them off the land? I certainly don't...

 

 

deal with it

 

 

This is no different than Godwinning someone during a debate. Way to go.

[Guest disparaissant]

They might be, they might not be. But that doesn't change the fact that saying "culture evolves. deal with it." in regards to a culture that was not allowed to evolve is a massively idiotic, insensitive, and downright fucktarded thing to say.

[TiffanyHalderman]

That picture is from the battle of wounded knee. culture: evolved

[acidphakist]

They might be, they might not be. But that doesn't change the fact that saying "culture evolves. deal with it." in regards to a culture that was not allowed to evolve is a massively idiotic, insensitive, and downright fucktarded thing to say.

 

This is the jungle, darling. Survival of the fittest. I don't shed tears for the prey freshly caught by the predator, nor do I find it "idiotic, insensitive, and downright fucktarded" to assert that cultures evolve. Some may do so according to nature. Some others may do so through force exerted by a stronger culture.

 

You are clearly ragging if you think your opinion on my standpoint is FACT.

[baph]

They might be, they might not be. But that doesn't change the fact that saying "culture evolves. deal with it." in regards to a culture that was not allowed to evolve is a massively idiotic, insensitive, and downright fucktarded thing to say.

 

This is the jungle, darling.

 

ok, thanks Axl