the Artist engages in an argument about the quality of their own music

[awepittance]

I'm curious how this makes people on the board feel.

 

Surely to some it must send a 'chilling effect' wherein if you are an up and coming musician you might actually be afraid to speak badly about a musician who is more famous than you are.

 

Has anybody experienced any strange vibes from this happening? *Have you ever voiced a criticism of an artist and had that artist come in and knock the dick out of your mouth?

 

previous examples:

 

http://forum.watmm.com/topic/65132-tycho-visuals/page__view__findpost__p__1558976

http://forum.watmm.com/topic/65697-com-truise-galactic-melt/page__view__findpost__p__1574601

[goDel]

what kind of a dick would assume his criticism to be interesting to some artist? especially when it's criticism of the kind: "I don't like your current output. please go back to releasing stuff like the years old album".

If i don't like his work he/she gets the respect for putting it out there. If he wants criticism he/she can get it. For whatever reason.

[sneaksta303]

HARKY

 

 

I don't talk too much shit anymore. Can't be bothered. If I don't like it, 90% of the time I don't care enough to say anything period. Sometimes I restrain myself though, because I don't want to shoot myself in the foot, real talk. There is one american electronic musician that posts here that i want to tear to shreds for a few reasons, but i'm not going to call him out for being an utter d bag because i dont want to burn any bridges.

[awepittance]

i'm not sure what you mean, if its being a 'dick' to expect an artist to come in and care about the criticisms you write on an internet message board, what does that make the artists who actually respond to it?

[sneaksta303]

THe artists that take the bait and write long winded retorts like that tycho post.... It's pathetic. There. If not pathetic, then just LAME.

[awepittance]

it's like Washington politicians. They spend a great deal of their lives being a 'blank slate' not taking strong opinions on one side or the other, and especially not breaking the golden rule of insulting someone more powerful than you. This is how to make a career in politics

 

THe artists that take the bait and write long winded retorts like that tycho post.... It's pathetic. There. If not pathetic, then just LAME.

 

how do you feel about the 'com truise approach' ? I though it was well done

 

 

edit: so far one watmm member in this thread has admitted to 'holding back' their true feelings in order to not burn bridges which is understandable, im just wondering what percentage of people do this over the internet in general and especially here on this forum.

[sneaksta303]

It's disheartening really, as my musical "career" is just getting going, and I am an opinionated fucker. I am more likely to slag off someone's character than their music, and it's probably going to get me blackballed eventually.

 

 

how do you feel about the 'com truise approach' ? I though it was well done

 

 

yeah, much more down to earth, and shit, sounds like someone i could hang out with. That being said, and since im feeling honest today, his music doesn't get me off.

[awepittance]

so the inverse to that is essentially having to 'kid glove' or keep quiet on things you perceive as horrible

 

 

i feel like over time the internet is only going to make this worse in this regard for everyone. This is kind of a thought experiment and i'm curious if it's effected anyone on watmm on a deep or even just surface level.

[sneaksta303]

What's worse to me, is when a peer is falling off, quality wise, but they're so thin skinned that a simple crit is enough to send them into hysterics and have them turn against me, even though I was legitimately trying to help. THere are a couple people HERE that really need a talking to, but I don't think the drama is worth it. PEople are fickle. Once words start flying, they pick sides, and quite frankly, I don't have enough people on "my side" to start any wars, even with the best of intentions. ALso, I'm not even talking about shaming them on a board or being mean. I'm talking PM's.

 

Politics. Exactly.

[oscillik]

with respect to my comment in the Com Truise thread, i wasn't really criticising, more just giving my personal (but obviously wrong) opinion on the sound.

 

as i explained, i didn't give a fuck either way - fact remains that i like his music.

 

what i was more irked by was that he reponds pretty much immediately to comments made here (which most of the time a lot of comments made here can be quite glib and sometimes not even serious), yet i'd asked on more than one occasion via Twitter about any info on a UK release for his vinyl, and was pretty much blanked. however, i do see many many many retweets of people praising Com Truise.

 

as far as the broader topic of being able to voice any kind of criticism or praise on an internet forum, as long as there's nothing vindictive or whatever, i think it's just fine.

[goDel]

i'm not sure what you mean, if its being a 'dick' to expect an artist to come in and care about the criticisms you write on an internet message board, what does that make the artists who actually respond to it?

what i meant with being a 'dick' is expecting your opinion to actually be relevant to said artist. sure, an artist likes to be appreciated. but, for example, giving criticism on the decisions an artist has made, is quite ridiculous. you either like his work or you don't. by giving criticism on someones - apparent- decision-making, you assume to know/understand that process. as some sort of authority of some artists producing process. f$ck dat. an artist should never ever respond to those kind of criticisms. because these are usually made by people he haven't got an idea where their ideas end and the reality of the artist starts.

[awepittance]

as long as there's nothing vindictive or whatever, i think it's just fine.

 

i agree, but what i find over time there seems to be less differentiating between vindictive/spiteful criticisms and just criticisms. If someone is feeling thin skinned enough on that particular day the word 'Hater' is bound to be thrown out

[sneaksta303]

I'm pretty sure Machinedrum also recently posted here under an alias after being upset with someone's comment.

[Guest AcrossCanyons]

I don't see any arguments in the Com Truise thread... am I missing something?

[oscillik]

as long as there's nothing vindictive or whatever, i think it's just fine.

 

i agree, but what i find over time there seems to be less differentiating between vindictive/spiteful criticisms and just criticisms. If someone is feeling thin skinned enough on that particular day the word 'Hater' is bound to be thrown out

exactly, and what i would suggest to any artists that make music is that if you're feeling particularly vulnerable, it's probably best to stay away from the internet until you can take it in your stride.

 

perfect example - the Com Truise comments. who really gives a fuck whether it's hardware or software? or indeed whether it's analogue or digital? the comments made there only really showed that one rather pertinent person obviously does care (maybe i'm reading it wrong).

[awepittance]

I don't see any arguments in the Com Truise thread... am I missing something?

 

arguments could be too strong of a word, let's say he responded to criticisms he read about himself on a message board that he did not post on until said event

[Guest rex sole]

THe artists that take the bait and write long winded retorts like that tycho post.... It's pathetic. There. If not pathetic, then just LAME.

 

Pathetic? I think this is unfair. I think that the music a person writes is a very personal thing, an extension of themselves, and when presented publicly it absolutely leaves you vulnerable in a way that you might not be prepared for (especially with the kind of language used on the internet in general). If I were in a similar situation I would be compelled to at least try and weigh in on the matter from my own perspective, folly or not!

 

It's easy to say "be above this!" but I'm certain that if you don't maintain a strong message board/internet presence anyway and can deal with that kind of thing, it would be a very difficult thing to do in reality.

[awepittance]

I'd love for Com Truise or Tycho to actually weigh in on this thread, if you guys are reading please post something

[o00o]

Artists do care about things being said in this forum. most of them do not get directly involved as calling people out but they do care as you could see with venetian snares not willing to have a subforum here. I also know of several musicians hating watmm for their "warp is best everything else will never be as close" attitude. even more when they cross the sound of autechre, aphex, boc etc.

[oscillik]

it certainly is a very difficult stance to be in, and i'm sure it's the reason why any "big" players usually stick to staying away from such discussions.

 

how can an artist comment on such a thing without coming out looking bad, regardless of what tact they choose?

 

i agree with you Awepittance, that is was a bit weird for Com Truise to only really start posting when some facts needed to be set straight. but maybe he doesn't want to get sucked into all of this. and to be honest, i don't blame him. there is definitely something inherently nerdy about this place...can't quite put my finger on why though...

[sneaksta303]

THe artists that take the bait and write long winded retorts like that tycho post.... It's pathetic. There. If not pathetic, then just LAME.

 

Pathetic? I think this is unfair. I think that the music a person writes is a very personal thing, an extension of themselves, and when presented publicly it absolutely leaves you vulnerable in a way that you might not be prepared for (especially with the kind of language used on the internet in general). If I were in a similar situation I would be compelled to at least try and weigh in on the matter from my own perspective, folly or not!

 

It's easy to say "be above this!" but I'm certain that if you don't maintain a strong message board/internet presence anyway and can deal with that kind of thing, it would be a very difficult thing to do in reality.

 

To me, it reads "insecure". Tycho is making money off this shit. A few wattmers talking shit isn't going to change that. So then what message is he sending other than he loves his work? That shouldn't have to be said out loud.

[oscillik]

Artists do care about things being said in this forum.

of course they care, it's a rather vocal portion of their fan base.

 

it's always difficult to hear that someone's not digging your music, especially moreso if it's a general consensus opinion.

 

autechre, for example, get a lot of flak. and i really do hope that Rob and Sean understand their own music enough to know that it usually takes the listeners a while to fully appreciate the music (the whole "you can't understand it until you've gotten the last one" rule). but yeah, xltronic and watmm dish out enough negative comments...i remember the shitstorm that came out when Untilted was released. 6 years on, is Untilted as bad as people were making it out to be? course it fucking isn't.

 

anyways, i'm veering off here.

 

am i even contributing?

[QBLA]

HARKY

 

 

I don't talk too much shit anymore. Can't be bothered. If I don't like it, 90% of the time I don't care enough to say anything period. Sometimes I restrain myself though, because I don't want to shoot myself in the foot, real talk. There is one american electronic musician that posts here that i want to tear to shreds for a few reasons, but i'm not going to call him out for being an utter d bag because i dont want to burn any bridges.

 

This is exaclty how I feel. I always bite my tounge. But it's not only over the quality of music.

 

 

as long as there's nothing vindictive or whatever, i think it's just fine.

 

i agree, but what i find over time there seems to be less differentiating between vindictive/spiteful criticisms and just criticisms. If someone is feeling thin skinned enough on that particular day the word 'Hater' is bound to be thrown out

exactly, and what i would suggest to any artists that make music is that if you're feeling particularly vulnerable, it's probably best to stay away from the internet until you can take it in your stride.

 

perfect example - the Com Truise comments. who really gives a fuck whether it's hardware or software? or indeed whether it's analogue or digital? the comments made there only really showed that one rather pertinent person obviously does care (maybe i'm reading it wrong).

 

I notice that lots of people here care about how this music is made. Some even go as far as saying "I don't use Drum Loops, Just Hits" as if they are above using loops. It doesn't make a difference to me how a track is made, what loops and samples are used. If it sounds good, I'll listen.

[Guest rex sole]

To me, it reads "insecure". Tycho is making money off this shit. A few wattmers talking shit isn't going to change that. So then what message is he sending other than he loves his work? That shouldn't have to be said out loud.

 

Earning money doesn't suddenly make you impervious to having your feelings hurt! Aww diddums, yes I know it sounds pathetic but for anyone sharing their art, the most of the time they just want share what makes them happy with other people. If you suddenly wander across a cache of strong negative opinions about your work, it's going to offend you, especially from people you don't know. I know I would feel bad if I was making strangers hate me and and my creative output!

 

But as I type all this I realise that I might be giving the impression that I think everyone should be sycophants and Only Say Something If You've Got Something Nice To Say. What I actually think is that when you open yourself up publicly, you are also inviting yourself to be criticized strongly. Everyone has the right to tell you your shit stinks. But I also think that there's nothing wrong with sticking your head above the parapets to address such criticism (especially as on the internets it can end up being wildly inaccurate, cause you know what them message boards are like) and it shouldn't be seen as a Bad Thing.

 

I guess we are coming out of an age where people making creative content were totally disconnected from the consumers at large, and neither party are really prepared for being directly able to communicate with each other. See Twitter for a billion examples of this!

[taphead]

All tycho was doing was just having an opinion on whether or not he rips off BoC, just like anyone else. He just had a really detailed argument, because he knew the subject pretty well. I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

Now I suppose that can make corners of the internet feel like more of a public sphere, as opposed to the sort of place where you can say the things you wouldn't say to someones face... is that bad?