wtf is a person supposed to actually do about israel murdering hundreds of innocent civilians.

[chenGOD]

Yeah, I kinda figured. Mulling is the natural state of the UN. And there's always talk about the UN doing something. I'm hoping the mulling stops and the acting actually starts. And not in a watered down - compromised to death - way. The lack of leadership on both the Israeli and the Palestinian side should be overcompensated to have some positive effect.

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2014/08/07/europe_proposes_un_mission_for_gaza

 

Hopefully they act quickly, as you say. Really, the only opposition should come from Russia (in the UN SC). That is not so much on the basis of them being staunch supporters of Israel (lol I made a funny), rather in terms of justifying intervention in another nations territorial affairs.

China would (object), but they need some favours right now as they push for the internationalization of the RMB.

 

Anyhow yes, hopefully action does occur quickly.

[goDel]

Interesting article!

 

*crosses fingers*

 

 

....and those damned Ruskies

[jlobkob]

come on eugene, "wtf is zionistic" ? it's obviously this should have been "zionist"; that was just a false friend carried over from german.

i would appreciate it if you actually would answer in relation to the contents of posts you reply to. but let's forget that, anyway we would not find a conclusion.

 

ok, according to numbers of the UNO (as of august the 4th), we have:

 

1814 Palestinian victims

72% of these were civilians

 

"In order to guarantee our interests versus the other side's demands, we must avoid the artificial, wrong and dangerous distinction between the Hamas people, who are "the bad guys," and Gaza's residents, which are allegedly "the good guys." We are dealing with an enemy state, not with a terror organization which is seemingly operating from within an innocent civilian population."

 

-Major-General (res.) Giora Eiland, former head of Israel's National Security Council

 

 

[eugene]

the premise of your inquiry was retarded as if there is something zionis(tic) in idf's conduct, as if zionism implies something more sinister than jewish self determination and can be used as a pejorative adjective. i can't really be arsed to seek out your original post for the details tbh.

 

regarding the numbers: the numbers from gaza about casualties are filtered through hamas and are naturally inaccurate as it is purposelessly doesn't differentiate between civilians and combatants for propaganda purposes. moreover i don't see how even neutral agencies stationed in the hospitals/morgues would differentiate between civies and combatants without hamas' involvement. as i believe none of them wear "i <3 militant jihad" t-shirts and arrive in the hospitals/morgues with military equipment. judging from previous conflicts (not perfect but better than relying on hamas propaganda) in gaza the civ/combatant casualty ratio is about 50/50, which afaik is better than military engagements in kosovo and the battle of fallujah as i already mentioned.

 

regarding the quote i believe you're trying to establish it as part of a guiding principle for the "disproportionate response and high civilian casualty™", but it works only if you already believe that israel purposely kills civilians en masse. if you drop this presumption the quote doesn't necessarily lead to some operative guidelines of maximizing civillian casualties but serves only as a cautionary realization (though i don't really know the context and neither do you). benny gantz for example stressed numerous times (on israeli tv so i can't get a link) that it is imperative not to harm civillians, and he's a a commander in chief, so now you're gonna argue that his word is less significant than eiland's ?

[kaini]

the premise of your inquiry was retarded as if there is something zionis(tic) in idf's conduct, as if zionism implies something more sinister than jewish self determination and can be used as a pejorative adjective. i can't really be arsed to seek out your original post for the details tbh.

 

regarding the numbers: the numbers from gaza about casualties are filtered through hamas and are naturally inaccurate as it is purposelessly doesn't differentiate between civilians and combatants for propaganda purposes. moreover i don't see how even neutral agencies stationed in the hospitals/morgues would differentiate between civies and combatants without hamas' involvement. as i believe none of them wear "i <3 militant jihad" t-shirts and arrive in the hospitals/morgues with military equipment. judging from previous conflicts (not perfect but better than relying on hamas propaganda) in gaza the civ/combatant casualty ratio is about 50/50, which afaik is better than military engagements in kosovo and the battle of fallujah as i already mentioned.

 

regarding the quote i believe you're trying to establish it as part of a guiding principle for the "disproportionate response and high civilian casualty™", but it works only if you already believe that israel purposely kills civilians en masse. if you drop this presumption the quote doesn't necessarily lead to some operative guidelines of maximizing civillian casualties but serves only as a cautionary realization (though i don't really know the context and neither do you). benny gantz for example stressed numerous times (on israeli tv so i can't get a link) that it is imperative not to harm civillians, and he's a a commander in chief, so now you're gonna argue that his word is less significant than eiland's ?

you are so full of shit that you're actually giving me a nosebleed.

 

your country is murdering people and committing atrocities that history will remember as atrocities on a par with what happened in bosnia.

[eugene]

if you don't want to actually address my points instead of spewing this childish and bombastic rhetoric then i think you better fuck off.

[LimpyLoo]

Eugene, you are about the only person on this forum who isn't even slightly critical of his own government's aggression. You seem to have complete confidence that what's happening is totally fine.

 

And that is suspicious and creepy.

[eugene]

im so fucking irritated by those random ignorant twats who pop out of nowhere and think they have something meaningful and revelatory to offer with those banal and idiotic accusations of the sort "murder/genocide/atrocity/just like nazis"

[eugene]

Eugene, you are about the only person on this forum who isn't even slightly critical of his own government's aggression. You seem to have complete confidence that what's happening is totally fine.

 

And that is suspicious and creepy.

i'm simply offering counterarguments and trying to dispel what i see as utter ignorance, i don't see the point in actually criticizing israel before people who absolutely don't matter and have no effect on israeli policy, i save this for arguments with actual israelis.

[LimpyLoo]

 

Eugene, you are about the only person on this forum who isn't even slightly critical of his own government's aggression. You seem to have complete confidence that what's happening is totally fine.

 

And that is suspicious and creepy.

i'm simply offering counterarguments and trying to dispel what i see as utter ignorance, i don't see the point in actually criticizing israel before people who absolutely don't matter and have no effect on israeli policy, i save this for arguments with actual israelis.

 

 

How do you feel about the Israelis who cheer about the bombings?

[eugene]

bombings of what ?

[LimpyLoo]

stuff like this

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5clNNBJ2hU

[Lane Visitor]

Eugene, you are about the only person on this forum who isn't even slightly critical of his own government's aggression. You seem to have complete confidence that what's happening is totally fine.

 

And that is suspicious and creepy.

I feel more like its more accurate to say that eugene is one of the few on this thread that's not overtly biased against the israeli govt, as many ppl in here are coming at the situation already with pre loaded notions that the idf is blood thirsty. With that line of thought, intelligent debate is impossible. Forcing Eugene to try to prove that his government is not some maniacal ruthless racist evil regime and that its intentions are in fact good is setting him up for an impossible pursuit. I kinda feel like many ppl in here will never give the israeli government the benefit of the doubt in ANY situation, and to be skeptical to such an extent, rather than the typical healthy question-your-government bells n whistles method is off the beaten path of intellectual debate. In other words, if you guys already believe that israeli govt is permanently inheritantly and consistently evil , than wth is the point of this thread? Discourse is what politics and conflicts are about.

[eugene]

stuff like this

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5clNNBJ2hU

well i obviously knew you were gonna post that (and that's actually a big issue), but what do you think they cheer for ?

[sheatheman]

Israel is the Holocaust's happy ending, but most Europeans here could not care less.

 

You look about as ridiculous to me as I would to you if I wanted to send black people back to Africa.

[LimpyLoo]

 

Eugene, you are about the only person on this forum who isn't even slightly critical of his own government's aggression. You seem to have complete confidence that what's happening is totally fine.

 

And that is suspicious and creepy.

I feel more like its more accurate to say that eugene is one of the few on this thread that's not overtly biased against the israeli govt, as many ppl in here are coming at the situation already with pre loaded notions that the idf is blood thirsty. With that line of thought, intelligent debate is impossible. Forcing Eugene to try to prove that his government is not some maniacal ruthless racist evil regime and that its intentions are in fact good is setting him up for an impossible pursuit. I kinda feel like many ppl in here will never give the israeli government the benefit of the doubt in ANY situation, and to be skeptical to such an extent, rather than the typical healthy question-your-government bells n whistles method is off the beaten path of intellectual debate. In other words, if you guys already believe that israeli govt is permanently inheritantly and consistently evil , than wth is the point of this thread? Discourse is what politics and conflicts are about.

 

 

I think Israel and Hamas are both way out of line, but Israel seems content to just rack up the body count above and beyond the pretense of defending itself.

[LimpyLoo]

 

stuff like this

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5clNNBJ2hU

well i obviously knew you were gonna post that (and that's actually a big issue), but what do you think they cheer for ?

 

 

Well they cheered precisely as the rocket landed. If you know something I don't, please do tell.

[sheatheman]

Or is it really because you are too terrified to speak against Hamas?

 

http://youtu.be/R72pAmy1PE4

[eugene]

 

 

stuff like this

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5clNNBJ2hU

well i obviously knew you were gonna post that (and that's actually a big issue), but what do you think they cheer for ?

 

Well they cheered precisely as the rocket landed. If you know something I don't, please do tell.

 

of course, but you're obviously implying (and that journalist that called them scum as well ) that they cheer for wanton destruction of gaza and not strikes against hamas terrorists who had made their life miserable (they're from sderot, the town that has been hit the hardest over the years).

[LimpyLoo]

Or is it really because you are too terrified to speak against Hamas?

 

http://youtu.be/R72pAmy1PE4

 

Are you talking to me?

[sheatheman]

No I'm just yelling.

[Lane Visitor]

Also i think, on a wider general topic, that ppl love to blast their own western governments.. It's become an easy-access past time for the bored, lonely and apathetic. What about for once, once, actually taking the stance, and im talking about with anything, of:

 

"Gee, thats gotta be one hard goddamn job to run a nation?"

 

Nope, its always FUUUUCK the government doood like its a permanent high school stoner circle jerk rage against the machine party.

 

But back to the topic, and kinda related, why the flying fuuck would benjamin netanyahu literally want to "murder" innocent helpless people? Even just from a logical standpoint, thats a completely utterly ridiculous theory. Why would the idf want to give themselves a bad name in their already bad pr standpoint israel has from the intl community, and actually go around just carelessly pillaging and shooting off ppl at random? Wtf dude? Maybe if they were influenced by something other than their desire to destroy terror infrastructure, but until someone can prove to me in a non conspiracy theory fashion that the idf / netanyahu / knesset has an ORGANIZED MISSION / INTENT to kill innocent ppl (like their neighbors leaders actually factually do), and im not talking about one-off wackos or fringe party members serving on the knesset (we have those in the states too) then the discussion of israel "murdering" is purely absurd and void. Civilian casualties happens in nearly every war. It's not called murder. Its called war.

[kaini]

if you don't want to actually address my points instead of spewing this childish and bombastic rhetoric then i think you better fuck off.

i'll debate with you in a rational manner when your "defense forces" stops killing children. deal?

[kaini]

I feel more like its more accurate to say that eugene is one of the few on this thread that's not overtly biased against the israeli govt, as many ppl in here are coming at the situation already with pre loaded notions that the idf is blood thirsty. With that line of thought, intelligent debate is impossible. Forcing Eugene to try to prove that his government is not some maniacal ruthless racist evil regime and that its intentions are in fact good is setting him up for an impossible pursuit. I kinda feel like many ppl in here will never give the israeli government the benefit of the doubt in ANY situation, and to be skeptical to such an extent, rather than the typical healthy question-your-government bells n whistles method is off the beaten path of intellectual debate. In other words, if you guys already believe that israeli govt is permanently inheritantly and consistently evil , than wth is the point of this thread? Discourse is what politics and conflicts are about.

i am fully cognisant that the situation is more complex than 'israel is satan, palestine is good'. i come from a country where paramilitary organisations have been knocking the everloving shit out of each other for eighty years. i also see where that got us.

 

these days, things are better. you know what got us to that point? compromise, debate, political process. not bulldozers.

[Lane Visitor]

 

if you don't want to actually address my points instead of spewing this childish and bombastic rhetoric then i think you better fuck off.

i'll debate with you in a rational manner when your "defense forces" stops killing children. deal?

How bout when hamas and militants stop throwing kids into the line of fire? Its been proven already that militants have fired from hospitals, and UN shelters. Children were actually used by hamas/militants to help dig the terror tunnels that were intended to use for targeted kidnapping/bombings of innocent civilians in israel. What do ppl think is gonna happen when a leadership is using their youth as pawns and to hold down fort? Theyve essentially made their own women and kids soldiers, unwillingly.. Theyve sacrificed them. Thats an unrivaled war crime.