Health Goth (post-normcore?)

[sheatheman]

u kno the thread is good when i'm sitting home alone laughing as i scroll.

 

@chen: of course, it was an indulgence, but they are basically selling a glimpse. i read an article about it in NYT years ago, and once in tokyo, remembered. then menu is completely in japanese. even the numbers. all i know is they really seem to have things figured out there. there's something special about it. it's hidden in shibuya--dark wood that goes deep into the building. no two mugs/pitchers/carafes are alike. when you leave, you have a keen feeling that you never spent your money wiser.

[Danny O Flannagin]

 

and fwiw, these "movements" are simply what happens when tumblr uses itself as a self-referential tool for deciding what's current and hip, as if 1000 people dressing in a vaguely similar cosmetic (read: superficial) way constitutes some sort of social stance.

y'know i've always wondered where these subcultures actually exist, like "hmm this stuff must be thriving somewhere more hipster than wherever I'm currently at, because it sure ain't here". But now it seems clear these things mostly just exist on the internet

 

i stand by some parts of vaporwave being really interesting, conceptually, even if a lot of the aesthetic/output itself did absolutely nothing for me

 

also that black cheeseburger looks good

 

"Country: Canada"

[chenGOD]

u kno the thread is good when i'm sitting home alone laughing as i scroll.

 

@chen: of course, it was an indulgence, but they are basically selling a glimpse. i read an article about it in NYT years ago, and once in tokyo, remembered. then menu is completely in japanese. even the numbers. all i know is they really seem to have things figured out there. there's something special about it. it's hidden in shibuya--dark wood that goes deep into the building. no two mugs/pitchers/carafes are alike. when you leave, you have a keen feeling that you never spent your money wiser.

 

You sure you're not ascribing pre-conceived ideals about Japan to a drip coffee? No two mugs are the same? Shocking. Kind of like my kitchen for most of my 20s lol.

Also, is it not understandable that the menu is completely in Japanese? You're in Japan. I dunno, I've been to Japan a whole bunch of times, and yeah it's a neat place with lots of cool stuff to do, but this whole "there's something mystical/special about this coffee shop/comic book store/record shop" is kind of something I don't get. Is it just cause it's in Japan?

Not to pick on you, cause I notice it in lots of people, and it's especially prevalent when people start talking about Japan. It's this whole idea of "othering".

 

Off-tangent rant - this idea that there should be English on menus all over the world to satisfy English-speaking travelers or expats is mind-boggling to me. I am glad of pictures though....Burmese script is a bitch to learn.

[sheatheman]

Well, I hope that at least gave you a nice breeze as it soared over your head.

There is tons of context that I guess you lack which would refute all of the low level assumptions you are making.

1. English menus are everywhere in japan. The Japanese word for computer is "konpyūtā." The Japanese language is married to English and has been for the past century. And even if there is no English menu, usually, the prices are in arabic numerals. This menu even used the kanji for numbers, which is not unheard of, but pretty rare, especially considering it is in Shibuya.

2. Third-wave coffee basically started in Japan, as did many of the brewing methods it popularized in the west, so to go to one of the world's coffee nexuses, to a coffee bar that Blue Bottle Coffee (and a barista I talked to in Omotesando) consider to be perhaps the world's best, is no small experience, and paying 800 yen to have a master make you a cup of coffee isn't a bad deal. He used the Japanese pour-over method, and the way he did it wasn't far off from watching a tea ceremony.

3. I'm not othering japan. But maybe there is a reason their craftsmen have and continue to inspire generations of imitators throughout the world? That no two mugs were the same is no small matter. There are two points here. The first is the pretext of most third-wave cafes favoring bright uniformity in their cup-ware and natural wood tones as a contrast in their tables and seating, so I was expecting some measure of that. Once inside Chatei Hatou, I saw that this was not how they did things. Point two is I realized they were employing wabi-sabi.

I'm not at all a japan romantic. But current day japan is unique in a way no other country is. It is the only country to have ever been nuked. Think about that, people grow up there knowing science's most terrible weapon was used on their grand parents and great grand parents. It's an incredible idea.

[sheatheman]

It's not your fault I guess. The lens of the web usually converts people and their thoughts/observations into the lowest common denominator. But out of the two of us, only one has kotaku on their bookmarks bar, and it isn't me.

[Guest]

It is the only country to have ever been nuked. Think about that, people grow up there knowing science's most terrible weapon was used on their grand parents and great grand parents. It's an incredible idea.

that was such a mind-blower when i tried to realize the intensity and overarching capacity of those two acts of... war(?) on a country

[chenGOD]

Well, I hope that at least gave you a nice breeze as it soared over your head.

 

There is tons of context that I guess you lack which would refute all of the low level assumptions you are making.

 

1. English menus are everywhere in japan. The Japanese word for computer is "konpyūtā." The Japanese language is married to English and has been for the past century. And even if there is no English menu, usually, the prices are in arabic numerals. This menu even used the kanji for numbers, which is not unheard of, but pretty rare, especially considering it is in Shibuya.

 

2. Third-wave coffee basically started in Japan, as did many of the brewing methods it popularized in the west, so to go to one of the world's coffee nexuses, to a coffee bar that Blue Bottle Coffee (and a barista I talked to in Omotesando) consider to be perhaps the world's best, is no small experience, and paying 800 yen to have a master make you a cup of coffee isn't a bad deal. He used the Japanese pour-over method, and the way he did it wasn't far off from watching a tea ceremony.

 

3. I'm not othering japan. But maybe there is a reason their craftsmen have and continue to inspire generations of imitators throughout the world? That no two mugs were the same is no small matter. There are two points here. The first is the pretext of most third-wave cafes favoring bright uniformity in their cup-ware and natural wood tones as a contrast in their tables and seating, so I was expecting some measure of that. Once inside Chatei Hatou, I saw that this was not how they did things. Point two is I realized they were employing wabi-sabi.

 

I'm not at all a japan romantic. But current day japan is unique in a way no other country is. It is the only country to have ever been nuked. Think about that, people grow up there knowing science's most terrible weapon was used on their grand parents and great grand parents. It's an incredible idea.

 

1. Yes there are many places with English menus in Japan. There are also many many many more with none. Most izakayas or restaurants have none, the prices almost always use kanji, except for the zero. I'm gonna guess you've been to Japan once? And spent most if not all of your time in Tokyo? (I dunno, since you're making assumptions about me, I'm gonna make a few about you).

 

2. Never having heard of the term "third-wave coffee", I had to google it. If you think that the idea of the rebirth of artisanal coffee originated in Japan, you probably have a big shock coming to you. Maybe we should start a separate thread about Japanese culture and its appropriation of foreign cultures in the Meiji and post-war eras.

 

3. Japanese culture certainly has influence on other artists and designers. Likewise Japanese culture is similarly influenced by outside culture. Their craftsmen certainly fall under that designation. Coffee culture in Japan is highly influenced by older Western methods of coffee consumption, which never went away in the West, they simply fell out of the limelight for a while.

Modern Japanese interpretations of wabi-sabi tend to be highly nationalistic in their character, and should not be conflated with the original concepts.

 

Japan is the only country to have been nuked in wartime ;) Yes it certainly is unique, but if you explore and study Japanese history, you can gain a better understanding of how that uniqueness came to be. You'll also probably start to observe similar uniqueness in other countries. You say you're not othering Japan, or romanticising the nation, but then you go off and spout terms like wabi-sabi, probably in your next post you'll talk about mono-no-aware.

 

It's not your fault I guess. The lens of the web usually converts people and their thoughts/observations into the lowest common denominator. But out of the two of us, only one has kotaku on their bookmarks bar, and it isn't me.

 

Lol, the lens of the web. I've been to Japan about 20 times, as far north as Sendai and Miyagi-ken (really hope to make it to Sapporo soon) and as far south as Kagoshima, and a whole bunch of places in between.

Is Kotaku the gamer site? I know I've visited it, but not sure what it's main focus is.

[gmanyo]

Chen I thought you lived in Japan for some reason. I went to Tokyo for a concert once, it was remarkably overpriced but also pretty cool.

 

I looked up "health goth japan" on google and funnily enough the first results were for that black burger. Didn't realize that was a Japanese thing.

[chenGOD]

Nope, I lived in South Korea for ten years, and like I said, have visited Japan a bunch of times. Have several close Japanese friends and my finacée is Japanese.

 

Tokyo is a cool city for sure, so much fun and lots to do there. But of course there's so much more to Japan than Tokyo. Just like how in Myanmar (Burma) where I currently am, there is so much more than Yangon (Rangoon).

[sheatheman]

Japan developed many of the current techniques and manufacturs many of the devices used. I guess you're not into coffee. If you were you would understand the significance of Tokyo in the coffee scene. I should probably stop talking about artisan coffee tho, since I'm known to do a good riff on tycho California coffee bros.

 

I know all about the Meiji period and the western influence (e.g. French cooking and aesthetic) that started around that time. It's not really relevant to thirdwave coffee. It's really just an aside in this case. Do I really have to unfurl my knowledge of Japanese history to express that I had an extremely good cup of coffee?

 

Also, how would doing that prove I'm not "othering." I think it does the opposite.

[sheatheman]

Most of Tokyo I found pretty disconcerting. Felt more like a hub of globalism than japan. Felt like NYC.

[eugene]

aesthetic accelerationist vaporwaver christian fashionista fracker culture

lol

[poblequadrat]

third wave coffee

the coffee scene

[poblequadrat]

given the long commutes, the crazy real estate market, the rampant gentrification, the lack of public space and the general deletion of the city i think it's a bit frivolous to talk so happily about tokyo's coffee scene and global vibrancy : (

[poblequadrat]

i'm a shit poster, i didn't even reply on my own antonioni thread which i posted on the wrong subforum but i post one-note djgshgnjkgfhj here

[sheatheman]

given the long commutes, the crazy real estate market, the rampant gentrification, the lack of public space and the general deletion of the city i think it's a bit frivolous to talk so happily about tokyo's coffee scene and global vibrancy : (

 

good and bad things exist at once. i was just at an artist talk the other day and the artist was going on and on at how the fishing villages of japan were so important to her practice, and the main feeling i had was how irresponsible of her, especially as a macarthur fellow (!) who should know these things, to be romantic about japan when there are so many deep problems that threaten its future (fukushima, "gentrification" [what a buzzword], aging population, care worker crisis, increasing dependence on digital communication, growing population of beta males, etc., etc.)

 

but then i thought that it wouldn't have served her point any. the reason people get mad and accuse others (wrongfully in my case) of being frivolously romantic, is because they consider themselves knowledgeable of the bigger picture, and to hear someone talking only about the good means they must not know the bad.

 

but apply that logic to something else:

"I went to the redwood forest, ITS SO BEAUTIFUL OMG WOULD NOT BELIEVE!!!"

"Dude, not cool, u kno people chopped those down rite? U kno that half of san francisco is made of butchered redwoods right? How frivilous of you to talk with the veil over your eyes in the wake of an environmental catastrophe."

 

(or in chens case: "The redwood forest is cool and all, but if u actually RESEARCHED u would know that there are cool places like that everywhere. i'm guessing you've only been there once, and spent most if not all of your time in Arnold. My fiance is a Toloya indian, so trust me i kno what i'm talking about in the case of redwoods.")

 

well, i know the bad of the situation, and i know the history. and it's p dumb that japanophiles (one who is even marrying one) here won't let me compliment, nay, recommend, a fucking cup of coffee and where to get one if you ever find yourself in the area, without accusing me of being frivolous and ignorant.

 

 

look at yourselves, is this really who you want to be? it seems so low level.

 

and all of this proves how very special japan is, because the very mention of it causes an autistic meltdown. if i was talking about estonian coffee, interests would be piqued i'm sure, othering would commence.

 

pob, you talk about the lack of public space? that's nothing compared to the lack intellectual space. such a small nation with so many minds fixated upon it. it's the imperialism of the mind, all of these japan experts, they have colonized the best of japan's psycho geography. relinquish your knowledge, let them go.

 

 

aesthetic accelerationist vaporwaver christian fashionista fracker culture

lol

 

 

that was good, forgot to compliment.

[delet...]

I for one have no problem that you had a nice time in japan and shared with us a moment that for you was a point in time that you treasure, even if we old sods could pick apart everything from the crockery to the way the coffee was made, for you it was perfection and that's all good. I like it when things like that occur. Like when i made a perfect dish the other day, was magical.

 

I have noticed that people have been ragging on sheath a bit lately. Chill out guys, he's not the next barry obama. I guess perhaps the way you sheath explain things, grates with people a little, the overt qualification of experiences as being cool, like it's the story you give to impress you friends or something. I don't know. I'm just speculating what would be annoying, i've already said that i'm not bothered by what you wrote. heh. People have good days, why bring them down. (i'll probably be an hypocrite in a week or two when i rag on some wattmr over something or other, and the interpersonal drama inside a teacup (sorry artisanal craft coffee receptacle) inside a messagboard on the fringes of the internet, rages on).

[sheatheman]

Only the Kuro Burger can save this thread.

[poblequadrat]

 

given the long commutes, the crazy real estate market, the rampant gentrification, the lack of public space and the general deletion of the city i think it's a bit frivolous to talk so happily about tokyo's coffee scene and global vibrancy : (

 

good and bad things exist at once. i was just at an artist talk the other day and the artist was going on and on at how the fishing villages of japan were so important to her practice, and the main feeling i had was how irresponsible of her, especially as a macarthur fellow (!) who should know these things, to be romantic about japan when there are so many deep problems that threaten its future (fukushima, "gentrification" [what a buzzword], aging population, care worker crisis, increasing dependence on digital communication, growing population of beta males, etc., etc.)

 

but then i thought that it wouldn't have served her point any. the reason people get mad and accuse others (wrongfully in my case) of being frivolously romantic, is because they consider themselves knowledgeable of the bigger picture, and to hear someone talking only about the good means they must not know the bad.

 

but apply that logic to something else:

"I went to the redwood forest, ITS SO BEAUTIFUL OMG WOULD NOT BELIEVE!!!"

"Dude, not cool, u kno people chopped those down rite? U kno that half of san francisco is made of butchered redwoods right? How frivilous of you to talk with the veil over your eyes in the wake of an environmental catastrophe."

 

(or in chens case: "The redwood forest is cool and all, but if u actually RESEARCHED u would know that there are cool places like that everywhere. i'm guessing you've only been there once, and spent most if not all of your time in Arnold. My fiance is a Toloya indian, so trust me i kno what i'm talking about in the case of redwoods.")

 

well, i know the bad of the situation, and i know the history. and it's p dumb that japanophiles (one who is even marrying one) here won't let me compliment, nay, recommend, a fucking cup of coffee and where to get one if you ever find yourself in the area, without accusing me of being frivolous and ignorant.

 

 

look at yourselves, is this really who you want to be? it seems so low level.

 

and all of this proves how very special japan is, because the very mention of it causes an autistic meltdown. if i was talking about estonian coffee, interests would be piqued i'm sure, othering would commence.

 

pob, you talk about the lack of public space? that's nothing compared to the lack intellectual space. such a small nation with so many minds fixated upon it. it's the imperialism of the mind, all of these japan experts, they have colonized the best of japan's psycho geography. relinquish your knowledge, let them go.

 

 

aesthetic accelerationist vaporwaver christian fashionista fracker culture

lol

 

 

that was good, forgot to compliment.

 

 

hm

you make some good points, i just think we are very different people. which is cool, but i mean, it's always good to affirm what's good but imo tumblr fashion and 8 euro coffee is the definition of bad. i have no wish to attack you, though. i am sorry, i really am. i've been devolving into a shit poster for a long time anyway with my one-note, hit-and-run, communist rants.

 

to be honest i can only like japan at a very superficial level. once you know a bit more than japanophile level, it's just a second-hand, hi-tech copy of bismarckian Prussia who thinks it is the most original country in the planet. still, like any industrial nation, it holds infinite potential, and i hope some day it becomes realised. i keep learning japanese though, that i do love.

[sheatheman]

My inner capitalist loves paying 800 yen (*) for a cup of coffee. but their chiffon cake is a bargain at only 500. Besides, I made up for by depending mostly on onigiri and drinking wonda gold from Family Mart for food while there.

[QBLA]

Hmmm... My son has been picking out clothing lately that is just black with white designs... We went to an event today where they were giving away flat billed hats and they had 4 to choose from... he chose the black one with white logo. most of his jeans are black skinny jeans. His favorite tennis shoes he wears is black with white logo... He's been asking me for black nike's with white logo lately... I'm like... has he caught wind to this fad at such an early age?

[Candiru]

I think I was already a part of this fad without realizing it. I just like dark colors and nice Nikes. Suddenly I feel the need to cut a conversation short without warning to go blast my pecs while wearing Ray Bans.

[chenGOD]

Japan developed many of the current techniques and manufacturs many of the devices used. I guess you're not into coffee. If you were you would understand the significance of Tokyo in the coffee scene. I should probably stop talking about artisan coffee tho, since I'm known to do a good riff on tycho California coffee bros.

 

I know all about the Meiji period and the western influence (e.g. French cooking and aesthetic) that started around that time. It's not really relevant to thirdwave coffee. It's really just an aside in this case. Do I really have to unfurl my knowledge of Japanese history to express that I had an extremely good cup of coffee?

 

Also, how would doing that prove I'm not "othering." I think it does the opposite.

 

Look, I have a Hario kettle, but the Japanese didn't invent that kind of kettle, as I said, that shit never left North America, it just left the mainstream. Now it's coming back into style, and Western manufacturers will reissue old designs. (aside, do you prefer a bodum or a pour-over? If it's just me, I'll use the ceramic dripper, but if it's for me and the lady, generally just use the bodum) Tokyo is mostly significant as a repackager of western items. Sure there was a perio when they were buying 90% of the world's Blue Mountain supply, but I don't think that's true anymore.

The most meta-thing I ever saw in Japan was in Fukuoka, which was a restaurant that was a re-imaging of an "old-west" style saloon in Denver, that was an interpretation of what a Japanese re-imaging of what an "old west" saloon would look like.

 

The Meiji reformation and post-world war 2 goes well beyond just aesthetic and french cooking, especially the Meiji.

 

Try giving Ian Buruma's "Inventing Japan" a read, good introduction. If you want something a little more dense, give some Harootunian a try. His works on the construction of Japanese identity are some of the leading scholarship out there in the field.

The construction of Japanese identity as a unique entity is something that unfortunately in the early 20th century led to some extreme nationalism on the part of Japanese scholars. (See the Okakura PDF).

Anyways, I'm way off here..I'll throw up some pdfs you can read if you'd like.

 

point is: Health goth is fucking idiotic.

4-marro.pdf

99.4harootunian02.pdf

Okakura Kakuzo - The-ideals-of-the-east.pdf

[sheatheman]

While we are recommending reading we assume others have not done, you ought to try In Praise of Shadow by Tanizaki, which helps one to understand the battle of japan's unique identity with its desire to assimilate. Lots of stuff about the use of gold and candles you might never have thought before.

 

Again, you're basically refusing to understand the significance of Japan regarding coffee. Did they invent the goose neck kettle? No. Are they passionate about coffee? Yes, and they have been for longer than the U.S. in this current wave (third wave) of coffee economy. Did they invent ceramic burrs? I don't know. But they manufacture the world standard manual ceramic burr grinders. Did they invent pour over coffee? No, but they DID invent the iced pour over method, and slow drip towers. (your "never left the states" remark makes no sense. all of the main components for brewing coffee had their inception before there ever were "states.")

 

It's like, Vancouver did not invent house music, but is that an important place where a lot of original things are happening right now? Yes indeed.

 

(I haven't done french press in a while, tho my wife made one this morning. The past year I have been almost exclusively brewing with a chemex and hario buono. You use a v60? We also have a moka pot and use that a few times a month. Haven't done coldbrew very much at all this year, but have been doing tons of japanese iced pour over.)

[gmanyo]

hey guys lets keep arguing about coffee in a thread that is not even about coffee