2020 US Election

[may be rude]

it's perfectly clear that trump deliberately spread covid in order to create the conditions for his planned coup attempt. this began 8 months before the election. his spreading of covid served this purpose in two ways:

• pretext for contesting election - claiming mail-in ballots were fraudulent. this is confirmed by his campaigning more against the legitimacy of the election (with false bullshit about mail-in ballots), before the 2020 election, than he campaigned for people to vote for him. 
• a plague and the resulting economic problems fuel unrest and provide the pretext for exercising emergency powers. this is confirmed by his actions during the george floyd protests, in which he clearly was trying to escalate the clashes between law enforcement and protesters. as he was consistently trying to exacerbate the unrest, he was discussing with his cabinet how to implement martial law to address it. 

all trump had to do was listen to the experts, who were begging him. he cost himself the election by going way out of his way to mess up the covid response.

there's really no alternate explanation. even if you try to explain it away as him being fox-brained, with fox trolling the pandemic, he was still the president, getting the expert advice, and so he knew better than to buy into the foxland fantasies (which he correctly understands as information warfare anyway). he knew and he chose to not handle covid correctly. a million americans died.

Edited Sunday at 01:48 PM by may be rude

[auxien]

44 minutes ago, may be rude said:

it's perfectly clear that trump deliberately spread covid in order to create the conditions for his planned coup attempt. this began 8 months before the election. his spreading of covid served this purpose in two ways:

what ludicrous podcast/reddit thread/YT F-tier libshill crapchannel are you regurgitating this nonsense from?

 

45 minutes ago, may be rude said:

all trump had to do was listen to the experts, who were begging him. he cost himself the election by going way out of his way to mess up the covid response.

he was too stupid to listen to much of the advice from the experts, tho he did in some ways at some times, eventually. this is the explanation. we were all there, this was only 4 years ago man, don't try and reframe reality with idiocy, Trump's plenty shitty in a thousand real, demonstrable ways. he wasn't 4D chessing COVID death rates to plan a coup a half year in advance, come the fuck on

[Rubin Farr]

This is the most pathetic political candidate we’ve ever seen in America. 

[zazen]

You can see the cogs in his head turning

"I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs."

"I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you're going to test that too... So, we'll see, but the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute - that's pretty powerful."

[may be rude]

14 minutes ago, auxien said:

1 hour ago, may be rude said:

it's perfectly clear that trump deliberately spread covid in order to create the conditions for his planned coup attempt. this began 8 months before the election. his spreading of covid served this purpose in two ways:

what ludicrous podcast/reddit thread/YT F-tier libshill crapchannel are you regurgitating this nonsense from?

hi aux. this is actually my own analysis. it's correct.

14 minutes ago, auxien said:

1 hour ago, may be rude said:

all trump had to do was listen to the experts, who were begging him. he cost himself the election by going way out of his way to mess up the covid response.

he was too stupid to listen to much of the advice from the experts

you are making excuses for him. it's not a coincidence that he worsened the pandemic and campaigned hard against the legitimacy of the election, leading up to it, based on the pretext of mail-ins. it was pretty fucking clear to people unfortunate enough to be paying close attention.

sorry aux but if you're going to come at me rude then i have to tell you you're fucking wrong

[ARPA]

I like Trump, he's keeping it real.

[EdamAnchorman]

1 hour ago, may be rude said:

hi aux. this is actually my own analysis. it's correct.

you are making excuses for him. it's not a coincidence that he worsened the pandemic and campaigned hard against the legitimacy of the election, leading up to it, based on the pretext of mail-ins. it was pretty fucking clear to people unfortunate enough to be paying close attention.

sorry aux but if you're going to come at me rude then i have to tell you you're fucking wrong

Idk, I'm pretty open to listening to you, but it seems you're taking Trump's actions, which are irrefutable, and assigning to them his motivations, which let's be honest, we'll probably never know.

I always like to think that the simplest explanation is most often the correct one in any situation, and I don't see why you can't explain his actions that you stated by saying he was motivated in the moment by ego, hubris, and catering to his base by going against what "the libs" were trying to tell everyone.

When I look at your statement that he "deliberately spread COVID", I think it's more likely that his motivations were wanting to appeal to his base by going against "the libs" who were advocating for masks, testing, vaccines, etc.  I think it's much more likely that he heard this and was automatically against it (I mean can you imagine him outwardly agreeing with "the libs" on such a hot-button issue?).  And once he starts down that path I think we can both agree that there's no turning back once he's made that decision. He'd rather double-down than change course and even hinting that he was wrong about something.

I think that's a much simpler and more likely motivation than him sowing the seeds of chaos for a potential coup attempt that may or many not have happened months in the future.

 

[ignatius]

37 minutes ago, ARPA said:

I like Trump, he's keeping it real.

trump and kanye.. both paragons of the keeping it real mindset. MAGA is the only valid political movement in america. truly has the best plan and vision for america's future and the world's future. we'd be fools not to keep it real with them. 

[may be rude]

30 minutes ago, EdamAnchorman said:

it seems you're taking Trump's actions, which are irrefutable, and assigning to them his motivations, which let's be honest, we'll probably never know.

maybe you don't have high confidence about motive and intent but for me the picture that presents itself is so disturbing that people have trouble believing it. a president only gets one shot at a reelection, while holding power during that election. if putin and trump were carrying out an operation to topple the us government then 2020 was their best opportunity to do it. 

it's really not that hard to believe, if you've been following things closely. in fact, this is the spooky, ominous din that those in the journalism sphere and intellgience sphere take seriously and nervously refer to, regularly.  

Edited Sunday at 04:15 PM by may be rude

[ignatius]

 

[may be rude]

this is your reminder that, in 2020, all 10 living former secretaries of defense signed a public letter saying that the military must not be used by the president in his efforts to contest the election

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/03/politics/trump-election-defense-secretaries-public-letter/index.html

think about that

Edited Sunday at 04:20 PM by may be rude

[ignatius]

2 minutes ago, may be rude said:

maybe you don't have high confidence about motive and intent but for me the picture that presents itself is so disturbing that people have trouble believing it. a president only gets one shot at a reelection, while holding power during that election. if putin and trump were carrying out an operation to topple the us government then 2020 was their best opportunity to do it. 

it's really not that hard to believe, if you've been following things closely. in fact, this is the spooky, ominous din that those in the journalism sphere and intellgience sphere take seriously and nervously refer to, regularly.  

nah.. have thought he was just embarrassed by covid and didn't want to deal with it because it was something "bad" happening during his administration and everything that happened during his time in control needed to be 100% positive and part of his imagined "best time ever in america and we made america great just by me being in charge".  so, covid happening on his watch defeats that emotional feeling for him so he continuously denied its very existence because talking about 'negative' things doesn't fit w/his "i'm winning all the time" narrative. so, saying he was some how ahead of the curve and had a big plan is kinda silly to me. 

now, saying that he and his administration saw it as an opportunity and tried to make the most out of it by exploiting narratives or taking advantage of financial opportunities etc.. that's a separate thing and i think quite normal for his mindset and the people around him. "how can we use this to our benefit?" is standard operating procedure for him. and ..with the most dark and cynical motivations and outcomes.. i'm sure nothing was off the table.. but even the people around him were saying "hey, a lot of white working class people who are your supporters are dying by the thousands in places we need them to vote for you next time around so maybe we should do something about this covid thing".. etc.

not need to relive the whole trump covid era to understand that.. but if you think there was a grand conspiracy.. good luck. go tell it on a mountain. 

[may be rude]

15 minutes ago, ignatius said:

nah.. have thought he was just embarrassed by covid and didn't want to deal with it because it was something "bad" happening during his administration

i'm sorry but i don't think it's that. 

i know it's hard to believe. that's why people don't want to voice this publicly. i hope eventually public attention moves to this. hopefully if it's established in court that he tried a coup, that will make it easier for public discussion to happen about whether his actions regarding covid related. i'm sorry but to me it's a pretty starkly clear picture. 

if he's convicted of espionage act crimes, maybe that will make it easier for discussion to happen about whether espionage related. you know trump was using those documents for deeply fucked up purposes.

we haven't all seen the same information. there's kind of a small set of people who were watching things very closely and who also had the contextual information to be able to observe trump deliberately spreading covid. you could watch it on tv, his covid conferences. i really hope eventually history addresses this part of the whole trump episode.

it's very relevant to note that the doj determined, and grand juries agreed, that they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt, including motive and intent, in 2 different indictments, that trump attempted a coup and committed espionage act crimes.

Edited Sunday at 04:40 PM by may be rude

[ignatius]

8 minutes ago, may be rude said:

i'm sorry but i don't think it's that. 

i know it's hard to believe. that's why people don't want to voice this speculation publicly. i hope eventually public attention moves to this. hopefully if it's established in court that he tried a coup, that will make it easier for public discussion to happen about whether his actions regarding covid related. i'm sorry but to me it's a pretty starkly clear picture. 

if he's convicted of espionage act crimes, maybe that will make it easier for discussion to happen about whether espionage related. you know trump was using those documents for deeply fucked up purposes.

we haven't all seen the same information. there's kind of a small set of people who were watching things very closely and who also had the contextual information to be able to observe certain things. i really hope eventually history addresses this part of the whole trump episode.

that's not how "history" works. some investigate journalists might get some declassified docs now and then before they get redacted but it's not going to become standard history for people to learn or something like that.  even if this idea is true.. 

also, it seems like your talking about multiple things here.. mixing covid response, election results denial, jan6th, classified documents case etc... some of those things might make their way into some historical narrative that becomes broadly accepted.. like the fact that there was investigations and indictments then whatever the outcome of those things are.. will become history..  sure, there will be a lot of books about trump.. for a while until people are sick of it which is pretty much passed the saturation point already imo. 

and regarding trump and image.. he's absolutely obsessed with this to the point of using certain language to describe things.. he can't even say he tested negative for covid w/o changing the wording so the word "negative" is downplayed. 

 

Edited Sunday at 04:40 PM by ignatius

[may be rude]

2 minutes ago, ignatius said:

that's not how "history" works. some investigate journalists might get some declassified docs now and then before they get redacted but it's not going to become standard history for people to learn or something like that.  even if this idea is true.. 

penetrating the modern information networks is an unsolved problem, but history commonly has a fuller and more accurate view.

5 minutes ago, ignatius said:

also, it seems like your talking about multiple things here.. mixing covid response, election results denial, jan6th, classified documents case etc...

thanks for letting me clarify. it does all tie together, if you assume the conclusion that trump coordinated with putin for the purpose of toppling the us government (difficult to prove but concerningly it is possible to make a strong argument). i was refering to this from my post on the previous page:

Quote

in 2016 i think he was trying to lose because he was compromised. in 2020 i wonder if he was trying to trim points because putin wanted him to topple the government and he wanted to do it.

[ignatius]

8 minutes ago, may be rude said:

penetrating the modern information networks is an unsolved problem, but history commonly has a fuller and more accurate view.

this is open to debate. there are always narratives and the winners write them. taking a multi view perspective on history and events is a life's work for people who are into it and trying to understand the world. think for 10 minutes about israel and gaza and the west bank, think about vietnam, korea.. and generally, how USA interfered in SE asia replacing leaders everywhere sometimes like every year in some places.  think about how only now is colonialism/capitalism etc being widely discussed. it's taken so long just to get this conversation into the culture. the tulsa massacre only recently became something americans were aware of. 

history is there to dig into in a lot of ways but 99% of people don't do it so it becomes essentially irrelevant until someone does a podcast about something that someone listens to or someone spends years digesting all the information and writes a book that maybe 100,000 people read. 

the common narrative is written into the memories of people living through those events and it's completely distorted. simply impossible for the average person to understand everything that's happening with any kind of accuracy and even then there's hidden agendas and an insider's view that doesn't get exposed until much later and that's for the historians to expose. 

will it even matter considering the coming climate challenges and upheaval of all the things? restructuring of so many things over the next 30-100 years? 

 

Edited Sunday at 05:01 PM by ignatius

[auxien]

57 minutes ago, may be rude said:

we haven't all seen the same information. there's kind of a small set of people who were watching things very closely and who also had the contextual information to be able to observe trump deliberately spreading covid. you could watch it on tv, his covid conferences. i really hope eventually history addresses this part of the whole trump episode.

please share this secret information.

3 hours ago, may be rude said:

you are making excuses for him. it's not a coincidence that he worsened the pandemic and campaigned hard against the legitimacy of the election, leading up to it, based on the pretext of mail-ins. it was pretty fucking clear to people unfortunate enough to be paying close attention.

sorry aux but if you're going to come at me rude then i have to tell you you're fucking wrong

yeah, i don't tend to mince words when it comes to conspiratorial nonsense. i'm making zero excuses for Trump, ever. he did some good things during COVID, tho often they were too little too late. he could've done worse, but sure as shit could've done better. if Clinton had been in the White House i'm sure she'd have handled it more quickly and better.

saying i'm wrong or right doesn't make it so, so go right ahead man. it's all good.

[auxien]

41 minutes ago, may be rude said:

it does all tie together, if you assume the conclusion that trump coordinated with putin for the purpose of toppling the us government (difficult to prove but concerningly it is possible to make a strong argument). i was refering to this from my post on the previous page:

Quote

in 2016 i think he was trying to lose because he was compromised. in 2020 i wonder if he was trying to trim points because putin wanted him to topple the government and he wanted to do it.

conspiratorial nonsense. i'm not saying Trump's better than stooping to doing that, i'm just saying that's not what happened.

[EdamAnchorman]

2 hours ago, may be rude said:

maybe you don't have high confidence about motive and intent but for me the picture that presents itself is so disturbing that people have trouble believing it. a president only gets one shot at a reelection, while holding power during that election. if putin and trump were carrying out an operation to topple the us government then 2020 was their best opportunity to do it. 

it's really not that hard to believe, if you've been following things closely. in fact, this is the spooky, ominous din that those in the journalism sphere and intellgience sphere take seriously and nervously refer to, regularly.  

First off, I agree that the picture is very disturbing.  Second, I'll admit that I haven't done too much heavy digging into information on this topic...

But what I will say is that what you're saying here, without offering proof, kinda sounds like steps toward conspiracy theory territory.  For example, I do belive evidence supports Russia trying to influence the 2020 election, but to posit that, "Putin and Trump were carrying out an operation to topple the US government...", even though you qualified it with an "if" sets off an alarm bell in my head.

I agree that this shit is important, and that Trump and Russia and Trump's goons are extremely bad actors whose goals go against those of the systems of government, economy, etc. here. But idk, I feel we still need to be careful when presenting arguments when speculation or conjecture is involved.

I'll admit that maybe I'm wrong, maybe I am misunderstanding you, but it seems to me that sometimes you're so biased against Trump that you're willing to take leaps that you might not otherwise take. If I'm misunderstanding you or misreading you, I apologize.

[may be rude]

2 hours ago, auxien said:

3 hours ago, may be rude said:

we haven't all seen the same information. there's kind of a small set of people who were watching things very closely and who also had the contextual information to be able to observe trump deliberately spreading covid. you could watch it on tv, his covid conferences. i really hope eventually history addresses this part of the whole trump episode.

please share this secret information.

i was referring to public information. 

2 hours ago, auxien said:

2 hours ago, may be rude said:

it does all tie together, if you assume the conclusion that trump coordinated with putin for the purpose of toppling the us government (difficult to prove but concerningly it is possible to make a strong argument). i was refering to this from my post on the previous page:

Quote

in 2016 i think he was trying to lose because he was compromised. in 2020 i wonder if he was trying to trim points because putin wanted him to topple the government and he wanted to do it.

Expand  

conspiratorial nonsense. i'm not saying Trump's better than stooping to doing that, i'm just saying that's not what happened.

must be cool to astral project to the helsinki meeting and confirm

29 minutes ago, EdamAnchorman said:

But what I will say is that what you're saying here, without offering proof, kinda sounds like steps toward conspiracy theory territory.  For example, I do belive evidence supports Russia trying to influence the 2020 election, but to posit that, "Putin and Trump were carrying out an operation to topple the US government...", even though you qualified it with an "if" sets off an alarm bell in my head.

yeah, i know. but there has been an intelligence war going on under the radar for decades. they do shit like this, developing agents, maneuvering them into positions of power. people associate it with espionage films. also it's something that occurs in reality. 

but it's not so strange, a lot of trump's behaviors are straight out of the authoritarian playbook. like, go big, with a big lie. that's a technique hitler described. the bigger you go, the more you drown out the previous things, and the more it sounds like a crazy story to call out the lie. make a clean break in the realities of the populace, they have to choose, so they go with the simpler reality. and trump does that. 

29 minutes ago, EdamAnchorman said:

But idk, I feel we still need to be careful when presenting arguments when speculation or conjecture is involved.

i do use qualifiers and i agree we should be careful in how we speak about it. but i think it's possible and appropriate to speak about it. 

we don't owe it to trump to ignore what it looks like. at this point it's important that people know what it looks like. look at him in the debate the other day, he couldn't even say he wants ukraine to win. it's everywhere you look. he attempted a coup, and he weirdly sucks putin's balls, and we're not supposed to wonder if that's connected?

Edited Sunday at 07:48 PM by may be rude

[auxien]

30 minutes ago, may be rude said:

i was referring to public information. 

cited where?

31 minutes ago, may be rude said:

must be cool to astral project to the helsinki meeting and confirm

what?

[ARPA]

I HATE TAYLOR SWIFT!
 

Spoiler

 

[zazen]

Just because someone benefits from something (Trump benefitting from covid, GWB 'benefitting' from 9/11 and the 'war on terror') it doesn't mean they planned it. Its just means they are opportunistic. To be good at politics you need to be opportunistic.

Trump was going to contest the 2020 election with whatever he could - allegation of voter fraud or whatever. As it turned out he tried to capitalise on mail-in ballots but in different circumstances (if the pandemic hadn't happened) he would have opportunistically gone on about something else, gerrymandering or voter suppression or anything.

The world is really fucking messy. Have you ever worked in an office and tried to get a bunch of people to organise something? Its fucking difficult. People get confused, collective ideas about what is supposed to happen diverge, a lot of overhead effort needs to be put in to keep people on the same page and even then there'll be endless debates about should we switch to a different page. I have a theory that most conspiracy theorists have never worked in an office, because if they had they'd know how hard organising is.

The military are farily organised but they still fuck a lot of things up.

As for Trump - Trump's team ended up doing a press conference in Four Seasons Landscaping for fuck's sake

Edited Sunday at 08:33 PM by zazen

[cern]

I heard that aTaylor Swift fan got very upset and was gonna kill the president Trump earlier today

Is it anymore updates on this? Suspect had a gun!! 

Edited Sunday at 08:36 PM by cern

[may be rude]

38 minutes ago, auxien said:

1 hour ago, may be rude said:

i was referring to public information. 

cited where?

dude you were responding to me seeing "we've seen different information"

was i supposed to have a citation for that comment? do you want a citation of all information i've seen? there's a lot i've consumed. and 99.9% of people haven't seen that stuff. 

Edited Sunday at 08:58 PM by may be rude