SR4 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 but then again, most ideologies are. well put, which is why it's kind of astounding to me that people see libertarianism as some kind of unified front where you either subscribe to ir completely or you do not. it seems perfectly acceptable in political debates to hold certain views of both the traditional left and right but as soon as you throw anything remotely libertarian people get very scoffy Technically, Libertarian = Selfish. allow me to elaborate. libertarianism, as Awepittance said, is not some unified ideology. There are those who lean towards more of a socialist libertarianism which upholds individual rights and free will as long as they do not violate certain egalitarian rights of the "people" as a community. Then there are more recent developments, specifically in american libertarianism (which is what i meant when i responded to chen, Awepittance)...This is the libertarianism that blindly worships Ayn Rand, upholds nationalism and calls for completely unrestricted markets. ...then I suppose you have multiple shades of gray in between...but thats with most things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J3FF3R00 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 The suspected shooter's youtube page? http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/a/u/1/nHoaZaLbqB4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenGOD Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Ron paul does call for unrestricted markets. He believes that NAFTA and WTO are "managed trade" (which they are, but I happen to believe that management is necessary) and most of the libertarianism i see on bulletin boards is of the kind which believes that individuals should pay no taxes. Paul also wants to withdraw from international engagements, which is great, but he doesn't want to do it out of some strong belief in peace, rather it is to strengthen American sovereignty. In other words, he wants to return to a sort of mercantilist wet dream, where he sees America as this independent power. Which is a total fallacy, as years of globalization and trade have whittled away your nation's ability to manufacture, you depend heavily on immigration for service industry labour and if you removed the cheap crap flying off the shelves at wal-mart consumer spending would plummet, wrecking corporations bottom lines. I do like his attitude towards higher taxes on corporations though, and states rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 It is this sort of unproductive rhetoric that we can do without: Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) stated that he was "horrified by the violent attack" and lashed out at the suspected shooter. “Whoever did this; whatever their reason, they are a disgrace to Arizona, this country and the human race, and they deserve and will receive the contempt of all decent people and the strongest punishment of the law,” he said. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/rep-gabrielle-giffords-at-12-shot-tucson-grocery-store/ curb the emotion a little - I know some will also be annoyed when I say this (and I am in no way supporting the aberrant act that this guy has committed today) but he definitely needs psychological assistance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triachus Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 The suspected shooter's youtube page? http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/a/u/1/nHoaZaLbqB4 already been posted wich means you also missed my post about that pic of him, holding a giant crossword puzzle: http://pictopia.com/perl/get_image?provider_id=328&size=550x550_mb&ptp_photo_id=8842226 Jackie Storrer (JACKIE STORRER-cq), right, tries her best to figure out the clues on a giant crossword as Jared Loughner (JARED LOUGHNER-cq), a volunteer, stands in the background during the Tucson Festival of Books. Sunday March 14, 2010 (SUNDAY MARCH 14, 2010-cq) Tucson, Arizona http://gallery.pictopia.com/azstar/photo/8842226/ it does have some sort of photoshop potential quality to it, but i guess it's way way way too soon, watmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J3FF3R00 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 How did I miss all that? I swear I read the other pages. I must be too upset to know what the fuck I'm doing. This shit is so sad and fucked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skotosa Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 There is not one emoticon here on the webz to describe my emotions toward this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idrn Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 i actually find this quite upsetting. on the upside, obama can take this opportunity to send all right-thinking americans to those socialist work camps he's been building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubbhasdance Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 i actually find this quite upsetting. on the upside, obama can take this opportunity to send all right-thinking americans to those socialist work camps he's been building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idrn Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 yes im back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR4 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Ron paul does call for unrestricted markets. He believes that NAFTA and WTO are "managed trade" (which they are, but I happen to believe that management is necessary) and most of the libertarianism i see on bulletin boards is of the kind which believes that individuals should pay no taxes. Paul also wants to withdraw from international engagements, which is great, but he doesn't want to do it out of some strong belief in peace, rather it is to strengthen American sovereignty. In other words, he wants to return to a sort of mercantilist wet dream, where he sees America as this independent power. Which is a total fallacy, as years of globalization and trade have whittled away your nation's ability to manufacture, you depend heavily on immigration for service industry labour and if you removed the cheap crap flying off the shelves at wal-mart consumer spending would plummet, wrecking corporations bottom lines. I do like his attitude towards higher taxes on corporations though, and states rights. certainly. and this is the problem with idealism vs. actual implementation. I also see a lot of flaws in how we arrived to this position, Paul is naive in the sense that he thinks these structures can simply be torn down. There is a lot required even before that step, and even then whether it could be achieved is a tall stretch in of itself. i also think though that people blow his views out of proportion with the checks and balances. If Paul is a strict constitutionalist like he says, and his voting record strongly reflects that, as opposed to the two-faced usual records of almost all politicians, I doubt that unless coerced by some strong outside influence (aka. Bill Hicks' men in the smoky room showing the new president the JFK assassination)..I'd doubt he would abuse executive power the way many people do now. Again, this is a problem in that we would have to assume that he wouldn't be coerced by "the man", business interests, etc etc. I think his career is of some worth because in simple terms, he backs up what he says with the same action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 everything Chengod says is pretty much correct, however the charge of 'nutbag' leveled against ron paul i would argue is pretty off base as long as you're not calling out other status quo water carrying politicians who have eviscerated this country the last 10 years the same. For me someone like Dick Cheney, Joe Lieberman, Jon Bohner is 10 shades more 'crazy' than Ron paul. Ron paul has never implied that we need '2nd amendment solutions' to deal with the left wingers of washington (aka. Bill Hicks' men in the smoky room showing the new president the JFK assassination).. haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba69 Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 The suspected shooter's youtube page? http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/a/u/1/nHoaZaLbqB4 Thats the weirdest fucking shit I've ever seen. What the fuck is he even talking about? He's making if-then statements as if it is somehow proving a point using pure logic, but his entire premise and assumption for each of these statements is pure opinion/nonsense in the first place. Strange format to write in, psycho, looks more like a suicide note than a murder threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpenprol Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 viral marketing for Red State? that youtube video is really interesting. I wish I could be a fly on the wall when a psychologist/psychiatrist interviews him. by the way, what is "conscience dreams" - does he mean "conscious dreams", like lucid dreams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest disparaissant Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 There is not one emoticon here on the webz to describe my emotions toward this. :sup: Even if the guy is nuts (which he probably is, let's face it) some of the blame still falls on those who use violent rhetoric to make their points. Unfortunately, the mainstream media will never run with this idea. Aside from maybe Maddow and Olbermann. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest disparaissant Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 i love ebert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marf Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 his youtubes look like the facebook comments of my (now) teabagger friends from (then)college Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remy marathe Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 The suspected shooter's youtube page? http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/a/u/1/nHoaZaLbqB4 that makes ulillillia look like richard fucking feynman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaini Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 roundup of loughner's social media profiles, with links to further articles: http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/08/giffords-shooter-jar.html this guy doesn't seem left-wing or right-wing. he just seems nuts, and 'oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpenprol Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I'm really confused. This lady looks nothing like Obama or Julian Assange... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenGOD Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto as his favorite books So he's a Commie Fascist? *mind asplodes* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delet... Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 i actually find this quite upsetting. on the upside, obama can take this opportunity to send all right-thinking americans to those socialist work camps he's been building. Yes ... yes im back i was wondering about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Great Maker ShaiHulud Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 http://www.gunslot.com/pictures/good-bye-gabby-gifford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Funktion Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 mccain's statement kicks ass. johnny boy telling it like it is, as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshuatxuk Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 but then again, most ideologies are.well put, which is why it's kind of astounding to me that people see libertarianism as some kind of unified front where you either subscribe to ir completely or you do not. it seems perfectly acceptable in political debates to hold certain views of both the traditional left and right but as soon as you throw anything remotely libertarian people get very scoffy Well said Awepittance. I'm a disillusioned independent that would consider myself vaguely "libertarian" in the sense that I believe in individuality and personal rights, and that the government should protect both. The Tea Party movement has hijacked and simplified the diverse ideal of libertarianism and molded it into a contradictory agenda that has basically tweaked the same shit that far-right Republicans have been saying for the last 20 years. They've shut out anti-war and pro-life from the ranks and injected the bullshit that the religous right believes. They've embraced Ayn Rand and Thomas Paine even though they were anti-religion. It'd be hilarious to watch if they weren't actually getting people elected. everything Chengod says is pretty much correct, however the charge of 'nutbag' leveled against ron paul i would argue is pretty off base as long as you're not calling out other status quo water carrying politicians who have eviscerated this country the last 10 years the same. For me someone like Dick Cheney, Joe Lieberman, Jon Bohner is 10 shades more 'crazy' than Ron paul. Ron paul has never implied that we need '2nd amendment solutions' to deal with the left wingers of washington (aka. Bill Hicks' men in the smoky room showing the new president the JFK assassination)..haha Ron Paul is sincere, and he often votes with Dems (in the very few votes he will cast) agains things like the Iraq War and the Patriot Act. He's always treated the left with respect. His son's a fucking nutjob though, and he's in line with Bohner, Bachmann, Flint, and all of those other GOP nutjobs who've embraced the Tea Party. Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto as his favorite booksSo he's a Commie Fascist? *mind asplodes* Exactly. Many Tea Party members are military veterans with Federal government pensions who are ready to "fight" the same Federal government because a few people now have to purchase private health insurance or face a fine . W pumped 700 billion in the Medicare system and no one on the far-right gave a shit, because he had an illegal war for to run without interruption, but now that a black liberal is president it's the fucking end of the world to them. It's beyond hypocritical, it's disgusting. I work for the Texas State in Austin and our legislative session starts this Tuesday, with a influx of new rightwing morons being sworn in. One of the first things they plan to do is oust the current Speaker of the House, because, among other things, they think "Texas needs a strong Christian leader,"...the current speaker is a moderate, bipartisan, Jewish Republican. Last year we had a guy crash into the IRS building and another fired shots at the State Capitol. None of these guys are direct agents of the GOP, or Tea Party, or Talk Radio, but they don't have to be when their radical ideas are considered worthy of endorsment from people like Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, etc. You know the worse part about Gabrielle Gifford being attacked? She's a moderate. She's sane. She literally was one of the most approachable and involved politicians in this country. We live in a country where the most pragmatic and sensible public figures are threatened and now literally shot at. I won't get my hopes up too high, but this better fucking kill the right-wing idiocy movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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