Bob Herbert's last piece for the NYT.

[chenGOD]

lol you and I know that the end is coming, but that tea partier you talked to the other night sure doesn't.

[Salvatorin]

this comment was really something:

 

Despite its basic sadness, this re-run of Iraq, now repeating in Libya as farce, and the whole tragedy of our broken energy politics, have had their surreal moments these past few days:

 

--the U.S.-armed Saudi army pouring across the border into neighboring Bahrain to protect the despotic “king” and scatter the Bahraini people who were peacefully demonstrating for freedom at Pearl Square just days before our military intervention to “protect freedom demonstrators” in Libya;

 

--our bosom friend and ally the dictator of Yemen ordering his sharpshooters posted on rooftops to massacre over 40 Yemini citizens demonstrating peacefully for freedom in front of his palace while we were running our spin-op about “protecting Libyan citizens from being massacred” by the Libyan dictator;

 

--Gen. Petraeus and Sec. of Defense Gates being caught by an NBC boom-microphone in their March 7th tarmac exchange: Petraeus “You going to launch some attacks on Libya or something?’’, Gates “Yeah, exactly.’’, back when Gates and Obama were denying any such intention;

 

--British Prime Minister David Cameron, famous so far for slashing the budget and his country’s social safety net, and sending hundreds of thousands more to the unemployment lines, suddenly finding lots of new money for a new war;

 

--President of the Republic Sarkozy rebounding so quickly, cannily staging photo-ops with Cameron and Clinton next to his presidential color guard, dressed in uniforms harking back to the era of Napoleon, just days after being shamed for offering military support to Tunisia’s dictator as he was stealing bars of gold from his central bank and fleeing the country in his private jet;

 

--savvy-sounding, empty-suit pundits at CNN and Fox News giving animated presentations, just like in the old days with Iraq, but now with more colorful, even wall-sized graphics, describing the latest military hardware on display over Libya, in reports again completely devoid of any information on the real nature of this war;

Pres. Obama and Energy Sec. Chu, and Interior Sec. Salazar were also busy providing us with comic relief this week:

--you may recall how Pres. Obama slashed new construction credits for renewable energy projects in half this past fall (from $6 to $3 billion);

--for balance, this week he repeated his desire to triple federal credit guarantees for new nuclear plant construction (from $18.5 billion to $54.5 billion!) just as we were witnessing the disaster of multiple G.E.-designed nuclear reactors in Japan overheating, exploding, burning, and spewing out massive amounts of radioactive materials over the region (we’ve got some 23 of that model here in the U.S.);

--to round things out, the Obama administration this week first opened the door for 2.35 billion tons of new coal mining;

--then he signed off on 4 new deepwater oil drilling permits to multinational oil giants Shell and Exxon in Gulf of Mexico just two days before a report became public showing that the blowout preventers now in use are flawed and won't work in an emergency (like the one that resulted in the BP Gulf oil disaster).

 

Funny how history sometimes does seem to repeat itself as farce, isn't it?

[Salvatorin]

actually almost all the comments on the article are really pertinent. They're getting me all bothered.

[Guest Z_B_Z]

yeah, well you can kiss all that shit goodbye. states are cutting programs left and right in the name of balancing budgets, and in the long run it wont improve anything at all. these programs are symptoms of the problem, not the root of it.

[goDel]

Is anyone following the new Niall Ferguson documentary "Civilization: Is the west history?". It basically covers this thread and more. It picks up at the moment in history when China was the world power in the 14th century and tells the story about its decline and likewise for the middle east and the west in the centuries following.

[chenGOD]

Is anyone following the new Niall Ferguson documentary "Civilization: Is the west history?". It basically covers this thread and more. It picks up at the moment in history when China was the world power in the 14th century and tells the story about its decline and likewise for the middle east and the west in the centuries following.

 

Is he seriously saying that China was in decline from the 14th century?

[SR4]

Is anyone following the new Niall Ferguson documentary "Civilization: Is the west history?". It basically covers this thread and more. It picks up at the moment in history when China was the world power in the 14th century and tells the story about its decline and likewise for the middle east and the west in the centuries following.

 

Is he seriously saying that China was in decline from the 14th century?

 

there was a sociologist in the early 20th century that had a thesis eerily similar to what goDel is talking about...but I can't remember the guys name..

[goDel]

Is anyone following the new Niall Ferguson documentary "Civilization: Is the west history?". It basically covers this thread and more. It picks up at the moment in history when China was the world power in the 14th century and tells the story about its decline and likewise for the middle east and the west in the centuries following.

 

Is he seriously saying that China was in decline from the 14th century?

If my memory is correct: in the documentary it is argued that from the 15th century and onward China's focus was very much pointed internally. While in the 14th century they explored the world seas, and the focus was very much outwards. From the 15th centuries and onwards, from an international point-of-view China placed itself more in the background. And middle-eastern and western civilizations were expanding. I'm not going into a semantic discussion whether or not China was in decline. And what is actually meant with decline. But from the perspective that is used in the docu it sort of is. It tries to explain what factors explain the rise and fall of different civilizations. Exploration is one of them. In the docu it is argued that the peak of Chinese exploration was in the 14th century.

 

 

Please don't go all "I know better" on me. Everything is relative. Even concepts of being in decline.

[awepittance]

Change We Can Believe In

[azatoth]

Change We Can Believe In

 

It really doesn't matter who sits in the White House and who has the majority in the House and Senate. It's still the same oligarchs running the show.

[chenGOD]

Is anyone following the new Niall Ferguson documentary "Civilization: Is the west history?". It basically covers this thread and more. It picks up at the moment in history when China was the world power in the 14th century and tells the story about its decline and likewise for the middle east and the west in the centuries following.

 

Is he seriously saying that China was in decline from the 14th century?

If my memory is correct: in the documentary it is argued that from the 15th century and onward China's focus was very much pointed internally. While in the 14th century they explored the world seas, and the focus was very much outwards. From the 15th centuries and onwards, from an international point-of-view China placed itself more in the background. And middle-eastern and western civilizations were expanding. I'm not going into a semantic discussion whether or not China was in decline. And what is actually meant with decline. But from the perspective that is used in the docu it sort of is. It tries to explain what factors explain the rise and fall of different civilizations. Exploration is one of them. In the docu it is argued that the peak of Chinese exploration was in the 14th century.

 

 

Please don't go all "I know better" on me. Everything is relative. Even concepts of being in decline.

 

I guess you're just not quite remembering the dates correctly...China was inward looking from the 16th century. In the 15th century China had the voyages of Zheng He, although I guess they did finish in 1433, so only the first third of the 15th century. Still, China had much contact with the rest of East Asia throughout their history, and some with mainland Southeast Asia.

I won't argue anymore...even though I disagree....lol

[goDel]

Hey, I was just pointing out an interesting documentary and not claiming any factual mastery on the matter. Thank you very much.

 

It's probably the lack of an hour making my head twitchy. And to be a total nitpick myself: I only mentioned 14th century Chinese supremacy and a decline. Not WHEN the actual decline was taking place. :p

[chenGOD]

That's why I gave you the benefit of the doubt...:)

[goDel]

LOL

 

which benefit btw? I think I missed it.

 

And I'm sure PROFESSOR Niall deserves a bit more "benefit of the doubt" as well. Unless he's one of the lizard people!! :O

 

(obviously, us' decline is last years news outside of the us)

[lumpenprol]

work this out like men, you two - get a room

[eugene]

zhange he voyages were a pr campaign showing the world how awesome china is, their purpose was never imperialistic or even commercial. china was almost always inward looking, although their idea of "inward" is rather broad.

[goDel]

zhange he voyages were a pr campaign showing the world how awesome china is, their purpose was never imperialistic or even commercial. china was almost always inward looking, although their idea of "inward" is rather broad.

 

Look when can go on and on about this, but lets just say there's a distinction between intentions and actions. Yes, the intentions may have been very much inward (don't know, and don't really care either). And yes, the actions were obviously outward. So, now we have arrived at a point where both visions have their merits. Happy now? Are we done measuring penises? Or shall we go apeshit about 12 year olds prodigies? I'm sure his dick is even larger!! OMG

 

So the actual point was: there's this documentary....etc

[BobDobalina]

That adds up to a shitload of people who may not be happy but they're not suffering either--why should they revolt? They're not hurting enough. No one gives a shit about anything until they start hurting. The people who want to rise up the most are too scared to. They have some assets, insure their family and property, have kids in school, are desperate to hold onto their job, have had their retirements gutted by as much as 3/4ths and want to try to squirrel some back before it's too late, etc. If they became activists or revolutionaries, they would lose what littles cheese they had left.

 

I can't lie, I want to kill myself most days. It seems pointless to keep fighting against the entitlement wave and hold on to the things I've worked for like a house, a car and some meager comforts within when there is so much downward pressure. I apply to 5-10 jobs a week, nobody's calling back. Enslavement at Wal-Mart persists. I have a bleak view of what prospects I'll have at the end of my schooling. I wish Rome would just go ahead and burn instead of smoldering and choking everybody with smoke.

 

Amen break brother, this and the carlin video pretty much sum up where this country is and where I'm at with it, shit is painful both in the reckoning and the emotional baggage that comes with it. To wit, the past couple of months I've been wrestling with a pretty heavy decision - whether to:

 

A. go into a high school teaching program (where you work for a year in a high-need/urban school and get your cert at the same time), or

B. remain at I job I loathe at a civil engineering firm (basically I work for a bunch of Type 1 twats straight out of Office Space, although the field I'm in is interesting enough and serves some purpose in society)

 

Would be a pretty straightforward choice for A - helping others, doing something I enjoy, doing my part in trying to correct a fucked up situation - except that

- A earns less than half the salary of B;

- our government, politicians and the oligarchs who own them have decided to squeeze the piss out of teachers for all the state and municipal budget crises; * I agree that the unions aren't saints and the pension system is messed up, but Wall St. and GE get free passes?? Like any individual teacher had fuck all to do with the economic meltdown

- Wife and I bought a home in 2005 - hello negative equity!

- Wife wants to have babby.

 

So basically I'm one of those scared fuckers you described in your first paragraph, and which choice does he go with? So I live in a constant state of hating myself for looking out for #1 and family first, though if I chose the other I'd probably hate myself just as much for voluntarily lubing up to have my family take it up the ass from here forward. The one wild card that I do have to play is my EU (Ireland) dual citizenship, and if I pass my engineer's licensing exam (which I'm hoping to do this year) it has reciprocity over in Ireland and the UK. While both of those places are fairly fucked too, at least they'd offer a half-decent chance of getting any little Dobalinas a half-decent education.

 

2012 muthafuckas!

[SR4]

found it!

 

My link

[goDel]

found it!

 

My link

Great find! Thanks. Looks like a classic. Will definitely check this out.

[chenGOD]

zhange he voyages were a pr campaign showing the world how awesome china is, their purpose was never imperialistic or even commercial. china was almost always inward looking, although their idea of "inward" is rather broad.

 

there are many different theories on why Zheng He made the voyages. Some people think that it was to find the Yongle emperor's brother. Seeing as there isn't much evidence for that particular bit of folklore, let's look at what evidence there was: the size of the fleets and ships, their cargo and contents.

The size of the fleets were undoubtedly larger than western expeditions. The smallest estimate is about 50 ships with the largest being up around 300. The size of the ships themselves has been in considerable dispute among historians, but an average estimation (taking into account the disputes between the two schools of thought on the ships) could be around 300 feet in length, and 150 feet wide. Columbus' flagship, by comparison, was 85 feet in length (the numbers are off the top of my head, so there might be some variance there).

The cargo - silks (which were the finest in the world at the time), Ming porcelain and other goods. They also brought with them merchants who traded with the locals they encountered on the voyages.

The voyages reached as far as the Cape of Good Hope (southwest coast of modern day South Africa), and brought back with them exotic animals, spices and woods. So yes they were definitely about trade, and they were also about establishing the might of China. The voyages finished because they were expensive, they had served their purposes, and Ming China was beginning to face serious threats from the north.

 

Professor Niall Ferguson is an excellent historian, but he has one major weakness, which is his pining for Empire. If you read his texts, he does tend to downplay the negative role imperialism played in much of the world's history. Additionally, he is a specialist in European colonialism. I happen to be speicialising in Asian Area studies, which means reading a shitload about Asian history (my focus is predominantly on East Asia, thus my knowledge of events in South Asia is lacking, and Southeast Asia is woeful).

[chenGOD]

Bob - pay off your home as fast as possible - mutual funds no, government bonds yes.

Good luck with everything!

[BobDobalina]

Yeah man--you have to do what you feel but I don't support the "follow your heart" routine I got in the 90's during undergrad anymore. It's an untenable goal. I have thought about teaching as well but it would scare the shit out of me. Kids in America just don't give a fuck anymore. You will always have the handful of kids who are good and hard workers and really make it worthwhile for you. The question is: does it balance out all the politics and apathetic twats whom you can't browbeat like the old days.

 

Regarding babbies, my wife and I are on indefinite hold. What's the point? If you're scratching and fighting day to day, what service is it to your potential child to be miserable and on the edge constantly? Money is funny like that: it can't bring you stability or happiness in itself but the lack of it is a fucking nightmare.

 

If I had a good paying civil service job like yours but knew that teaching was in my heart, I would cut life down to the bone: pay off every single debt, squirrel away a 6 month emergency fund and start some very stable investments like mutual funds, sell shit you don't need, if your employer gives you tuition credit, start chipping away a class at a time in the evenings for your Master's. You will need it anyway if you want to have a secure position in a school--I wouldn't even fuck with B.S./B.A. + certification route anymore. They have righteous bridge programs if you already have a Bachelor's to get your certification and Master's at the same time.

 

This way, the salary cut wouldn't hurt as badly. You would be a shoe-in because, not only do American kids thumb their nose at math and science, the adults to teach it are in critical supply (no surprise really--10,000 psychology and business majors for every 10 engineers *ugh, that's too hard and how would I do my sorority functions with all that math? Communications degree in 6 years please*

 

RE: EU. Fucking do it. The Ireland/Greece/Portugal stuff is temporary. When the EU finally adopts more than a single currency--like a unified economic policy--there will be no stopping them. You may get UK whingers that decry it but they have no clue how terrifying it is to live in America.

Thanks for the perspective man, I'd just entered acceptance phase that the teaching thing won't happen, at least anytime in the near future. The program I was a finalist for was actually a bridge program like you describe for ppl looking to get in to teaching (get paid to teach + earn your cert in 1 year), but still the ends just weren't gonna meet. I actually taught my first year out of undergrad so I knew what I was potentially getting myself into, and you're right about the apathetic little shits that just consume air some of the rest of us could be breathing. So yeah maybe it's just a change of attitude but damn do I hate how the fucknuts who are running this country into the ground have a bro thinking in survival mode.

 

I'm happy too for you & yours & your decision re: babbys; it's unfortunate because I share a near identical mindset to you regarding bringing kids into this world, however no matter how rational the wife can be in other aspects of life having babby isn't going to be one of them - of course one could probably just as easily argue that it'd be myself the irrational one, all Sarah Connor like. So yeah, we're boning without contraception these days, and if/when babby comes we'll just up my antidepressant dosage, cuz that's the way we do it here in America!

 

In the meantime hang in there man & good lookin out

 

Bob - pay off your home as fast as possible - mutual funds no, government bonds yes.

Good luck with everything!

 

Thanks man, already with you on the home debt, I just payed off our second mortgage at like 6.8% with a 'loan' from my parents via their bank line of credit (ain't rich but at least they have home equity) at something around 3%, plus we're trying to make bigger monthly payments down on it, so if all continues as such we'll have saved ourselves a comely looking penny at the end of the line, that is if we ever get there

[ascdi]

I don't have much to add except to say that things feel quite strange at the moment. Being here in the USA, that is. Uh… yeah. Enjoyed the thread, anyway

[TwiddleBot]

What this article failed to mention was how much of an entitlement state we've become. Social welfare like food stamps, unemployment, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security and Social Security disability, etc. make up 35% of total wages earned here. They were 21% in 2000 and 10% in 1960. People can get food stamps at up to 130% of the poverty line.

 

That's also what going to happen when you have a system with very little social mobility between classes. If you are born in the ghetto your chances of attending harvard are pretty friggin low. It likely won't even be in your sights, not just for economical reasons, but for reasons of class and cultural/social circles. By the way we have similar problems here in Canada as well, we just pretend they don't exist. We have our class/racial divide of aboriginal areas rife with social problems (which goes to show simply throwing money at a problem doesn't fix it. But that's another story.)

 

Entitlement is relative too. We all believe we are entitled to whatever circumstance we are born into. I LOL when I see a kid driving his daddy's car who equates his own personal success with his 'hard work'. Or the occasional 'product testimonial' for the american dream where the one in a million from a poorer class through a combination of work and random circumstance 'makes' it. Likewise I believe I am entitled to my way of life, never mind that many of the products I purchase, hell my entire standard of living, quality of life and wealth is highly reliant on sweat shops+expendable laborers. The system be fucked.