We are the Foundation

[azatoth]

my god hautlle, kudos for at least trying. not a single factual piece of evidence in response.

 

 

but see, this is what i mean when Im saying there will be violence before or if anything changes for the better. The "two sides" of America are largely media creations from the Reagan era onward, and are now so ingrained in the American populous that myths are realities for both sides. We are too entrenched in our own ignorance.

 

I agree with that. It seems the population is so enamored about that "american dream" and "self-made man" myth that they simply refuse to re-consider it if it really has any merit nowadays. They love to give that anecdotal evidence of that one person who worked 4 jobs all through college and slaved until they finally managed to get that high-paying job. What they don't tell you about are the hundreds of others who simply couldn't do it. Do they simply refuse to critically look at these myths because that's what they are always striving for and without them they would have no goal in life?

[vertsk8er419]

[delet...]

Also, hautlle you are awesome, mad respect for trying and also having such to the point answers.

[jeremymacgregor87]

There's an occupy brisbane this weekend. I might pop along if i'm not visiting with modey.

 

I'll be there, with a camera, bemused

[delet...]

Which one, there's king george square and some other one. It's all good, i'll be there for 5 secs maybe. But if i manage to get up maybe i'll drive down the coast, who knows.

[chenGOD]

As usual, Kurt Vonnegut had some pretty relevant things to say:

 

America is the wealthiest nation on Earth, but its people are mainly poor, and poor Americans are urged to hate themselves. To quote the American humorist Kin Hubbard, “It ain’t no disgrace to be poor, but it might as well be.” It is in fact a crime for an American to be poor, even though America is a nation of poor. Every other nation has folk traditions of men who were poor but extremely wise and virtuous, and therefore more estimable than anyone with power and gold. No such tales are told by the American poor. They mock themselves and glorify their betters. The meanest eating or drinking establishment, owned by a man who is himself poor, is very likely to have a sign on its wall asking this cruel question: “if you’re so smart, why ain’t you rich?” There will also be an American flag no larger than a child’s hand – glued to a lollipop stick and flying from the cash register.

Americans, like human beings everywhere, believe many things that are obviously untrue. Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for any American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money is to come by, and, therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately, than any other ruling class since, say Napoleonic times. Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. They do not love one another because they do not love themselves.

[Guest theSun]

so depressing

[Hautlle]

As usual, Kurt Vonnegut had some pretty relevant things to say:

 

America is the wealthiest nation on Earth, but its people are mainly poor, and poor Americans are urged to hate themselves. To quote the American humorist Kin Hubbard, “It ain’t no disgrace to be poor, but it might as well be.” It is in fact a crime for an American to be poor, even though America is a nation of poor. Every other nation has folk traditions of men who were poor but extremely wise and virtuous, and therefore more estimable than anyone with power and gold. No such tales are told by the American poor. They mock themselves and glorify their betters. The meanest eating or drinking establishment, owned by a man who is himself poor, is very likely to have a sign on its wall asking this cruel question: “if you’re so smart, why ain’t you rich?” There will also be an American flag no larger than a child’s hand – glued to a lollipop stick and flying from the cash register.

Americans, like human beings everywhere, believe many things that are obviously untrue. Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for any American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money is to come by, and, therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately, than any other ruling class since, say Napoleonic times. Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. They do not love one another because they do not love themselves.

 

 

Wow, so poignant.

 

Thanks for your kinds words guys. It still has my mind running in circles when I think about that interaction on facebook that occurred over 2 days. Reading over it, it's ike we don't even speak the same language. They can't get off the talking points they've seen on whatever news channel they watch (they keep mentioning wealth distribution, socialism, etc) even after I told them that we don't want the government to step in and redistribute wealth, people just want a fair chance to live the "American Dream" in a system free from corruption and with a level playing field.

 

Also came across this article through reddit basically addressing peolpe like the ones I was dealing with.

 

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/12/1025555/-Open-Letter-to-that-53-Guy

 

First, let me say that I think it’s great that you have such a strong work ethic and I agree with you that you have much to be proud of. You seem like a good, hard-working, strong kid. I admire your dedication and determination. I worked my way through college too, mostly working graveyard shifts at hotels as a “night auditor.” For a time I worked at two hotels at once, but I don’t think I ever worked 60 hours in a week, and certainly not 70. I think I maxed out at 56. And that wasn’t something I could sustain for long, not while going to school. The problem was that I never got much sleep, and sleep deprivation would take its toll. I can’t imagine putting in 70 hours in a week while going to college at the same time. That’s impressive.

I have a nephew in the Marine Corps, so I have some idea of how tough that can be. He almost didn’t make it through basic training, but he stuck it out and insisted on staying even when questions were raised about his medical fitness. He eventually served in Iraq and Afghanistan and has decided to pursue a career in the Marines. We’re all very proud of him. Your picture reminds me of him.

So, if you think being a liberal means that I don’t value hard work or a strong work ethic, you’re wrong. I think everyone appreciates the industry and dedication a person like you displays. I’m sure you’re a great employee, and if you have entrepreneurial ambitions, I’m sure these qualities will serve you there too. I’ll wish you the best of luck, even though a guy like you will probably need luck less than most.

I understand your pride in what you’ve accomplished, but I want to ask you something.

Do you really want the bar set this high? Do you really want to live in a society where just getting by requires a person to hold down two jobs and work 60 to 70 hours a week? Is that your idea of the American Dream?

Do you really want to spend the rest of your life working two jobs and 60 to 70 hours a week? Do you think you can? Because, let me tell you, kid, that’s not going to be as easy when you’re 50 as it was when you were 20.

And what happens if you get sick? You say you don’t have health insurance, but since you’re a veteran I assume you have some government-provided health care through the VA system. I know my father, a Vietnam-era veteran of the Air Force, still gets most of his medical needs met through the VA, but I don’t know what your situation is. But even if you have access to health care, it doesn’t mean disease or injury might not interfere with your ability to put in those 60- to 70-hour work weeks.

Do you plan to get married, have kids? Do you think your wife is going to be happy with you working those long hours year after year without a vacation? Is it going to be fair to her? Is it going to be fair to your kids? Is it going to be fair to you?

Look, you’re a tough kid. And you have a right to be proud of that. But not everybody is as tough as you, or as strong, or as young. Does pride in what you’ve accomplish mean that you have contempt for anybody who can’t keep up with you? Does it mean that the single mother who can’t work on her feet longer than 50 hours a week doesn’t deserve a good life? Does it mean the older man who struggles with modern technology and can’t seem to keep up with the pace set by younger workers should just go throw himself off a cliff?

And, believe it or not, there are people out there even tougher than you. Why don’t we let them set the bar, instead of you? Are you ready to work 80 hours a week? 100 hours? Can you hold down four jobs? Can you do it when you’re 40? When you’re 50? When you’re 60? Can you do it with arthritis? Can you do it with one arm? Can you do it when you’re being treated for prostate cancer?

And is this really your idea of what life should be like in the greatest country on Earth?

There's more, it's a pretty good read but I couldn't imagine anyone that is a hardcore conservative doing anything other than guffawing at the "liberal, socialist propaganda site". If you don't agree with the right then you're unpatriotic and a socialist and or nazi liberal

[azatoth]

Reading the discussions that have popped up on different sites I visit in regards to this Occupy movement is interesting. Some have a really skewed view of the world. For some it's simply your own fault for not making in it, it never crossed their mind that there might be some larger and systemic issues with the society that could be a cause why some simply can't make it. Some have it in their heads that it's perfectly acceptable to sacrifice the majority of your waking life toiling away as a virtual slave to just to make enough so you can put food on the table and a roof over your head, let alone do so when you have a family to feed and shelter.

It's absolutely fascinating to see how incredibly distorted some Americans view is on living a happy meaningful life, how did it happen? Have the elite controlled the narrative so insidiously that people have accepted that being a wage slave is how they should live?

[awepittance]

good try Hautle.

 

 

i hate to say this, and call me out on this if you want but i almost feel like the democratic/left side of things almost deserves the treatment they are getting right now about OccupyWallSt because of how much they gleefully would attack the Tea Party protests that were happening months ago. I know that at a certain point the tea party just became an arm of the republican party (much like how this movement might be copted eventually by the dems) but even when it was a real grass roots anti big government movement the left tried to paint everybody in it as a racist hate monger, which to me is equally as stupid and manipulative as the Right saying everyone in the Occupy protest is a pot smoking nudist

 

so yeah good job pundits on both sides reinforcing the boxed in left vs right false political paradigm which will be the eventual destruction of us all

[SR4]

Reading the discussions that have popped up on different sites I visit in regards to this Occupy movement is interesting. Some have a really skewed view of the world. For some it's simply your own fault for not making in it, it never crossed their mind that there might be some larger and systemic issues with the society that could be a cause why some simply can't make it. Some have it in their heads that it's perfectly acceptable to sacrifice the majority of your waking life toiling away as a virtual slave to just to make enough so you can put food on the table and a roof over your head, let alone do so when you have a family to feed and shelter.

It's absolutely fascinating to see how incredibly distorted some Americans view is on living a happy meaningful life, how did it happen? Have the elite controlled the narrative so insidiously that people have accepted that being a wage slave is how they should live?

 

Academic book monpolization, corporate monopolization over the airwaves, private think tanks weaving the narrative tailor made to support their interests.

 

Plus, I have discovered, since I have been teaching Amer. Hist., that there is a very, very skewed perception of the Gilded Age as the beginning of America's greatness. Sure, its the beginning of America's economic and industrial dominance (dominance being the key word here), but it was at a great expense to a country whose people were almost uniformly agrarian (save for some southern port cities and northern cities). Social mobility was a pipe dream until the 1920's, and that's being sorta lenient with the timeline.

[awepittance]

my god hautlle, kudos for at least trying. not a single factual piece of evidence in response. but see, this is what i mean when Im saying there will be violence before or if anything changes for the better. The "two sides" of America are largely media creations from the Reagan era onward, and are now so ingrained in the American populous that myths are realities for both sides. We are too entrenched in our own ignorance.

I agree with that. It seems the population is so enamored about that "american dream" and "self-made man" myth that they simply refuse to re-consider it if it really has any merit nowadays. They love to give that anecdotal evidence of that one person who worked 4 jobs all through college and slaved until they finally managed to get that high-paying job. What they don't tell you about are the hundreds of others who simply couldn't do it. Do they simply refuse to critically look at these myths because that's what they are always striving for and without them they would have no goal in life?

 

on a very basic level it's called solipsism, you assume based on a cloistered world view that if you 'could do it' then surely everyone one else around you had at least the same or more of an opportunity than you did, it seems psychologically impossible to try and put yourself into the shoes of a person who was born out of actual poverty. If only Americans would start looking at the 'become a millionaire' american dream the same was as hitting the jackpot in the lottery = a statistical improbability or more like impossibility.

[essines]

[SR4]

good try Hautle.

 

 

i hate to say this, and call me out on this if you want but i almost feel like the democratic/left side of things almost deserves the treatment they are getting right now about OccupyWallSt because of how much they gleefully would attack the Tea Party protests that were happening months ago. I know that at a certain point the tea party just became an arm of the republican party (much like how this movement might be copted eventually by the dems) but even when it was a real grass roots anti big government movement the left tried to paint everybody in it as a racist hate monger, which to me is equally as stupid and manipulative as the Right saying everyone in the Occupy protest is a pot smoking nudist

 

so yeah good job pundits on both sides reinforcing the boxed in left vs right false political paradigm which will be the eventual destruction of us all

 

But I feel its a little too narrow-minded to say who deserves what (no offense intended, awe). This blame game really needs to stop that this point. It is only to the detriment of everyone involved, and performs exactly how the entrenched corporate magnates want it to. The Tea Party and Occupy provide sufficient ammunition to once again embolden each of the polarized sides in the voting booths, regardless or whether or not their party candidates accurately reflect their needs and demands. I find it interesting that with each presidential debate/election in the past 20-30 years, "grassroots activism" is able to organize more cohesively under a very particular voting banner.

 

Im sure there were libertarians and perhaps even nazi sympathizers on the extreme (though i am not trying to paint the entire tea party as nazis, thats absolutely not true) in the Tea Party that ended up voting Republican, just as a lot of these self proclaimed independents, socialists, anarchists will ultimately end up voting Democratic.

[SR4]

 

note the (2 scholarships which paid for 90% of my tuition)

 

 

he certainly is not the 99% according to that point alone. I would love to see the numbers of university students that had 90% of their costs paid for them.

[awepittance]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOZ0fTOwvDk&feature=related

 

are youtube links working for others right now? they stopped working for me inexplicably

[awepittance]

This blame game really needs to stop that this point. It is only to the detriment of everyone involved, and performs exactly how the entrenched corporate magnates want it to.

 

well that was the point i was trying to make, that the setup of attacking the tea party so viciously it was only inevitable that if a left leaning protest movement propped up the right wing would vitriolically attack it out of retaliation. but i dont think the people in the actual protest are to blame, if anything the pundits who sit on TV on mainstream news channels are to blame in large part for framing the debate and the narrative of how the public discusses things. And yeah you could argue that people think for themselves, you cant blame the media, but i do, because they know exactly what they are doing ie polarizing people and forcing them into a box for a larger purpose

[essines]

 

note the (2 scholarships which paid for 90% of my tuition)

 

 

he certainly is not the 99% according to that point alone. I would love to see the numbers of university students that had 90% of their costs paid for them.

Well, what gets me is he doesn't seem to mind that his life really doesn't sound all that great. He sounds like he is saying "Life is shit and hard but that's all I deserve." Fuck that. All he has to look forward to is nothing and he's totally ok with being apathetic. So fuck him.

 

And whether you are or not is your decision. Yup.

[awepittance]

yeah what's funny about that is he seems to be fitting into the 'pickyourself up by your bootstraps' mentality of mainstream conservationism but at the same time has zero idealism. an apologist for his own stagnancy if you will, which is just weird to be but becoming more normal over time.

[SR4]

exactly. I was going to write a very long-winded post about my background in academia, but in a nutshell I received a very very nice tuition waiver. Yet due to health problems, exorbitant prices for rent around here, food, etc. etc. etc. I wasn't even close to paying without getting another job AND depending on some student loans (albeit much smaller than the average amount).

 

Now im graduating into a fucking horrible job market. I worked my ass off, got to the top of my class, high marks, published articles, a book in publication, and working two part-time jobs for minimum wage. I barely break even every month; some months I have to ask my parents for a few bucks for food, or take oddjobs mowing lawns.

 

This is to fucking MAKE ENDS MEET. I have no superfluous income. I checked my tax returns for the past two years, and I was well under the poverty line. This combined with the fact that I invest more workhours in academics and my two jobs than most people earning a 30k salary.

 

Is it my fault for jumping into a shit job market? Sure, I think I could be blamed for that. But I certainly have the right to fucking complain, and I am not going to sit idly by and have some fatass, 350 pound 50 year old that works in a cushy family business with a healthcare plan and benefits accuse ME of being lazy.

 

I didn't get the same life he did. Fair enough. But FUCK YOU for accusing ME of being lazy, that it is solely my failure in society. I am not asking for handouts. I am asking for a fair fucking chance. Maybe my amped up credentials will give me the well-needed break/promotion in academia that I need, but it is common fucking sense for someone to be frustrated about this way of existence. My grandfather retired at 50 with great benefits, and accuses me of being lazy? I don't get to fucking retire. I probably won't ever be able to be financially secure working one 40-hour job, and I would be more than willing to suggest that I will have done FAR more work with far more effort in terms of hours, blood sweat and tears than he had in 50 years, and I will earn a fucking fraction of what he did.

 

Again, it is my fault to some degree, but no one is gonna fucking call me lazy.

 

Seriously this shit pisses me off.

[vamos scorcho]

 

note the (2 scholarships which paid for 90% of my tuition)

 

 

he certainly is not the 99% according to that point alone. I would love to see the numbers of university students that had 90% of their costs paid for them.

Well, what gets me is he doesn't seem to mind that his life really doesn't sound all that great. He sounds like he is saying "Life is shit and hard but that's all I deserve." Fuck that. All he has to look forward to is nothing and he's totally ok with being apathetic. So fuck him.

 

And whether you are or not is your decision. Yup.

 

I'd love to punch that guy in the face.

[SR4]

and this is also exemplary of the rising apathy in the American tradition. Why the fuck should the younger generations believe in the American dream? It doesn't fucking exist for us anymore. Families are no longer viewed as the transition into true manhood/womanhood, emblematic of success. Its a few other mouths to feed, its a family you never get to see or raise because of work. You might get to see a baseball game with your kid every month, or some form of outside entertainment, but there are many that aren't even that lucky. I refuse to believe its because these people are all lazy, ne'er do well leeches on society. These people aren't asking for 100 grand upfront. They want fucking JOBS, and a meaning to actually invest themselves in the idea of the democratic system, politics, consumerism, etc.

 

I mean these people are practically being told, "you can't get a job, its not only because America doesn't have room for you, its also because you have no inherent worth in our society, and therefore you are being treated as such. We can only pray that the last of the welfare state is removed and you are allowed to shrivel up and die like the non-contributing zero you are."

 

This is the second Gilded Age. The question is whether we will have a second wave of social reaction against it, or further inequality.

[awepittance]

he's also missing a great deal of the point of going after Wall St. On a fundamental level he doesn't absolutely zero to explain the double standard of bailing out banks that are 'too big to fail' for making stupid and overly risky investments VS not doing anything to help the average every day citizen who is failing from home foreclosures from predatory loans by the same banks that are being bailed out.

 

even my conservative Bush voting Fox news watching Uncles who are practically mentally retarded understand what i just said and strongly believe that there is a double standard

[azatoth]

It will all be crashing down in spectacular fashion and we'll be rubbing sticks together to make fire in a few decades.

[SR4]

I think the big hit to our collective psyche will be in 5-10 years from now, when the other waves of graduates swell the ranks of the unemployed to a critical breaking point.