eugene Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 there's no evidence for any biological drives for human behaviour, it's archaic nonsense. the so called scientific racists have been trying to find that shit for decades, but all their research turned out to be poop, same with biological determinants for intelligence or whatever. with humans when it comes to behavior it's all about consciousness construction and meaning attachment. no gender roles developed naturally, they vary a lot across different cultures. this is hilarious nonsense. and scientific racism has absolutely nothing to do with anything I'm saying. you really think there's no biological drives for any human behaviour? and how do you think consciousness gets constructed, and meaning derived? by magic? of course genders roles developed naturally. and despite differences, the vast similarities in all cultures, cultures who never came into contact with one another, completely disprove your point of view. there's no clear evidence for any biological drives of human behavior. consciousness gets constructed via interaction of people with the world and other people. some similarity in gender roles doesn't prove your point at all, there are very similar physical and biological conditions (it's women who give birth and breastfeed children after all) that act as a starting point to human society development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 power is the ability to make you do something even if it's against your will. looks at percentages of women in any highly valued professions, sciences, government positions, army, and so on. the decisions that affect's most peoples lives are predominantly made by men. Yeah, and 99% of men will never be in those positions of power, and guess what - the only gender related issues being addressed right now are women's issues, regardless of the gender of the people in power. Surely the ACTUAL RESULTS of x group being in power is more important than their gender. let's not talk stupid shit. professionals, scientists, managers, business owners and so on make way more than 1%. i don't understand what are you talking about in the rest of your post. You think women can't become professionals, scientists, managers, and business owners? You think they are all men? So fucking out of touch with reality The fact that women tend to choose not to do things is more indicative of their personal choices than a society which forces them to avoid these roles. How many fucking "Let's get more women into STEM!" campaigns and female only scholarships are there? They don't want to Any person, and including any woman, who says "I want to be a business owner and manager but I can't because society is just holding me down, it's not my fault!" is not fit to be one anyway they can but it's more difficult for them than for men. enough with this personal choice crap already, the conditions are different for different genders, why can't you get it through your head? going against the expectations and wills of the society and even own gendered consciousness that still draws a lot from patriarchy is not easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Mughnus Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 power is the ability to make you do something even if it's against your will. looks at percentages of women in any highly valued professions, sciences, government positions, army, and so on. the decisions that affect's most peoples lives are predominantly made by men. Yeah, and 99% of men will never be in those positions of power, and guess what - the only gender related issues being addressed right now are women's issues, regardless of the gender of the people in power. Surely the ACTUAL RESULTS of x group being in power is more important than their gender. let's not talk stupid shit. professionals, scientists, managers, business owners and so on make way more than 1%. i don't understand what are you talking about in the rest of your post. You think women can't become professionals, scientists, managers, and business owners? You think they are all men? So fucking out of touch with reality The fact that women tend to choose not to do things is more indicative of their personal choices than a society which forces them to avoid these roles. How many fucking "Let's get more women into STEM!" campaigns and female only scholarships are there? They don't want to Any person, and including any woman, who says "I want to be a business owner and manager but I can't because society is just holding me down, it's not my fault!" is not fit to be one anyway they can but it's more difficult for them than for men. enough with this personal choice crap already, the conditions are different for different genders, why can't you get it through your head? going against the expectations and wills of the society and even own gendered consciousness that still draws a lot from patriarchy is not easy. Just posting some employment stats to back up your point eugene. http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 power is the ability to make you do something even if it's against your will. looks at percentages of women in any highly valued professions, sciences, government positions, army, and so on. the decisions that affect's most peoples lives are predominantly made by men. Yeah, and 99% of men will never be in those positions of power, and guess what - the only gender related issues being addressed right now are women's issues, regardless of the gender of the people in power. Surely the ACTUAL RESULTS of x group being in power is more important than their gender. let's not talk stupid shit. professionals, scientists, managers, business owners and so on make way more than 1%. i don't understand what are you talking about in the rest of your post. You think women can't become professionals, scientists, managers, and business owners? You think they are all men? So fucking out of touch with reality The fact that women tend to choose not to do things is more indicative of their personal choices than a society which forces them to avoid these roles. How many fucking "Let's get more women into STEM!" campaigns and female only scholarships are there? They don't want to Any person, and including any woman, who says "I want to be a business owner and manager but I can't because society is just holding me down, it's not my fault!" is not fit to be one anyway they can but it's more difficult for them than for men. enough with this personal choice crap already, the conditions are different for different genders, why can't you get it through your head? going against the expectations and wills of the society and even own gendered consciousness that still draws a lot from patriarchy is not easy. It's more difficult for shy people too, and people without confidence, and people without above average intelligence. Does that mean they are oppressed, because they overall lack the same skills others have to overcome the obstacles presented to them? Are shy people oppressed? Are people without confidence oppressed? Women who want to become politicians and scientists do so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hello spiral Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Just posting some employment stats to back up your point eugene. http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm Yeah? What does this prove? Results are not indicative of opportunity when there is gender dimorphism in the types of careers people generally prefer But go ahead and pretend that extremely generalized statistics support your extremely specific point. This tends to be a very common trend in pro-feminist rhetoric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Mughnus Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Just posting some employment stats to back up your point eugene. http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm Yeah? What does this prove? Results are not indicative of opportunity when there is gender dimorphism in the types of careers people generally prefer But go ahead and pretend that extremely generalized statistics support your extremely specific point I think you might actually be IRL retarded to not understand that employment stats support the fact that women are not granted equal opportunity in some professions. Then again you're just a kid still living at home with your parents who's biggest fear is not having daddy cut your hair so.... I guess you're forgiven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Just posting some employment stats to back up your point eugene. http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm Yeah? What does this prove? Results are not indicative of opportunity when there is gender dimorphism in the types of careers people generally prefer But go ahead and pretend that extremely generalized statistics support your extremely specific point I think you might actually be IRL retarded to not understand that employment stats support the fact that women are not granted equal opportunity in some professions. Then again you're just a kid still living at home with your parents who's biggest fear is not having daddy cut your hair so.... I guess you're forgiven. Yeah, the fact that women less often end up being scientists and business owners definitely proves they're not granted equal opportunity in those areas /s I don't think you know what the term "suport the fact" even means, this is a result of a the extreme left perpetuating beliefs that objectivity is not everything Women choose to not pursue STEM and business fields at the same rates men do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Mughnus Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The stats clearly support that men hold most positions that would be generally understood to be high paying, professions such as architectural (92.6% men), lawyers (67.1% men), scientists (roughly 70% men), etc. Oh look, paralegals are 87% women? I wonder why they aren't full blown lawyers? They obviously are interested in the law? Do you honestly not understand that reality (less professional positions held by women) is indicative of structural and systemic gender oppression? Yeah, women just CHOOSE to statistically make less money. It's their choice. No pressing societal pressures. Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I also find it funny that as usual only the top of a profession is ever looked at, nobody complains that women aren't granted equal access to coal mining because guess what, NOBODY wants to mine coal and it's only men who are ever in situations unfortunate enough that they're forced to to support themselves and others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 power is the ability to make you do something even if it's against your will. looks at percentages of women in any highly valued professions, sciences, government positions, army, and so on. the decisions that affect's most peoples lives are predominantly made by men. Yeah, and 99% of men will never be in those positions of power, and guess what - the only gender related issues being addressed right now are women's issues, regardless of the gender of the people in power. Surely the ACTUAL RESULTS of x group being in power is more important than their gender. let's not talk stupid shit. professionals, scientists, managers, business owners and so on make way more than 1%. i don't understand what are you talking about in the rest of your post. You think women can't become professionals, scientists, managers, and business owners? You think they are all men? So fucking out of touch with reality The fact that women tend to choose not to do things is more indicative of their personal choices than a society which forces them to avoid these roles. How many fucking "Let's get more women into STEM!" campaigns and female only scholarships are there? They don't want to Any person, and including any woman, who says "I want to be a business owner and manager but I can't because society is just holding me down, it's not my fault!" is not fit to be one anyway they can but it's more difficult for them than for men. enough with this personal choice crap already, the conditions are different for different genders, why can't you get it through your head? going against the expectations and wills of the society and even own gendered consciousness that still draws a lot from patriarchy is not easy. It's more difficult for shy people too, and people without confidence, and people without above average intelligence. Does that mean they are oppressed, because they overall lack the same skills others have to overcome the obstacles presented to them? Are shy people oppressed? Are people without confidence oppressed? Women who want to become politicians and scientists do so it's very possible that they are oppressed in some way, people don't willingly choose to have low confidence and average intelligence. and the thing is that those are exactly the properties that disproportionally affect women. the more interesting thing is that many women are still socially prohibited, so to say, from wanting to become politicians and scientists. this is the idea that you should get your head around, then it will make sense to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The stats clearly support that men hold most positions that would be generally understood to be high paying, professions such as architectural (92.6% men), lawyers (67.1% men), scientists (roughly 70% men), etc. Oh look, paralegals are 87% women? I wonder why they aren't full blown lawyers? They obviously are interested in the law? In the style you people brought to this thread: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 power is the ability to make you do something even if it's against your will. looks at percentages of women in any highly valued professions, sciences, government positions, army, and so on. the decisions that affect's most peoples lives are predominantly made by men. Yeah, and 99% of men will never be in those positions of power, and guess what - the only gender related issues being addressed right now are women's issues, regardless of the gender of the people in power. Surely the ACTUAL RESULTS of x group being in power is more important than their gender. let's not talk stupid shit. professionals, scientists, managers, business owners and so on make way more than 1%. i don't understand what are you talking about in the rest of your post. You think women can't become professionals, scientists, managers, and business owners? You think they are all men? So fucking out of touch with reality The fact that women tend to choose not to do things is more indicative of their personal choices than a society which forces them to avoid these roles. How many fucking "Let's get more women into STEM!" campaigns and female only scholarships are there? They don't want to Any person, and including any woman, who says "I want to be a business owner and manager but I can't because society is just holding me down, it's not my fault!" is not fit to be one anyway they can but it's more difficult for them than for men. enough with this personal choice crap already, the conditions are different for different genders, why can't you get it through your head? going against the expectations and wills of the society and even own gendered consciousness that still draws a lot from patriarchy is not easy. It's more difficult for shy people too, and people without confidence, and people without above average intelligence. Does that mean they are oppressed, because they overall lack the same skills others have to overcome the obstacles presented to them? Are shy people oppressed? Are people without confidence oppressed? Women who want to become politicians and scientists do so it's very possible that they are oppressed in some way, people don't willingly choose to have low confidence and average intelligence. and the thing is that those are exactly the properties that disproportionally affect women. the more interesting thing is that many women are still socially prohibited, so to say, from wanting to become politicians and scientists. this is the idea that you should get your head around, then it will make sense to you. Yeah, men are socially prohibited from getting there too, these are elite echelons where the vast majority of humanity will never make it. It just so happens that men tend to focus on their careers more than women do so at the top is mainly men. Women tend to prefer jobs that offer a better work life balance because they have the privilege of making that a priority, as opposed to being forced into looking for the highest paying jobs since they have to provide for their family financially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caze Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 there's no clear evidence for any biological drives of human behavior. what about hunger? libido? sexual orientation? (or do you believe that sexual orientation is a choice?) there is very clear evidence of the behavioural effects of many genes, here's a good example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOSB genes don't explain anywhere near the whole picture though, also really important is pre-natal neural development and how it relates to the endocrine system (this has a big impact on all kinds of things like sexuality, personality and intelligence). neural plasticity is fascinating, it's most active from the womb to pre-teen years, then starts slowing down over the next decade and becomes relatively fixed after that (ignoring things like brain trauma, strokes, sensory debilitation which can trigger further spikes in plasticity) - this is why it's far easier for a child to learn a new language for example, and a far more likely explanation (or at least a factor with far more weight) as to why there are sex differences in engineering type fields than the hypothesis that it's entirely down to socialisation (the research doesn't rule out socialisation as an important factor though). consciousness gets constructed via interaction of people with the world and other people. constructed out of what though? the answer should be obvious, innate bio-physical capabilities (unless you have a mystical view of the source of human consciousness). our brains don't possess infinite capabilities either obviously, so it must follow that the limitations of those capabilities act as constraints on possible behaviour, and any differences in those innate capabilities between different individuals will lead to different social behaviours among different groups (feedback between those behaviours and the biological elements may well then exaggerate those differences). some similarity in gender roles doesn't prove your point at all, there are very similar physical and biological conditions (it's women who give birth and breastfeed children after all) that act as a starting point to human society development. you've just described biological constraints on human social development, so you do actually agree with me after all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The fact that you're insulting me for living with my parents reinforces another gender stereotype (those things you claim to hate - oh yeah nvm only when they apply to women), the expectation that men should be self sufficient and financially independent or else they're useless because they provide no utility to women. And why does this expectation arise? Because men are expected to be the primary financial providers for a family Nobody insults women for living with their parents. Anyway I live with my parents because it's convenient, I could easily move out right now and be fine but what the fuck would I gain by that. Stop making personal attacks and have a reasonable discussion please, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Mughnus Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 lol you're hopeless dude. Honestly. I've experienced gender oppression first hand when I lived in the US. The social pressures for women to act a certain way were absolutely enormous. Stop making personal attacks and have a reasonable discussion please, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caze Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The social pressures for women to act a certain way were absolutely enormous. There are definitely social pressures on women to act in certain ways, what I find hilarious though is attempts to blame this on 'THE PATRIARCHY', most of the social pressure on women in western society comes from other women (and a few gay men). Of course feminists try and counter this by talking about internalised misogyny, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Mughnus Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The social pressures for women to act a certain way were absolutely enormous. There are definitely social pressures on women to act in certain ways, what I find hilarious though is attempts to blame this on 'THE PATRIARCHY', most of the social pressure on women in western society comes from other women (and a few gay men). Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Some people have shit lives some have good ones. Stop fucking claiming women as a whole are oppressed and men are privileged. There are anecdotes both ways This lesbian chick pretended to be a man for 18 months and came out thinking "Fuck, thank God I'm a woman it's so much easier" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Made_Man_(book) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Mughnus Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 You should try calming down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Yep, ignore everything I've said and instead try to insinuate that I'm not calm as if that somehow undermines my points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 power is the ability to make you do something even if it's against your will. looks at percentages of women in any highly valued professions, sciences, government positions, army, and so on. the decisions that affect's most peoples lives are predominantly made by men. Yeah, and 99% of men will never be in those positions of power, and guess what - the only gender related issues being addressed right now are women's issues, regardless of the gender of the people in power. Surely the ACTUAL RESULTS of x group being in power is more important than their gender. let's not talk stupid shit. professionals, scientists, managers, business owners and so on make way more than 1%. i don't understand what are you talking about in the rest of your post. You think women can't become professionals, scientists, managers, and business owners? You think they are all men? So fucking out of touch with reality The fact that women tend to choose not to do things is more indicative of their personal choices than a society which forces them to avoid these roles. How many fucking "Let's get more women into STEM!" campaigns and female only scholarships are there? They don't want to Any person, and including any woman, who says "I want to be a business owner and manager but I can't because society is just holding me down, it's not my fault!" is not fit to be one anyway they can but it's more difficult for them than for men. enough with this personal choice crap already, the conditions are different for different genders, why can't you get it through your head? going against the expectations and wills of the society and even own gendered consciousness that still draws a lot from patriarchy is not easy. It's more difficult for shy people too, and people without confidence, and people without above average intelligence. Does that mean they are oppressed, because they overall lack the same skills others have to overcome the obstacles presented to them? Are shy people oppressed? Are people without confidence oppressed? Women who want to become politicians and scientists do so it's very possible that they are oppressed in some way, people don't willingly choose to have low confidence and average intelligence. and the thing is that those are exactly the properties that disproportionally affect women. the more interesting thing is that many women are still socially prohibited, so to say, from wanting to become politicians and scientists. this is the idea that you should get your head around, then it will make sense to you. Yeah, men are socially prohibited from getting there too, these are elite echelons where the vast majority of humanity will never make it. It just so happens that men tend to focus on their careers more than women do so at the top is mainly men. Women tend to prefer jobs that offer a better work life balance because they have the privilege of making that a priority, as opposed to being forced into looking for the highest paying jobs since they have to provide for their family financially. there's nothing elite about those, just managers and professionals make 10% of the workforce (this is from german soep survey): there's no such thing as "just so happens", there are reasons for why it happens this way and the reason is cultural/societal constructions, institutions, norms and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 power is the ability to make you do something even if it's against your will. looks at percentages of women in any highly valued professions, sciences, government positions, army, and so on. the decisions that affect's most peoples lives are predominantly made by men. Yeah, and 99% of men will never be in those positions of power, and guess what - the only gender related issues being addressed right now are women's issues, regardless of the gender of the people in power. Surely the ACTUAL RESULTS of x group being in power is more important than their gender. let's not talk stupid shit. professionals, scientists, managers, business owners and so on make way more than 1%. i don't understand what are you talking about in the rest of your post. You think women can't become professionals, scientists, managers, and business owners? You think they are all men? So fucking out of touch with reality The fact that women tend to choose not to do things is more indicative of their personal choices than a society which forces them to avoid these roles. How many fucking "Let's get more women into STEM!" campaigns and female only scholarships are there? They don't want to Any person, and including any woman, who says "I want to be a business owner and manager but I can't because society is just holding me down, it's not my fault!" is not fit to be one anyway they can but it's more difficult for them than for men. enough with this personal choice crap already, the conditions are different for different genders, why can't you get it through your head? going against the expectations and wills of the society and even own gendered consciousness that still draws a lot from patriarchy is not easy. It's more difficult for shy people too, and people without confidence, and people without above average intelligence. Does that mean they are oppressed, because they overall lack the same skills others have to overcome the obstacles presented to them? Are shy people oppressed? Are people without confidence oppressed? Women who want to become politicians and scientists do so it's very possible that they are oppressed in some way, people don't willingly choose to have low confidence and average intelligence. and the thing is that those are exactly the properties that disproportionally affect women. the more interesting thing is that many women are still socially prohibited, so to say, from wanting to become politicians and scientists. this is the idea that you should get your head around, then it will make sense to you. Yeah, men are socially prohibited from getting there too, these are elite echelons where the vast majority of humanity will never make it. It just so happens that men tend to focus on their careers more than women do so at the top is mainly men. Women tend to prefer jobs that offer a better work life balance because they have the privilege of making that a priority, as opposed to being forced into looking for the highest paying jobs since they have to provide for their family financially. there's nothing elite about those, just managers and professionals make 10% of the workforce (this is from german soep survey): there's no such thing as "just so happens", there are reasons for why it happens this way and the reason is cultural/societal constructions, institutions, norms and so on. There's a wide range in meaning of the word manager and professional. Stop trusting job titles. Managers of McDonald's are not jobs women lust after and are prevented from getting Men prioritize their career Women prioritize their work life balance That is all there is to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The fact that you are latching onto that fucking joking haircut post I made is literally pathetic. Please find some substantial points to make At least eugene is trying despite drawing unsound conclusions from the statistics he's presenting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hello spiral Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 ive only ever had my hair cut by my dad while living at home because why not one of my greatest fears of moving out of my parents home soon is that i wont know how or where to get my hair cut anymore without flying home to have my dad do it. can i just show them a picture of how my hair is now and say "make it like this"? or do they have some sort of preset haircuts you can choose from please help me im terrified of my hair being different after all these years pls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5Ub55qx2wQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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