Transgender

[lumpenprol]

Lump, I find it strange how there seems to be a condescending tone to your posts on this matter. And the "I'm gonna kill myself if I don't get _______" thing is really weird, like you think transgenderism is some shallow emo hissy-fit about genitals, as opposed to being a matter of identity.

 

Yeah, I know. What can I say. It is, truly, such a fine line. What seems like mutilation today, due to technological limitations, will seem like transformation tomorrow. I just really wonder: what is the difference between feeling effeminate, and feeling like a woman? If you already feel effeminate, then you *don't need hormone therapy, breast implants, and cutting your dick off*. You may want these things, in which case, if you have the money, go for it. But it's going to be an uphill battle to convince me it's necessary.

 

Which is where the suicide angle comes in. There has been talk itt about the high rate of suicide among transgenders (do I really have to type out the whole acronym?). I can really, truly understand that if it is due to intolerance, to being rejected by your family, ostracised by your peers. But I believe it was said that another reason is the sheer torture of existing in a wrong-gendered body. That seems very bogus to me. I simply don't buy it; if true, I have to conclude those people are shallow and self-absorbed.

 

Straight people don't need anything to just be themselves. Gay people the same. Cross-dressers the same (well, except for a good wardrobe!). But you're telling me transgenders need hormone therapy and a sex change? Nope, not buying it. If that was true, then historically every transgendered person would have killed him/herself. I'd have to say that if that were the case, the gene for transgenderism (assuming it's hard-coded) would have likely died out long ago.

 

In general I just hate politicizing sexuality. Gender studies, gender politics, etc, can all take a hike. Equality before the law? Of course. If someone wants to define him/herself in terms of his/her gender choice or preference, I guess all I can say is a big "meh", followed with a helping of "knock yourself out."

[delet...]

The body modification that annoys me are those lumps people implant under their forehead. That and those punk earings that stretch the earlobe. If someone truly thinks that they are a woman, and doing it by and large on average is vindicated by satisfactory outcomes for that individual, why care, you're not doing it to yourself. Live and let live. It's pretty easy. I mean it is an huge decision to make and one that wouldn't be taken lightly by you were you in that position, so why would you assume that for others it would be a flippant motive. Also to the argument of the need for transformation due to obsession as a symptom of serious mental malfunction, like the quoted example of anorexics. It is the case is it not that by and large other than having a brainstate that translates to the opposite gender, these individuals are normal, not broken, so one should then determine that they are of a sound mind to make such a life bettering decision. Surely with the natural fear of all the implications that such a move would engender. Of course there will be cases of the broken doing such a thing, but this shouldn't sully the practice, in the same way that we should still be allowed to cross roads, even if occassionally some idiot walks across without looking,

 

Another problem people might have with this issue is fear that it may influence the young to do the same. Have more faith in your children, see the above paragraph.

 

Long and short, you wouldn't take it lightly and they're not crazy.

[LimpyLoo]

Nope, not buying it. If that was true, then historically every transgendered person would have killed him/herself. I'd have to say that if that were the case, the gene for transgenderism (assuming it's hard-coded) would have likely died out long ago.

This is a misunderstanding of genetics and evolution and I'm sure if you sit down and think it through for 5 minutes you'll see why:

 

a) suicide does not proclude progeneration

 

b) even if suicide did preclude progeneration, If transgenderism was epigenetic then it would still get passed on

[ZoeB]

Thanks everyone! ^.^ I'm glad I could help shed a bit of light on this much maligned group of people.

I said: "the lack of an ability to think straight when you're on the wrong hormones for your brain..."

Lumpenprol said: "I'm sorry but I don't buy this at all. Is it possible that transgender brains have different neurochemical processes, or structural differences?"

It's not that transgender brains have different processes. It's that female and male brains do, regardless of whether they're trans or cis. (Indeed, without a body to house it, I don't think you could really say whether someone was trans as their neurological sex would have no other frame of reference physical sex to be crossed with.)

See my previous link in my other post, where you can read the firsthand accounts of cissexual (as in, not transsexual) men who are quite happy being men, who took antiandrogens in order to lessen their male pattern baldness, and describe the same kind of foggy thinking that trans men describe.

How you think when on T is quite different to how you think when on oestrogen. T makes you aggressive and very sexual. Oestrogen helps you to feel a full complement of emotions quite strongly. Trans men talk about feeling alive or less foggy for the first time. Trans women talk about being able to feel pretty much anything at all for the first time, and to finally be able to cry. Imagine being in such a horrible situation, and not even being able to cry about it.

"But you're making it sound (or asking us to believe) that it's more like an autoimmune response, where the transgender brain is physiologically at war with the "host body." I'd like to see some evidence of that, it's truly hard to believe that transgender-ism should be classified as some kind of autoimmune disorder."

Try not to think of it in terms of trans and cis. Think of it in terms of female brains and male brains. Female brains function better on female hormones, and male brains function better on male hormones. This is not unique to trans people. It's the same for everyone. If someone secretly spiked your food with oestrogen for several months, you'd feel terrible, even though you wouldn't know why.

"I do suspect, in many cases it is like a kind of body dismorphism due to childhood sex-abuse or trauma...or even just a very active fantasy life!"

As I've had to say to strangers on the Internet a surprisingly large number of times, I have no idea how to prove this to you, but no, I wasn't sexually abused as a child. My childhood was pretty uneventful, besides going through the wrong puberty.

"It challenges one of my closely held beliefs, which is not that men should be men and women should be women, but that at base, most healthy well-balanced humans can swing either way and be rather sexually ambiguous/bisexual/what-have-you. I myself have experimented sexually, I've even sucked a dick (which, rather boringly, confirmed my heterosexuality)...which is why I find it quite strange to come across someone who says "if I don't get a penis I'm going to kill myself!" This seems too extreme, too shrill, and frankly (ironically?) too obsessed with appearances for a movement that claims to be all about "how I feel inside"."

Again, you're conflating sexuality and transsexualism. These are entirely different things. It's great that you feel comfortable enough to experiment with your sexuality. This has nothing to do with your gender identity.

"I also don't quite understand the link between transgenderism and...fucking."

There isn't one. If you have the wrong genitalia, then you probably don't want to be reminded of them or use them any more than you absolutely have to, but that's it.

"I guess I'm a pretty staunch Freudian at least to the extent that I think sexuality informs a ridiculous amount of what us human beings do on a day to day basis."

Speak for yourself. :) As I said before, transsexual women are women, and until you acknowledge that, you won't understand why we do what we do. If you think about why a woman wants to have oestrogen instead of testosterone in her body, it's pretty self evident. If you try to imagine why a man would want that, you'll start making up crazy theories (just like Freud). That's simply not what happens. There's more to people's motivations than their sexuality, you know.

"So I can understand a guy saying "wow I really want to fuck that guy", I can understand a woman thinking "wow, I really want vampire Lestat to seduce me and penetrate me with his fangs", but I find it harder to understand "wow, I really don't know who I want to fuck but it has to be with a penis or I'm going to kill myself!""

So you're saying that although you'd rather have sex with women than men, it's not at all important to you whether you do it in a male or female body? That you'd be just as happy having sex using a vagina than using a penis? Judging by the rest of what you've said, I somehow find that hard to believe... And again, fucking is only a very small part of it. We're talking about how you're presenting to the world in general, how your thinking is changed by chemicals, and so on. Maybe you wouldn't mind being mistaken for someone of the opposite sex for years on end (although I sincerely doubt this), but personally, I assure you I did.

"Can I also say that transgenderism in its vanilla form seems pretty boring? So you want to look and be perceived as a fairly ordinary male or female, how fascinating. How about "I want to be a polyamorous reptilian", dream big..."

This may surprise you, but I'm not transgender in order to appear interesting. It's just how I was born. Similarly, I'm not a lesbian in order to appear interesting. It's just how I was born. I'm assuming you're not going out of your way to appear uninteresting, you just happened to be born cisgender and straight.

You're aware humans can't be reptiles, right? Here, watch this video I made a while back:

"I don't mean to pry, but may i ask, how did you came to choose your female name, given that i presume you had a choice in this matter?"

Zoë's what my mother would have named me. :)

"I'd imagine that It's comparable to how we get to choose a nick for online interaction, a tag that follows us around through the years, unlike the birthname which the parents lumped on us."

Heh, funny story, I started using the username zoe before I transitioned. This includes my home computer, which I often log into remotely. Way back, I worked frontline tech support, and a bunch of my co-workers also used my computer from work, so they all started to know me as Zoë. It was kind of funny when someone from another shift would ask someone a question and they'd say to ask Zoë and point to me...

"If you already feel effeminate, then you *don't need hormone therapy, breast implants, and cutting your dick off*. You may want these things..."

Effeminate gay men do not want these things. They're men. Butch women don't want to change sex either. They're women. Femme guys and butch women aren't transgender. They're separate things. (Although yes, you can certainly be both -- I guess I'm kinda a ChapStick lesbian -- but they're not related.)

"...I have to conclude those people are shallow and self-absorbed."

I don't think it's shallow or self-absorbed to want to be able to think clearly, or to be able to look in the mirror and see a body that "fits" you.

"...historically every transgendered person would have killed him/herself."

Not all of them, but probably the vast majority, sure. I can only imagine how bad it would be to have to live your whole life looking and sounding like someone you're not. I don't think I'd have lasted much longer. Why, what makes you think that historically most transgender people haven't killed themselves?

"I'd have to say that if that were the case, the gene for transgenderism (assuming it's hard-coded) would have likely died out long ago."

A gene's been somewhat implicated as correlating with transsexuality, but not with a complete correlation. Perhaps it has something to do with how the foetus reacts to hormones or something. We don't know yet. Generally, as far as I know, transsexuality is caused by prenatal hormone levels, not genes. Also, LimpyLoo's right, many people can put up with transsexualism long enough to have children before transitioning, so likely historically made it that long before killing themselves.

[SR4]

awesome posts Zoe!

 

 

I did have a rather odd question, but Ive always wondered whether it's a struggle for transgendered individuals to continue to have self-imaging problems after the sex change/hormone therapy. As in, "Im a woman/man now, but I still don't look like that person in the advertisement, or my voice or eyes aren't "female/male enough". Does that make sense? In addition, I was always curious as to how severely you might be affected by the female stigmas after having lived in the opposite sexual body...like, do you feel on a personal level that preconceived notions of feminine beauty negatively affect you, how you should dress, how thin you should be, etc? Or is that more of a peripheral thing?

also lumpy, I just have to ask now, what circumstances were you in that made you suck a dick? porn? drug addiction?

 

it sounds silly but its a serious question.

[ZoeB]

Thanks, SR4, and great question!

 

Well, as far as my voice goes, I haven't practiced it enough for it to sound very good yet, but that's more laziness on my part, rather than a problem with my self-image. It does take a while to acknowledge that you look good though, as the changes are so gradual. There's a pretty funny comic depicting this: http://transgirldiaries.com/?p=1475 I think I was many years post-transition when I finally caught up with everyone else and realised I didn't look terrible anymore. It's still sometimes a bit surprising to catch your reflection and realise you look good.

 

Other than that though, I don't think transsexuals are really that different from cissexuals as far as that's concerned. I'm not the most beautiful woman in the world, but I never expected to be, and I'm fine with that. Looks aren't really important to me. I much prefer what people do than how they look. I'd rather be an ugly musician than a pretty individual with no creativity, for instance. As far as society telling women to spend ages on how we look goes, I'm not really femme enough to buy into that, I'm afraid. Others might have more knowledge in this area...

 

(On a tangentially related note, people who are bigoted against transgender women tend to say that the femme individuals are too femme, and the butch ones are too butch, therefore neither are "real women", with anyone fairly neutral being deemed too much of both. You can't really win trying to talk sense into those kinds of people, though.)

[MadameChaos]

Wow Zoe thanks for all this info, you've been really brave speaking about this and I hope you've enlightened some of our fellow forum members.

 

I also supported Lana's decision to undergo gender reassignment and although I was confused initially when I heard about it, as soon as I saw pictures of her (she looked so much more confident, comfortable, natural) I realised it was absolutely the right choice for her.

 

Really there needs to be more people like yourself and Lana to speak for this under represented group and help tackle the misinformation and ignorance surrounding the topic.

[ZoeB]

Thanks! Yeah, that's a really common theme of transgender timeline videos on YouTube too. It's as if the right hormones allow you to smile, if you compare the before and after photos. :)

[lumpenprol]

 

Nope, not buying it. If that was true, then historically every transgendered person would have killed him/herself. I'd have to say that if that were the case, the gene for transgenderism (assuming it's hard-coded) would have likely died out long ago.

This is a misunderstanding of genetics and evolution and I'm sure if you sit down and think it through for 5 minutes you'll see why:

 

a) suicide does not proclude progeneration

 

b) even if suicide did preclude progeneration, If transgenderism was epigenetic then it would still get passed on

 

 

you're absolutely right, that was a dumb statement on my part. Especially since I've though the same thing about why, say, clinical depression still exists...but for some reason did not apply the same line of thought in this case. d'oh

 

 

ZoeB:

Lumpenprol said: "I'm sorry but I don't buy this at all. Is it possible that transgender brains have different neurochemical processes, or structural differences?"

It's not that transgender brains have different processes. It's that female and male brains do, regardless of whether they're trans or cis. (Indeed, without a body to house it, I don't think you could really say whether someone was trans as their neurological sex would have no other frame of reference physical sex to be crossed with.)

You say this in a few different ways, but I'm still not buying it. Show me a study that shows that transgender brains are different in form or function than cisbrains (lol). If your brain was truly a woman's brain trapped in a man's body, and functioning as such, you wouldn't need hormones. Since you say you need hormones, I guess that means that you just *want* to be female, and are altering your body (surgery) and mind (hormones) to be in line with your wishes. Rather than "correcting a natural defect", you're simply fulfilling a fantasy. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's good to be up front about it.

By the way, all your arguments about certain hormones "fogging the brain" is a bunch of hooey. I'm sure you're aware that a man's body has both testosterone and estrogen (why do you say oestrogen btw, is it an English thing?), and vice versa. They're just at somewhat different levels. The estrogen in my body doesn't bother me a bit, it's there for a reason.

 

 

 

Again, you're conflating sexuality and transsexualism. These are entirely different things. It's great that you feel comfortable enough to experiment with your sexuality. This has nothing to do with your gender identity.

 

Agreed, which I corrected in a subsequent post. Although as I also said, and still believe, so-called "gender identity" is pretty minor and secondary to sexuality (imo)

 

 

 

 

There isn't one. If you have the wrong genitalia, then you probably don't want to be reminded of them or use them any more than you absolutely have to, but that's it.

 

Oh please. Rub penis, fluid comes out and you feel happy. Rub pussy, fluid comes out, and you feel happy. I find it really hard to believe that it is "within the range of normal" to feel so dissociated from one's body.

 

 

 

Speak for yourself. :) As I said before, transsexual women are women, and until you acknowledge that, you won't understand why we do what we do. If you think about why a woman wants to have oestrogen instead of testosterone in her body, it's pretty self evident. If you try to imagine why a man would want that, you'll start making up crazy theories (just like Freud). That's simply not what happens. There's more to people's motivations than their sexuality, you know.

 

A woman doesn't need to "want" estrogen inside her body, it simply is. I simply dispute your claim that a "woman" is even a woman before she is in her body, that there exists some archetypal "female mind" independent of a human being's biology (and hormones!..this gets back to your original logical...paradox? about thinking that a "woman's mind" trapped in a man's body somehow still needs hormones to feel normal...which seems illogical to me). I hope you do recall a time in your own development when you were pre-sexualized, and just a kid. Sure, a kid may start noticing, at a fairly early age, that they are attracted to girls or boys (some start later). They may be attracted to playing with guns vs. playing with dolls. But I would find it very hard to believe that a kid could look down at his penis or her vagina and feel deep loathing and a sense of dissociation. I still firmly believe we are all, at base, fairly androgynous. Besides, gender as it's popularly conceived is a construct, anyway. We get fed most of that stuff as we're growing up, about macho men and feminine women, etc. I'm sure you also know that sexual differentiation happens late in fetal development (I'm guessing this is actually part of your argument, that it somehow gets "mixed up" during the process...but I just don't see how you can separate gender from neurochemistry...you are literally saying your female brain is at war not only with the shell that contains it, but even with the neurochemistry that allows it to function. I find this very hard to believe - possible, but hard. I'd like to see some science. As I said, it sounds like an autoimmune condition).

 

 

 

So you're saying that although you'd rather have sex with women than men, it's not at all important to you whether you do it in a male or female body? That you'd be just as happy having sex using a vagina than using a penis? Judging by the rest of what you've said, I somehow find that hard to believe... And again, fucking is only a very small part of it. We're talking about how you're presenting to the world in general, how your thinking is changed by chemicals, and so on. Maybe you wouldn't mind being mistaken for someone of the opposite sex for years on end (although I sincerely doubt this), but personally, I assure you I did.

 

Yes, that's basically what I'm saying, you got it. I don't even think I really thought about having a male or female body when I was a kid. Sure it was cool to have a penis that allowed me to do "directional peeing". But of course, sexuality didn't even enter my mind. I just find it hard to credit that gender/sex identity (as its popularly conceived) goes back that young.

 

Ok, let's say there's a young boy, at an early age he prefers playing with dolls instead of gijoe, and likes dressing in dresses. That's transvestism (or possibly, later homosexuality), it makes sense to me. It may be a passing phase (my mom was a huge tomboy, for example) or it may be lifelong. But going further, to take hormones, get fake boobs, chop off his dick...for you it probably seems like a natural extension of this mindset, but for me, it still seems a bit weird. It's quite possible I'm just old fashioned. But at least I'm logically consistent - when I see a woman who gets big fake tits I think "low self-esteem and probably narcissism", the same evaluation I'd probably make with a transgender. Someone else might see the same person and go "you're letting nothing stand in the way of becoming who you want to be, bravo!" Different strokes, I guess. I'm pretty sure we'd all agree that letting someone with no legs get artificial legs is beneficial, I just have trouble putting this issue in the same category.

 

Just to be clear about my "stance" (whatever it is): 1) I don't have any prob with guys dressing up or acting like girls (or vice versa), but I have difficulty believing that taking hormones and mutilating one's body is on the spectrum of normal behavior...still seems a bit unhealthy to me; 2) I don't buy at all this idea that there is, physiologically, a woman's brain trapped in a man's body that is being force-fed evil testosterone that clouds its normal functioning. 3) I think that it's too much ado being made about something rather minor, much in the same way as too much is made about racial politics in the US (see for ref: Trayvon Martin case). Gender politics/studies has been blown way out of proportion and leads to bizarre thinking like point #2 above. You may say "well if it's blown out of proportion, why do you even care? Just let people cut off their dicks if they want to, and stay the fuck out of our business". To which I say, okay, you're right. I just like to write long internet screeds when I feel there is something somewhat hypocritical or phony going on.

 

Incidentally, what about eunuchs? I have a fascinating book about Chinese eunuchs on my shelf. They were forced to become a third sex (or non sex), talk about traumatic. But, somehow, they managed to overcome this and, in many cases, become extremely influential.

 

I think everyone likes stories where people overcome adversity, or some handicap. Though I can only really speak for myself, I'm guessing the reason that many people don't feel the same about transgenders is it's just very hard to see the sex of one's body as a handicap. You have a lovely, functional body, the one you were born in. Why not respect it?

 

also lumpy, I just have to ask now, what circumstances were you in that made you suck a dick? porn? drug addiction?

 

it sounds silly but its a serious question.

I had a gay friend in college who was attracted to me, and was doing his best to seduce me, so I said "what the hell?" It confirmed to me I was straight. Funny thing is one evening I got really drunk with the intention of trying to fuck his ass, but still couldn't. What can you do, my high-flying notions about sexual freedom were shackled by my biology yet again. *kills self*

[lumpenprol]

 

 

btw didn't watch the video at first, as youtube is blocked in China. Just did, it's good. You propose some interesting theories as to how a brain might become stuck in the wrong body during fetal development. Still, they are theories (assuming Wikipedia to be correct), while you're reporting them as fact. Tried reading on Wiki but realized I'd have to get way into it to get a clear picture of what the research shows. So far the tl;dr version seems to be: few noticeable brain differences between m2f and male control; more brain differences between f2m and control (interesting). And possibly a genetic difference in "longer version of a receptor gene for the sex hormone androgen" in some cases. Still seems quite unclear and inconclusive.

 

 

 

The authors say that it is possible that a decrease in testosterone levels in the brain during development might result in incomplete masculinization of the brain in male to female transsexuals, resulting in a more feminized brain and a female gender identity.

 

This line got me thinking, has any m2f transexual ever taken more testosterone, to correct this theorized imbalance and become non-trans? Wonder if anyone has ever been bold enough to try that direction, and see if leads to a change in thinking. Seems much easier than going the opposite way.

 

Science aside, self-reporting does matter, and if it's how you really feel in your bones, and it feels authentic, who am I to argue with that.

[Guest A/D]

I appreciate you two (lumpy and Zoe) talking this out. I think you kind of hit the nail on the head with the last thing you said. You're often taking the viewpoint that it makes no sense to you, so the desire midday come from a bad place in other people. Try starting with the assumption that people feel wonderful about transitioning and that there must be some reason for it, even if it's outside of currently accepted science. Or just that things you don't understand can be wonderful and natural.

 

Personally I have no idea how to assess the whole male/female brain thing. Need to do some reading. I said in the thread a ways back that I sometimes feel like a lady. So, I meds more info, if it exists.

[ZoeB]

"Show me a study that shows that transgender brains are different in form or function than cisbrains (lol). If your brain was truly a woman's brain trapped in a man's body, and functioning as such, you wouldn't need hormones. Since you say you need hormones, I guess that means that you just want to be female, and are altering your body (surgery) and mind (hormones) to be in line with your wishes. Rather than "correcting a natural defect", you're simply fulfilling a fantasy. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's good to be up front about it.

By the way, all your arguments about certain hormones "fogging the brain" is a bunch of hooey. I'm sure you're aware that a man's body has both testosterone and estrogen (why do you say oestrogen btw, is it an English thing?), and vice versa. They're just at somewhat different levels. The estrogen in my body doesn't bother me a bit, it's there for a reason."

Hormones aren't produced by the brain, they're produced mostly by the gonads and adrenal glands. So yes, you need hormones if your gonads aren't the right ones for your brain. No, you're not altering your brain's neurological sex, it's already that way before you switch hormones.

It's very disingenuous of you to say that men have oestrogen at "somewhat different levels" as if it doesn't make much practical difference. Of course the levels make a difference, otherwise men would all have breasts...

Both spellings of oestrogen are acceptable, but yes, "oestrogen" is more British.

"...so-called "gender identity" is pretty minor and secondary to sexuality (imo)"

I don't believe that's true. Your sexuality affects who you fall in love with, but if you're all alone it makes no difference. Your gender identity still matters even when you're not with anyone. You can be at the Vostok Station and still be brought to tears by a stranger staring back at you in the mirror instead of yourself.

Me: "If you have the wrong genitalia, then you probably don't want to be reminded of them or use them any more than you absolutely have to, but that's it."

You: "Oh please. Rub penis, fluid comes out and you feel happy. Rub pussy, fluid comes out, and you feel happy. I find it really hard to believe that it is "within the range of normal" to feel so dissociated from one's body."

You contradict this gross oversimplification of human sexual needs yourself when you say that gay sex didn't do it for you. Clearly, people have psychological as well as physical needs.

"I hope you do recall a time in your own development when you were pre-sexualized, and just a kid."

I remember a few occasions before puberty, if that's what you mean. I remember, for instance, being at some party, and some other child asks me what my name is, so I tell him. He explains to me that he asked because he couldn't tell my sex, and I wished I'd lied to him about my name at that point, or at least not said anything. Things weren't so bad then, as without the devastating effects of T (as devastating as oestrogen is for trans men), all it took for me to pass for cissexual was to grow my hair long. I didn't really worry about my body then, as far as I remember. I just programmed and the like.

"But I would find it very hard to believe that a kid could look down at his penis or her vagina and feel deep loathing and a sense of dissociation."

There are plenty of transgender children, so the evidence directly contradicts this notion of yours. This is exactly what we would expect given that people are born transgender.

"Besides, gender as it's popularly conceived is a construct, anyway. We get fed most of that stuff as we're growing up, about macho men and feminine women, etc."

Be careful not to conflate gender roles (which are arbitrary social constructs) with gender identity (the brain's neurological sex, and the resulting innate sense of who you are).

"I'm sure you also know that sexual differentiation happens late in fetal development"

And I'm sure you also know that the brain's sex and the rest of the foetus's sex are developed several months apart, which I already said in my original post, if memory serves.

"I don't even think I really thought about having a male or female body when I was a kid."

Most cissexuals don't. See my previous clothes analogy. If you never had to wear clothes that don't fit you, you probably wouldn't have really thought about wearing clothes either. It's just something you're privileged enough to take for granted.

"...get fake boobs..."

Not that it's any of your business, but my breasts are real, as are those of every transsexual woman I've met.

"...mutilating one's body..."

I do wish you'd stop calling surgery mutilation. Petty insults don't do your case, such as it is, any favours.

"I think that it's too much ado being made about something rather minor,"

Yes. I'm kind of curious why you're making so much of it, to be honest. Personally, I'd rather answer people's sincere questions than your hostile attacks, educating a few people about a much maligned minority group, then get back to talking about polymeters, transitioning to different sections, and wiring up patches.

"...cut off their dicks..."

See my previous point about petty insults. If you're against some surgery, you should at least learn what that surgery entails instead of incorrectly guessing.

"Incidentally, what about eunuchs?"

As far as I understand it, they're men who are castrated (I have no idea if they consent to this or not, it sounds like an odd thing to consent to) in order to guard a harem of women. This sounds to me like a particularly barbaric practice all around, not least of which because it objectifies women into trophies.

"You have a lovely, functional body, the one you were born in. Why not respect it?"

Are you religious by any chance? One of the Abrahamic ones? You're certainly not a transhumanist, despite your claims to the contrary...

 

Anyway, since transitioning I learned to love myself. I look after myself just fine, thanks for your concern. Unlike you, I also love and respect my brain, enough to house it in suitable accommodation.

"has any m2f transexual ever taken more testosterone, to correct this theorized imbalance and become non-trans? Wonder if anyone has ever been bold enough to try that direction, and see if leads to a change in thinking. Seems much easier than going the opposite way."

For the sake of not burdening society with the sight of transgender people who have switched hormones, historically many "bold directions" were attempted. While my transgender history is a little shaky because it's so utterly depressing, I believe it did indeed include this, along with electric shock therapy, lobotomies, and various other attempted cures, none of which worked. You know which last resort cure did work? The one Magnus Hirschfeld pioneered at the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft, before the Nazis destroyed his work as part of their LGBT purging.

 

I would (and do) argue that changing who someone is in order to avoid them looking unsightly to you is grossly unethical. People are more important than their bodies. For all I know, you'd make a better looking woman than a man, but I respect your right to not be forced to appear as the opposite sex. I'd hope you'd extend me the same courtesy, as the alternative is frankly barbaric. In a story I once wrote, I depicted a hypothetical future in which transsexualism could be identified at birth and someone's neurological sex could be altered surgically. I have to warn you, it's a depressing tale.

"...who am I to argue with that."

Who indeed.

Anyway, I'm glad you're reading the white papers at least, so please, devour the ones I linked to earlier: http://aebrain.blogspot.co.uk/p/transsexual-and-intersex-gender-identity.html

 

TL;DR: Calm down. Nobody is going to "cut your dick off". Just like gay marriage, no one's making it compulsory.

[lumpenprol]

 

 

I would (and do) argue that changing who someone is in order to avoid them looking unsightly to you is grossly unethical.

I never said that. As I said, I'm totally cool with cross-dressing. I don't give an eff about physical appearance (much...of course I have beauty standards as much as the next person).

 

I could go point by point, but my general (admittedly visceral) reaction is when someone comes to me and says "this is what I am, the real me, take it or leave it!" (as in the case of homosexuals coming out of the closet) I go "right on!"...but when someone says "this is what I'm not, I need to take hormones and have surgery to become what I truly am" it seems pretty weird. I may be gradually coming round but it's a bit of a tough one. I find it hard to get around the idea of "why not just dress and act like a woman but keep your nice genitals?"

 

Regarding the point on hormones, I just didn't like the way you were characterizing "T" as some nasty interloper chemical intent on ruining your life and fogging your brain. That's simply very hard to credit, which is why I mentioned that men and women have both hormones (for example, testosterone pills serves as the "female viagra", who would have thunk?). You may not have liked facial hair or a deep voice, but that's hardly reason to vilify testosterone as "fogging your brain" or "retarding your emotions." Maybe you feel it did but it sounds like exaggeration, as I am a man, presumably with elevated levels of testosterone, but still find it possible to love my family and occasionally, cry at movies.

 

Anyhoo...I'm not religious...not really a trans-humanist either, as I think we're a long way off from being able to pull that off successfully, and I don't fervently dream for a post-human world (though I have said I wouldn't mind trying a week or longer in a female body if I could pull a switcheroo). I have a deep abiding belief in our ties to the natural world, and to our mental health being linked to our relationship with the natural world. Not quite ready to be amish yet, but naturally distrustful of the wonders of modern technology (even as I work as a vfx professional and type this on my computer). Am quite skeptical about new movements in general, whether they be social, political, technological...

 

Anyway, this vid and others like it make me quite intrigued by the topic. Can't accuse kids of having an agenda, unless their parents put them up to it, and it certainly doesn't seem to be the case:

[ZoeB]

I'm not saying that nobody's able to think clearly on male levels of hormones. I'm saying women in particular are unable to think clearly on male levels of hormones, and men in particular are unable to think clearly on female levels of hormones. See my previous link to a support group for cissexual men who took antiandrogens without realising the consequences they would have on their brain.

 

> "why not just dress and act like a woman but keep your nice genitals?"

 

I realise you yourself can't imagine it being that big a deal if your body is the wrong sex for you, day after day, for a whole lifetime. You'll just have to accept that people who have actually experienced it firsthand in real life, not in a hypothetical thought experiment, have either changed their sex to match their brain at the risk of losing their friends, family, job and home, or killed themselves. Even though you personally can't picture it being bad, this would suggest that in actuality, it is.

 

A hypothetical thought experiment doesn't trump real life. As I've said before, if you want to prove to me that you don't care which hormones you're on, you'd have to switch hormones for several months. But I'd very strongly advise against that, as I don't share your optimism for how you'd get on with oestrogen or a lack of testosterone.

 

In short, I really wouldn't argue with someone about something you have very little knowledge about, they have firsthand experience about, and the statistics and science back them up on. This is more meant to be a nice opportunity for people to learn than try to convince someone their medical history is in some way invalid.

[ZoeB]

I find it interesting that one of the most famous transgender people besides Chaz bono in a public spotlight is barely identified as such, even though his lawyer brought it up in the pre-trial hearing. When Bradley Manning joined the military he started struggling with his gender identity, and in his private chats with Adrian Lamo basically said he is trapped in the wrong body and that the army would never accept his kind.

 

That's a good point. As tempted as I am to refer to Manning as such, as the chat logs suggest Manning may well be transgender, close supporters suggest still considering Manning to be cisgender, at least for now. It feels odd to me too, but we need to respect Manning's wishes.

[Carlos Danger]

This thread sickens me you cisgender bigots all need to check your privilege JFC

[lumpenprol]

Anthony's weiner must be the crowning triumph of gender reassignment surgery

[Carlos Danger]

Anthony's weiner must be the crowning triumph of gender reassignment surgery

 

Listen, as a life-long diehard Liberal I'm offended that the cisgendered people out there think that they are somehow the default configuration for humans.

 

They aren't.

 

That's why god created men who love women, women who love men, men who love men, women who love women, men who are women, women who are men and men who love children.

 

All these identities are sacred and equally normal.

[SR4]

any wikipedia links to help corroborate your position?

 

 

i mean, without at least, say....15 links to wikipedia, i don't think any of us can believe you.

[delet...]

dupe alert !!

[Guest zaphod]

one of my friends from high school is transgendered, mtf. she ended up living on my couch for about six months while she tried to find a job after moving up here. i have to admit, my immediate reaction when surgery, hormone therapy or any other artificial process is involved in something that is ultimately a part of one's self actualization is a visceral "you shouldn't do this to yourself, you don't need to". this friend would have her girlfriend over (explain that one to me, a lesbian stuck in a man's body, lol) and we'd always end up arguing about whether the costly transformation she was taking on was strictly necessary. this friend couldn't find a job, would argue about the smallest things, wasn't at all appreciative of the fact that i was letting her free load without asking for a penny, and seemed very, very unhappy. i've had a girlfriend who was diagnosed bipolar, and this was basically like living with her. if i'm being completely honest, i think her entire "gender identity crisis" was a result of a much deeper depression. i had to walk on eggshells with her at all times, as anything could be misconstrued as an attempt to debase her self actualization, and that's what bothered me. everything was about the "self". our arguments were very similar to arguments with extremely religious people about their faith. "you'll just have to believe that i'm not in the right body" began to sound suspiciously like "you'll just have to believe that god spoke to me". i have yet to see any science backing up the idea that gender is somehow a priori and separate from biochemistry. i would love to see some info on this. i am completely open to it, but i find it incredibly hard to believe. maybe you're born into a body whose biochemistry thinks it's the wrong gender? i guess i could see where this is possible. but where i'm very happy when someone comes out and finds strength in identifying as gay, i find there's a distinct sadness to trans people. it doesn't seem empowered to me.

[ZoeB]

Sorry to hear your friend was so depressed, though given what she's been through and where she was at at the time, that seems somewhat understandable... It was nice of you to let her stay with you for so long.

 

"explain that one to me, a lesbian stuck in a man's body"

Who you are and who you're attracted to are entirely unrelated. All combinations are possible. See the genderbread person.

"we'd always end up arguing about whether the costly transformation she was taking on was strictly necessary"

It was. Being perceived as and having to live as the opposite sex to who you are is something I wouldn't wish upon anyone.

Regarding her being very sensitive about the whole issue, again that's somewhat understandable, but realise we're not all like that.

"i have yet to see any science backing up the idea that gender is somehow a priori and separate from biochemistry. i would love to see some info on this."

Well it's caused by biochemistry, it's not separate from it. I have a female brain because that's the way it was made when I was a foetus. If you're into science, check out Zoë Brain's stack of white papers on the subject, it makes for a pretty interesting read.

"but where i'm very happy when someone comes out and finds strength in identifying as gay, i find there's a distinct sadness to trans people. it doesn't seem empowered to me."

Well being transgender is inherently more depressing than being gay (I'd know, being both), as it involves several aspects of your body being fundamentally wrong for you, whereas being gay doesn't involve anything bad outside of contemporary society's prejudices. In many ways, it's more like a medical condition than a sexuality (it's not a sexuality, but it's like one in terms of people's prejudices), although it gets politicised and is somewhat tricky to classify. It's also a few decades behind gaiety in terms of people's acceptance, as much of this thread shows.

 

Yeah, there's not much empowering about being anything really, only about how you deal with it and help others who have dealt with it.

[lumpenprol]

one of my friends from high school is transgendered, mtf. she ended up living on my couch for about six months while she tried to find a job after moving up here. i have to admit, my immediate reaction when surgery, hormone therapy or any other artificial process is involved in something that is ultimately a part of one's self actualization is a visceral "you shouldn't do this to yourself, you don't need to". this friend would have her girlfriend over (explain that one to me, a lesbian stuck in a man's body, lol) and we'd always end up arguing about whether the costly transformation she was taking on was strictly necessary. this friend couldn't find a job, would argue about the smallest things, wasn't at all appreciative of the fact that i was letting her free load without asking for a penny, and seemed very, very unhappy. i've had a girlfriend who was diagnosed bipolar, and this was basically like living with her. if i'm being completely honest, i think her entire "gender identity crisis" was a result of a much deeper depression. i had to walk on eggshells with her at all times, as anything could be misconstrued as an attempt to debase her self actualization, and that's what bothered me. everything was about the "self". our arguments were very similar to arguments with extremely religious people about their faith. "you'll just have to believe that i'm not in the right body" began to sound suspiciously like "you'll just have to believe that god spoke to me". i have yet to see any science backing up the idea that gender is somehow a priori and separate from biochemistry. i would love to see some info on this. i am completely open to it, but i find it incredibly hard to believe. maybe you're born into a body whose biochemistry thinks it's the wrong gender? i guess i could see where this is possible. but where i'm very happy when someone comes out and finds strength in identifying as gay, i find there's a distinct sadness to trans people. it doesn't seem empowered to me.

similar to what I was saying, probably more succinctly put.

 

Could her emotional lability have been caused by hormone treatment? I wonder about that, people often talk about athletes who dope getting "'roid rage", stands to reason that people taking hormones, or chemicals that block hormones, for different reasons might have similar reactions. I do wonder if we really know all the effects (and future side-effects) these chemicals have. If hormone replacement therapy for women past menopause has come under fire for causing cancer and whatever else, I can only imagine what risks a lifetime of hormone doping carries with it.

 

I was thinking today how funny it is that many people get outraged over female genital mutilation in Subsaharan Africa, but doing something (arguably) similar voluntarily is seen as self-actualization. Of course the voluntary part is the key, but still...

 

I've already blabbed a bunch in this thread. I believe pretty strongly that sexuality at its best should be playful, not politicized or solemn. If doing these procedures really leads some/most transgender folks to happiness, and sexual satisfaction, then hey...

 

I do wonder how many transgender people are just unusually willful, not willing to accept the "tyranny of dna". I mean, I look in the mirror at my ordinary dick, or balding head, or moobs, and get a bit bummed out, but I've never been one (yet) to get hair plugs, lipo, or penile enlargement. I could say it's because I'm not vain enough, but one person's vanity is another's self-actualization. In the case of penile enlargement, I also happen to know it doesn't work and leads to complications...I'm sure the same is true for transgender surgery...which makes me again wonder why anyone would go through with it (I guess maybe if they'd never had an orgasm before so don't know what they're missing)...maybe M2F works a bit better, if they can get that little forlorn bit of mashed-up foreskin to behave something like a clitoris...but F2M is hopeless...give it another 50-100 yrs of tech development, I guess...

 

*fights urge to ask Zoe B all sorts of direct questions about her sexual functioning...*

[RichieBees]

do transppl dream of robotic sheep

[ZoeB]

"Could her emotional lability have been caused by hormone treatment?"

Not really, no. Oestrogen allows women to have a full complement of emotions, but it doesn't exactly make you unstable.

 

"people often talk about athletes who dope getting "'roid rage", stands to reason that people taking hormones, or chemicals that block hormones, for different reasons might have similar reactions"

The way I understand it, although there's a sliding scale of how much testosterone, androgen, oestrogen and/or progesterone you have in your system, with testosterone (not sure about the others) it reaches a certain threshold that only guys have that amount of, then basically flips a boolean switch, to cause things like facial hair, voice dropping to a man's level, etc. Above that, having more testosterone doesn't make much of a difference until you get a crazily unsafe amount in your system, then it gets really dangerous fast. This is what happens with bodybuilders who do steroids, from what I understand.

 

Remember, we're talking about replacing hormones for one sex with hormones for another, not sticking with the first sex's hormones then spiking them to unnatural, dangerous levels that the body can't properly cope with.

"I was thinking today how funny it is that many people get outraged over female genital mutilation in Subsaharan Africa, but doing something (arguably) similar voluntarily is seen as self-actualization. Of course the voluntary part is the key, but still..."

Yes, the voluntary part is key. Similarly, I get outraged over rape, but not consensual sex. I find it curious how people seem so against what's essentially constructive surgery when it's on a body part that's not right for your brain, but in contrast seem just fine with what's essentially also constructive surgery when it's on a deformation of the body that they themselves also wouldn't want. For example, no one's told me I was unethical to have my keloids somewhat removed (or at least vastly tidied) by surgeons on the NHS.

 

It sounds like the typical mind fallacy at work again: because your genitalia are right for you, you can't imagine that someone else's aren't right for them, and that they need to have them fixed just as much as you need to not have yours broken. Ironically, if it really wasn't a big deal and was something you could live with, as people tend to ignorantly claim, you wouldn't be making such a big deal out of it yourselves, being against what other people are doing with their own bodies.

 

"I've already blabbed a bunch in this thread. I believe pretty strongly that sexuality at its best should be playful, not politicized or solemn. If doing these procedures really leads some/most transgender folks to happiness, and sexual satisfaction, then hey."

It would be great to not have to politicise these things, and once everyone has the human rights they need, we should find it easier to just get on with these things without much fuss. And yes, we established earlier that fixing your body in this regard leads to a stellar satisfaction rating.

 

Again, remember that whether your neurological sex and the rest of your body's physical sex match up or not is not a sexuality. I don't get off of being me. I'm just me, the same as everyone else.

"I do wonder how many transgender people are just unusually willful, not willing to accept the "tyranny of dna". I mean, I look in the mirror at my ordinary dick, or balding head, or moobs, and get a bit bummed out, but I've never been one (yet) to get hair plugs, lipo, or penile enlargement. I could say it's because I'm not vain enough, but one person's vanity is another's self-actualization. In the case of penile enlargement, I also happen to know it doesn't work and leads to complications...I'm sure the same is true for transgender surgery...which makes me again wonder why anyone would go through with it (I guess maybe if they'd never had an orgasm before so don't know what they're missing)...maybe M2F works a bit better, if they can get that little forlorn bit of mashed-up foreskin to behave something like a clitoris...but F2M is hopeless...give it another 50-100 yrs of tech development, I guess..."

 

Again, you're confusing necessary reconstructive surgery with frivolous plastic surgery. I have tiny breasts, but I don't feel the need to have them surgically altered. I'm glad I have breasts. I'm sure surgical improvements could be made to my face, but again, what's the point? It's all fully functional. Like most people, I don't feel a need to look "perfect", whatever that could possibly mean anyway. I just need to look correct, to match up with what my brain's expecting. I don't need to look like the prettiest woman in the world. (I don't even wear makeup these days.) I just need to look like the woman I am.

 

Again, you really shouldn't talk about things you haven't researched. The clit isn't made out of foreskin. Go and look it up if you're that interested. You may be surprised at how good the results are. (Generally, people can't tell.)

 

"*fights urge to ask Zoe B all sorts of direct questions about her sexual functioning...*"

There's not much to tell. It works, I'm happy, which is more than I can say about beforehand.

Again, if you try to imagine why a man would want to be a woman or vice versa, you're not going to understand transsexualism because that's not what it is. If you instead try to imagine why a man would want to appear as such and vice versa, then it all makes complete sense.