Transgender

[marf]

Transgender Navy SEAL tells of private battle living as a man

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/macho_us_hero_now_warrior_princess_kkCHzGOO1W1pMrit8MAFBP

[pcock]

my opinion is dull, same as everything, if you arent harming anyone you should do exactly what you want to do.

[Guest Rambo]

Homosexuality was once considered a disorder and not an integral part of one's identity.

 

 

This issue is very similar in that regard.

 

At the risk of being offensive (not intentional) is homosexuality technically a disorder? I could see how it would be considered one. I dont think the world would be a better place if everyone was heterosexual or anything so you could call it a disorder that doesn't actually matter, but is it one?

[LimpyLoo]

 

Homosexuality was once considered a disorder and not an integral part of one's identity.

 

 

This issue is very similar in that regard.

being gay is being who you are while being transgender is being who you aren't, the issues couldn't be more different in that regard

 

Firstly, I don't understand what you mean or why you mention it.

 

Secondly, I was talking about how the two issues were regarded socially and psychiatrically , that's all.

 

Homosexuality was once considered a disorder and not an integral part of one's identity.

 

 

This issue is very similar in that regard.

 

At the risk of being offensive (not intentional) is homosexuality technically a disorder? I could see how it would be considered one. I dont think the world would be a better place if everyone was heterosexual or anything so you could call it a disorder that doesn't actually matter, but is it one?

 

please read my statement carefully. "Homosexuality was once considered a disorder."

[Guest Rambo]

Yeah i caught it the first time champ. Who was it once regarded a disorder by and when was it officially announced to be not a disorder by the scientific community?

[LimpyLoo]

Yeah i caught it the first time champ. Who was it once regarded a disorder by and when was it officially announced to be not a disorder by the scientific community?

 

From Wikipedia:

 

"In 1952, when the American Psychiatric Association published its first Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, homosexuality was included as a disorder..."

 

 

And then of course there's society at large.

[LimpyLoo]

edit: "In recognition of the scientific evidence,^[138] the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from the DSM in 1973, stating that "homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities." After thoroughly reviewing the scientific data, the American Psychological Association adopted the same position in 1975, and urged all mental health professionals "to take the lead in removing the stigma of mental illness that has long been associated with homosexual orientations." The National Association of Social Workers has adopted a similar policy."

[SR4]

Transgender Navy SEAL tells of private battle living as a man

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/macho_us_hero_now_warrior_princess_kkCHzGOO1W1pMrit8MAFBP

 

 

jesus. i can only imagine how fucked up a situation like that would be during military service.

[Hoodie]

edit: "In recognition of the scientific evidence,^[138] the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from the DSM in 1973, stating that "homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities." After thoroughly reviewing the scientific data, the American Psychological Association adopted the same position in 1975, and urged all mental health professionals "to take the lead in removing the stigma of mental illness that has long been associated with homosexual orientations." The National Association of Social Workers has adopted a similar policy."

 

psychologists recognize things as disorders when they create functional impairment--that is, when the people with the condition cannot function in daily life, if it affects their relationships with other people, if it prevents them from engaging in activities that would like to do, if it creates suffering, etc. mental disorders aren't black and white. there is no cut-off we can use one hundred percent of the time to determine whether or not something is a disorder.

 

gender identity disorder is regarded as a disorder because it does create suffering in the people who feel that they are stuck in the wrong body. they have extremely high rates of suicide. their quality of life improves immensely after hormone therapy and surgical procedures. at that point, we can say that they're no longer suffering from a disorder. so yeah, i think it should stay in the DSM.

[Guest Rambo]

I think i maybe need to consider terminology some more. You see, i would have said previously that a disorder wouldn't necessarily have to be a negative.

[awepittance]

 

Transgender Navy SEAL tells of private battle living as a man

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/macho_us_hero_now_warrior_princess_kkCHzGOO1W1pMrit8MAFBP

 

 

jesus. i can only imagine how fucked up a situation like that would be during military service.

 

now imagine going through a gender transition while facing the death penalty in a closed military tribunal...

 

[Hoodie]

I think i maybe need to consider terminology some more. You see, i would have said previously that a disorder wouldn't necessarily have to be a negative.

 

i think "abnormality" would be a better word for what you're thinking of.

[SR4]

 

 

Transgender Navy SEAL tells of private battle living as a man

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/macho_us_hero_now_warrior_princess_kkCHzGOO1W1pMrit8MAFBP

 

 

jesus. i can only imagine how fucked up a situation like that would be during military service.

 

now imagine going through a gender transition while facing the death penalty in a closed military tribunal...

 

 

 

pretty bad?

[awepittance]

i also think it's important to point out that most people who identify as transgender do not get sexual reassignment surgery. Hormone therapy is very commonplace and breast implants for m 2 f transitions are as well, but actual genital reassignment is more rare.

[eh Speedy]

It's normal to feel uncomfortable when learning that you're strongly held beliefs about what makes a guy and a girl, are wrong. It's like all the lessons that you've learned about boys and girls since you were a child are being thrown in your face, and so understandably it's could make you freak out a bit when it comes to the subject of acceptance.

[Guest A/D]

Transgender Navy SEAL tells of private battle living as a man

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/macho_us_hero_now_warrior_princess_kkCHzGOO1W1pMrit8MAFBP

Amazing. Talk about breaking male and female stereotypes.

[eh Speedy]

Transgender Navy SEAL tells of private battle living as a man

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/macho_us_hero_now_warrior_princess_kkCHzGOO1W1pMrit8MAFBP

 

This doesn't surprise me. Many male-to-female transwomen swing the complete opposite direction and go ultra masculine while growing to try and cover up and deny their feminine nature, so you get these Navy Seals and Marines and stuff coming out. Then one day they finally break when realize the feeling is never going to go away, and they come out to everyone.

 

If someone can be born a male and have a brain that is attracted to men (and you can understand that this is totally natural) , then why could there not be a person born physically male but have a feminine brain? Doctors can't change the nature of the brain (which would be a silly dark ages rehabilitation approach anyway - and by dark ages I mean the present as well), so the only real thing they can do is present themselves as femme or masculine. There's a large scale of varying degrees to which trans people chose to transition or not transition. Some only dress differently. Some take hormones but have no surgery. Some do everything they can to change, surgery and hormones included. It's all a matter of what each person believes and how far they want to take it, because I believe the gender identity feeling varies in strength one way or another from person to person. It's more like a big grey area scale.

 

What was formally called Gender Identity Disorder in the DSM is now called Gender Dysphoria. At the same time this change was being made, many LGBT groups were working to get it removed from the Manual all together viewing it not as a "problem". Others fought to keep it in as an issue so that their medical insurance could be used to pay for the transition.

[Guest RadarJammer]

 

 

Homosexuality was once considered a disorder and not an integral part of one's identity.

 

 

This issue is very similar in that regard.

being gay is being who you are while being transgender is being who you aren't, the issues couldn't be more different in that regard

 

Firstly, I don't understand what you mean or why you mention it.

 

Secondly, I was talking about how the two issues were regarded socially and psychiatrically , that's all.

i mention it because the sexuality aspect isn't what interests or bothers me about transgenderism so I don't believe that parallel relates to my train of thought on the subject and the things I've said in this thread.

 

my mind is probably just evenly balanced between masculine and feminine so I can't properly imagine mentally feeling like a male or a female, i just feel like a mind and feel like identifying too much with one or the other is an aberration and not a state of being that should be catered to.

[lumpenprol]

 

Transgender Navy SEAL tells of private battle living as a man

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/macho_us_hero_now_warrior_princess_kkCHzGOO1W1pMrit8MAFBP

 

This doesn't surprise me. Many male-to-female transwomen swing the complete opposite direction and go ultra masculine while growing to try and cover up and deny their feminine nature, so you get these Navy Seals and Marines and stuff coming out. Then one day they finally break when realize the feeling is never going to go away, and they come out to everyone.

 

If someone can be born a male and have a brain that is attracted to men (and you can understand that this is totally natural) , then why could there not be a person born physically male but have a feminine brain? Doctors can't change the nature of the brain (which would be a silly dark ages rehabilitation approach anyway - and by dark ages I mean the present as well), so the only real thing they can do is present themselves as femme or masculine. There's a large scale of varying degrees to which trans people chose to transition or not transition. Some only dress differently. Some take hormones but have no surgery. Some do everything they can to change, surgery and hormones included. It's all a matter of what each person believes and how far they want to take it, because I believe the gender identity feeling varies in strength one way or another from person to person. It's more like a big grey area scale.

 

I think the main problem some of us are having is that 1) hormone therapy and surgically messing with your genitals seems like self-harm, and self-harm by definition is not psychologically healthy, and 2) (and this may just be me), it all seems quite overblown in the sense that you don't hear women in burkas saying "if I don't get to wear lipstick, I'm going to kill myself". I honestly have trouble grasping and believing this statistic about the rate of suicide or self-harm amongst transgender folks. It's like, is feeling like you're stuck in the wrong body really that horrible? There are plenty of flat-chested women who wish they had big breasts, I doubt they commit suicide over it. I'm fat and wish I had the physique of Arnold Schwarzenegger, but I'm not going to kill myself over it. I'm curious if the rate of suicide is truly higher than among gay men, as it seems the main psychological stressors are at about the same level, ie, getting hate from ignorant folks.

[LimpyLoo]

 

 

 

Homosexuality was once considered a disorder and not an integral part of one's identity.

 

 

This issue is very similar in that regard.

being gay is being who you are while being transgender is being who you aren't, the issues couldn't be more different in that regard

 

Firstly, I don't understand what you mean or why you mention it.

 

Secondly, I was talking about how the two issues were regarded socially and psychiatrically , that's all.

i mention it because the sexuality aspect isn't what interests or bothers me about transgenderism so I don't believe that parallel relates to my train of thought on the subject and the things I've said in this thread.

 

 

 

 

I feel like you're not reading what I'm writing.

 

I wasn't talking about the sexuality aspect. I was drawing a parallel about the way it's regarded socially and psychiatrically.

 

(Luckily my original statement is contained in this post so it can be easily referenced)

[Guest Rambo]

 

I think i maybe need to consider terminology some more. You see, i would have said previously that a disorder wouldn't necessarily have to be a negative.

 

i think "abnormality" would be a better word for what you're thinking of.

 

 

Yeah i think it is.

[Guest Iain C]

 

 

Transgender Navy SEAL tells of private battle living as a man

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/macho_us_hero_now_warrior_princess_kkCHzGOO1W1pMrit8MAFBP

 

This doesn't surprise me. Many male-to-female transwomen swing the complete opposite direction and go ultra masculine while growing to try and cover up and deny their feminine nature, so you get these Navy Seals and Marines and stuff coming out. Then one day they finally break when realize the feeling is never going to go away, and they come out to everyone.

 

If someone can be born a male and have a brain that is attracted to men (and you can understand that this is totally natural) , then why could there not be a person born physically male but have a feminine brain? Doctors can't change the nature of the brain (which would be a silly dark ages rehabilitation approach anyway - and by dark ages I mean the present as well), so the only real thing they can do is present themselves as femme or masculine. There's a large scale of varying degrees to which trans people chose to transition or not transition. Some only dress differently. Some take hormones but have no surgery. Some do everything they can to change, surgery and hormones included. It's all a matter of what each person believes and how far they want to take it, because I believe the gender identity feeling varies in strength one way or another from person to person. It's more like a big grey area scale.

 

I think the main problem some of us are having is that 1) hormone therapy and surgically messing with your genitals seems like self-harm, and self-harm by definition is not psychologically healthy, and 2) (and this may just be me), it all seems quite overblown in the sense that you don't hear women in burkas saying "if I don't get to wear lipstick, I'm going to kill myself". I honestly have trouble grasping and believing this statistic about the rate of suicide or self-harm amongst transgender folks. It's like, is feeling like you're stuck in the wrong body really that horrible? There are plenty of flat-chested women who wish they had big breasts, I doubt they commit suicide over it. I'm fat and wish I had the physique of Arnold Schwarzenegger, but I'm not going to kill myself over it. I'm curious if the rate of suicide is truly higher than among gay men, as it seems the main psychological stressors are at about the same level, ie, getting hate from ignorant folks.

 

 

This is such a staggeringly ignorant post, it's difficult to know where to start. So let's start at the beginning

 

 

I think the main problem some of us are having is that 1) hormone therapy and surgically messing with your genitals seems like self-harm, and self-harm by definition is not psychologically healthy

I suppose this attitude comes from a fear and disgust at the thought of losing your own penis. You like yours so much, and it's such a fundamental part of your identity, that you can't imagine why ANYBODY would want rid of theirs. First: don't worry, nobody's trying to take your penis away. Second: this kind of treatment is actually NOT in any way akin to self harm. Beyond the most superficial resemblance the analogy just doesn't hold water. For a start, self harm is a symptom, usually a recurring one, not a treatment, of an ongoing psychological problem. Nobody actually feels long-term relief or wellness because they self harmed. SRS is the opposite - it's a treatment. People who undergo it generally feel better afterwards - actually better, not the short-term stress release people get from self-harming.

 

But it seems like mutilation to you. So, are the breast implants you mention later in your post mutilation? Of course not. While the motivations for having them are generally very different from the motivations for SRS, it provides a FAR better analogy than self-harm. And what about hormones? I know a couple of people who didn't grow properly in puberty and had hormone injections to stimulate it. Is that self-mutilation? What about my old mum, who went on hormone replacement therapy to ward off osteoperosis in her middle age? Self-mutilation? No, they're treatments.

 

There's more to say but I need to go to work, I'll pick this up a little later.

[Guest Iain C]

Bit more:

 

2) (and this may just be me), it all seems quite overblown in the sense that you don't hear women in burkas saying "if I don't get to wear lipstick, I'm going to kill myself".

 

Okay, while I really dont want to turn this thread into another shitstorm about Muslims, I really cant see why youve brought this up here. Its an even more ridiculous comparison than the idea that SRS is self-harm. Why assume that any woman in a burka feels worse about her situation than a trans person? When did their experience become the universal yardstick for measuring human oppression? Believe it or not, their lives are not a carousel of unending misery. Some of them even DO wear makeup, I know this is going to be hard to believe, but its true.

 

Even granting the assumption that women in burkas have it worse somehow, does this now mean that any suffering of a lesser degree should just shut up and deal with it?

 

But really, its a pointless line of enquiry, because it casts suffering or whatever you want to call it as a linear scale these people have it bad, but these people have it slightly worse, and these being further along the scale have it worst of all. Which is a boneheaded way of looking at something as various and diverse as human misery.

 

Also, youre casting suicide as a flippant decision taken for very superficial reasons. Its not. Its symptomatic of complicated and manifold influences, illnesses, stresses and provocations.

 

I honestly have trouble grasping and believing this statistic about the rate of suicide or self-harm amongst transgender folks. It's like, is feeling like you're stuck in the wrong body really that horrible? There are plenty of flat-chested women who wish they had big breasts, I doubt they commit suicide over it. I'm fat and wish I had the physique of Arnold Schwarzenegger, but I'm not going to kill myself over it.

There are two objectionable points here, first this flippant view of suicide as an act with one immediate cause (it almost never is) and secondly another ill-informed analogy between you not wanting to be fat and the trans experience. I shouldnt have to point out that being fat, or having small breasts, is far more socially acceptable than being openly trans. For a start, the scale of the aggressions and misunderstandings faced are not even remotely comparable. Second, its not the same thing at all. It goes way beyond having the right body its about being referred to and treated by people appropriately for your gender, and being able to live your life how you like without facing aggression, mistrust and violence for it.

 

Fuck, Ive put on a fair bit of weight in the past couple of years. Id love to have a flat stomach again. But read any account from a trans person of how it actually feels, and youll see its not a remotely accurate comparison, and the difference isnt even a question of degree its something completely different.

 

I'm curious if the rate of suicide is truly higher than among gay men, as it seems the main psychological stressors are at about the same level, ie, getting hate from ignorant folks.

Finally, youre grasping towards what might actually be a decent point. While suicide is always a complicated act with many causes, youre actually right I think that the reason the trans* suicide rate is so high IS in large part due to the hate and ignorance they face from the rest of society. But what youre missing is that actually, in the west today, its FAR more socially acceptable to be a gay man (particularly a white gay man) than it is to be trans. You can see this in the way mainstream gay rights organisations (like Stonewall here in the UK) refuse to campaign on transgender issues any more.

 

Things are by no means perfect for gay men, but theyve come a long way in the past couple of decades. Recognition and respect for trans people is lagging far behind.

[Guest Iain C]

Wrote that post in word, it's fucked up a lot of my punctuation, but you get the point.

[Candiru]

It's much easier to understand why a person who was born hermaphroditic and whose parents were forced to make a decision on their sex would have these problems. A relatively clear cut biological cause and there's practically no questions asked. How much of gender confusion is hormonal/psychological/both?

 

What really blows people's minds is the guy who's been married 15 years, has 3 kids, and finally admits he has to go through with everything. It only seems like an improvemement to him. You just have to take his word for it... unless you're the therapist evaluating him before he gets hormone treatment.