Energy!

[joshuatxuk]

Fuck it, I dont care.

 

rlol

[joshuatxuk]

I look forward to reading this in detail. It's nice to have a WATMMer who has insight on the industry. I've been under the impression that fracking has come a long way in terms of it's efficiency and management of impact on the environment. I'm going into land surveying so there's a good chance I'll be working at some point in the industry on that end, especially if I do contract jobs.

[sheatheman]

a japanese firm has a plan to put solar panels around the moon's equator and beam energy to earth with microwave and laser beams. they say they could start construction in 2035 and need funding. something like this seems like a good idea to me. i hope the laser and microwave beams wouldn't work out to be just as bad for global warming, though.

 

if it's feasible and happens then that could be it. this particular project claims to be able to provide over 1 terawatts, a million times that of a nuclear plant. it seems like after years of improving the gear the moon's solar power could be all the planet needs. the main problem could be the climatic one.

 

i've also read that the energy stored in an atom could power a city, if it could be unlocked. that brings up the problem of The Dark Knight Rises plot, though. g-men might show up, like you said, and sit you down in front of a projector and show you how that kind of power undeniably can not be made public because the risk of misuse is too great.

 

like i was saying in the livestock thread, the challenges facing us are psychological, idealogical, and sociological, not technological. how much more quickly and efficiently could we get a moon solar plant or some kind of alternative energy up and running if society weren't so... you know. i think the main problem is people asserting ideas that they don't know the basis of. so much discourse is nonsense.

 

Yeah, the energy in an atom could power a city, but it would probably destroy a city on the trial run. The gmen would calmly ask you once to give you their research and then one of them would draw the shades...

 

Sheatheman -- thanks for the kind response, I'm glad it seems like we see eye to eye on a lot of the details. I largely agree with you regarding individual responsibility, however, I would place greater emphasis on the responsibility of those who wield greater environmental/policy influence, does that make sense?

 

Yes.

 

 

my wife's hometown is pretty cool, her family lives in a small valley in rural china and they get all their energy needs from hydro. Sure the mini-dam may have altered things a bit but the river still flows and it doesn't seem to have done a huge amount of damage (still some fish in the river). anyway I've seen hydro projects before of course but never knowingly seen a seemingly self-sustaining little valley. Apart from the generators which I suppose can break down and need parts, it's kind of perfect.

 

If we can stabilize and even decrease our population, I could see a lot of small communities thriving like this, on natural waterways. It really doesn't seem to take much effort, just harnessing "nature's bounty".

 

Of course that doesn't solve the fossil fuel prob, but it makes the prospect of the entire world economy grinding to a halt seem much less frightening when you've got as much electricity as you can use, as much rice as you can eat, pigs, chickens and ducks, fruit growing on trees, etc.

That is an excellent model and one that we all should be thinking about. I think one of the main issues with over population is people sleeping around. I'm going to be a foster parent, maybe adopt. My wife grew up in foster care. The problem is our lack of value for life and resources has even extended to human life. If we really valued human life, we wouldn't create it lightly.

 

 

Fuck it, I dont care.

rlol

 

lol that's why i gave a vague response, i was suspicious. reminds me of a game i play sometimes. you ask someone a question about the topic that interests them the most, and let them drone on for 5 minutes, all the while feigning interest, and then interrupt them with an extremely loud "DDDUUUUUUUHHHHHHH!!!!!"

[chassis]

countries going to war over moon property is not unimaginable. to avoid that situation the un would hopefully establish a framework for developing the moon at the outset. given that the moon circles the planet, the moon stations would probably service multiple countries and it would be an international project.

Isnt there already a policy in place for the moon. No one can own it.

[may be rude]

ah yes the Outer Space Treaty of the United Nations Office for Outer Space Affairs

 

 

 

The Outer Space Treaty provides the basic framework on international space law, including the following principles:

• the exploration and use of outer space shall be carried out for the benefit and in the interests of all countries and shall be the province of all mankind;
• outer space shall be free for exploration and use by all States;
• outer space is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means;
• States shall not place nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction in orbit or on celestial bodies or station them in outer space in any other manner;
• the Moon and other celestial bodies shall be used exclusively for peaceful purposes;
• astronauts shall be regarded as the envoys of mankind;
• States shall be responsible for national space activities whether carried out by governmental or non-governmental entities;
• States shall be liable for damage caused by their space objects; and
• States shall avoid harmful contamination of space and celestial bodies.

[Adieu]

I also work in Oil and Gas in Texas, and I personally know a high level drill engineer. I have witnessed firsthand damaged environments from the production of oil and gas. There are areas of Texas you can drive through where the stench of Oil is so strong that it makes you feel a little sick. It is most definitely damaging the environment. I asked the drill engineer, "So, be straight up. Is fracking screwing up the environment?" He said, "Without a doubt." I have seen rows of oil wells so numerous that they break every inch of the horizon as far as you can see.

 

Here are water reports for three cities. They all have violations due to the industry. I take a water filter with me anywhere I work. Some cities they straight up tell you not to drink the water.

 

https://www.twdb.state.tx.us/groundwater/aquifer/majors/pecos-valley.asp

 

http://www.mybigspring.com/files/2009_Annual_Drinking_Water_Quality_Report.pdf

 

http://www.coloradocitytexas.org/DocumentCenter/View/952

 

I don't even want to be in the industry anymore, but for the moment I need the money. I want to get out as soon as possible. I feel a lot of guilt promoting this industry.

 

My personal beliefs are if the industry wasn't so powerful we would already be on different forms of energy for the most part. There is sooo much money in this industry. Everyone in the industry gets huge salaries. They can do whatever they please because they have an infinite supply of money.

[awepittance]

Fracking is necessary because Daniel Plainview already got all of the easy stuff.

don't you think that might not bode well for our future and current rate of energy consumption? Meaning the fact that we are taking such desperate measures to actually get energy sources out of the earth (fracking, tar sands extraction) and all the 'easy' stuff is gone seems to lend credence to the Peak oil theory or the more general 'peak energy' theory.

The only solution that I can see is for America and similar over-consuming nations to lower energy consumption. Is there a legitimate way out of this situation? Short of building a ton of new nuclear power reactors It's hard for me to see, and i'd argue that's a bad solution to maintain a network for the amount of energy being consumed

[goDel]

Being on different forms of energy? Could be me, but I'm seeing more and more different forms of energy being used every day. Apart from all the wind mills and solar power, the key indicator is imo what kind of energy is behind all those cars. I'm seeing electrics and hybrids on a daily basis, right now. And I'm noticing more and more parking lots with a loader (dont know how to call those things with which you can load the car batteries).

 

Perhaps this change towards more alternative energy forms isnt fast enough by your standards, but it's certainly there. And I don't see it developing in the opposite direction. If in the next 10 years one in four cars will be electric, the implications would be huge, imo. Hell, at that point I wouldn't be surprised if all the car manufacturers stopped making classic gasoline sucking cars.

[luke viia]

there is no way that 25% of cars will be electric by 2024. even if that were likely (if you have links supporting that claim im all ears) what makes you think that would somehow be significantly beneficial to the environment when compared with the amount of fossil fuels used by the 1 billion+ gas powered cars already existing on the planet? that number is projected to rise to 1.7 billion in the next ten years, btw.

 

and electric cars are predicted to move to about 7% of the global car market in the next decade.

[sheatheman]

there is no way that 25% of cars will be electric by 2024. even if that were likely (if you have links supporting that claim im all ears) what makes you think that would somehow be significantly beneficial to the environment when compared with the amount of fossil fuels used by the 1 billion+ gas powered cars already existing on the planet? that number is projected to rise to 1.7 billion in the next ten years, btw.

 

and electric cars are predicted to move to about 7% of the global car market in the next decade.

 

Plus, a lot of that electricity is generated through an infrastructure with fossil fuel as the basis. it's not like electricity sprouts out of the ground -- it is more often than not a dirty energy due to how it is produced.

 

And hybrids are no solution at all, since they rely on fossil fuel to charge the battery. funny thing is BMW had a hydrogen combustion engine and there were a few on the road in the $100k range.

[luke viia]

right, about 1/3 of grid energy is typically lost just in transfer alone (source to user). wish i had an online link for that statistic but i read it in a book last year, lol.

 

there are battery companies out there trying to focus on this issue but it's difficult and there isn't a lot of economic government support when compared to that given to oil and gas companies (in the US at least). i almost ended up working for a startup that is fixed on this issue and they are constantly fighting for private enterprise funding.

[sheatheman]

 

Fracking is necessary because Daniel Plainview already got all of the easy stuff.

don't you think that might not bode well for our future and current rate of energy consumption? Meaning the fact that we are taking such desperate measures to actually get energy sources out of the earth (fracking, tar sands extraction) and all the 'easy' stuff is gone seems to lend credence to the Peak oil theory or the more general 'peak energy' theory.

The only solution that I can see is for America and similar over-consuming nations to lower energy consumption. Is there a legitimate way out of this situation? Short of building a ton of new nuclear power reactors It's hard for me to see, and i'd argue that's a bad solution to maintain a network for the amount of energy being consumed

 

 

I know, it's crazy. Most of the world toils to feed the luxury of the west. China may cash in their chips in a few decades, but either way, it's insane that we have this crazy new science of fracking. it just bothers me when all of these people with all their plastic products and smartphones say "big oil is so evil fracking is the worst thing ever." We might as well complain about Foxconn through imessages. All are implicit unless you are homesteading.

 

I don't think there is legit way out. Globalism has too much momentum. We are all pushing towards the abyss, and it would take an equal or greater amount of pushing away from it to do any good. Even if we don't make it to the edge, the cliffside may crumble anyway.

[luke viia]

imo you are signing your own fate with that attitude; do you not at least push for more reasonable local and state legislation considering the problems you see?

[luke viia]

btw i share your sympathies about so-called environmentalists balking about fracking while fully absorbing the rest of the shittiness that is part of our modern life, buying new smart phones, uncritically accepting new technologies, believing that the government will take care of it (that's democracy right?) etc.

 

it's hard to feel like there's any hope for the environment but i don't want to give in to the attitude that we're on a path and that's that -- it's called "technological determinism" to me and it basically means we have no choice in the matter. let me just say fuck that.

[sheatheman]

The only thing that will snap the masses out of it is some form of collapse. Hopefully it will only take something small for things to start trending towards more self reliance, which is the only solution. Think about how many jobs are based upon selling someone something? Ever wonder where consumers get their money if half are working at walmart and the other half at wendy's?

 

I don't really believe in legislation. Don't you know that about me?

 

Edit: I love how Adieu lurking me has revived this thread. Thanks Adieu, I'll send you a Halliburton gift basket! I have tons of them!!!

[luke viia]

i did not know that about you. i don't really believe in apathy. ;)

 

kind of agree about collapse being necessary, guess i'm just still hopeful that people will get out of profit-mode before it's too late... hope seems more valuable than total resignation to collapse.

[luke viia]

btw, please stop personally cashing in on environmental destruction, both of you. would be much appreciated.

 

sincerely,

a fellow environmentalist

[sheatheman]

A collapsitarian hopes for collapse. The death of one structure giving birth to another, hopefully something more primitive. Not saying that's what I am.

 

I'm doing a lot though. Mostly vegan, I walk/take the bus/eat at home/recycle(haha)/leave my lights off most of the time/am considering canceling the internet. In the end it comes down to the individual making the right choices, and no legislation can make that happen. We need more compassion/selflessness.

[goDel]

Euh, I made a hypothetical if then statement. And I've got no numbers to back it up.

 

Personally, I believe it could be possible that 1in 4cars will be electric in the next ten years around here. Lots of cars on the road are leased, so there's more opportunity to change cars.

 

And again, if and i repeat if one in 4 cars in western society (or just europe?) is electric, i believe the implications might be huge. The implications are that there needs to be an entire network facilitating these electric cars ( just like all those gasoline stations). And behind such a network will be an economy of its own. Those cars also need to be built, right? At what point would you expect car manufacturers to make the business decision to stop producing gasoline cars? Despite there being plenty gasoline sucking cars on the road in the future, those manufacturers are looking to sell more new cars. Odds are, they will sell more electric cars than gasoline cars from that point on. (Yes, I believe that from the point where one in four cars on the road, the uptake of electric cars will accelerate. At one point, people will stop buying gasoline cars). So car manufacturers might be making the business decision to stop producing gasoline cars at that point.

 

And 1 in 4 cars NOT coughing up a bunch of smoke from burning gasoline wouldn't be a huge change? Huh!? What!? It might not be enough for your likings, but the change will be significant nevertheless.

[sheatheman]

btw, please stop personally cashing in on environmental destruction, both of you. would be much appreciated.

 

sincerely,

a fellow environmentalist

 

I'll stop cashing in once you stop handing me bills!

[luke viia]

shea: no, sorry, fully disagree. i said it earlier in this thread: this is an industry, economic, and political problem, and individuals are not to blame. you can recycle all you want but if industry keeps up how they are, it will not help. don't fool yourself, that's al gore style.

 

btw, please stop personally cashing in on environmental destruction, both of you. would be much appreciated.

 

sincerely,

a fellow environmentalist

 

I'll stop cashing in once you stop handing me bills!

 

 

i get all my home electricity from hydropower, haven't owned a car in 8 years, thanks =]

[sheatheman]

shea: no, sorry, fully disagree. i said it earlier in this thread: this is an industry, economic, and political problem, and individuals are not to blame. you can recycle all you want but if industry keeps up how they are, it will not help. don't fool yourself, that's al gore style.

 

the problem is that these governments/corporations are as powerful as they are in the first place. They were formed out of a selfish drive that comes from the individual. It's a human problem. The daniel plainviews and the jack kerouacs, the cattle drivers and the foodies, it is the individual. I know recycling isn't doing anything, that's why i said (haha).

[luke viia]

so remind me why you don't believe in legislation?

[luke viia]

godel - rebuilding 1/4th of the total private car market would require massive amounts of energy, probably more than enough to offset any gains by the use of electricity, which still has a huge set of energy storage problems. i like that you're hopeful, i just don't get the same impression based on the IEA reports and the other projections/accounts i've read.

[sheatheman]

And 1 in 4 cars NOT coughing up a bunch of smoke from burning gasoline wouldn't be a huge change? Huh!? What!? It might not be enough for your likings, but the change will be significant nevertheless.

 

electric cars don't cough up smoke on the road because all the smoke has already been coughed by the time the power reaches the battery, though that cough is only 87% as bad. here is a cool chart. go iceland

 

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/03/24/sunday-review/how-much-electricity-comes-from-renewable-sources.html?ref=sunday-review