EU

[cwmbrancity]

Time to switch shit up with a little bit of commentary from a dumb American. I'm in the EU currently. Flew in to Iceland, spent some time there, then flew to Germany, tomorrow I head off to Italy for a while. I figured we could steer this EU thread in a direction using me as a patsy. 

 

Some observations

 

First, Iceland

• Icelandic people are either waaaay too 'americanized' or just odd, silent dickheads. 
• In Iceland, cats rule the capital and the ENTIRETY of the southern route is controlled by sheep. Seriously, those fuckers are everywhere. Like, even up the side of a 200+ meter mountain/cliff and swimming across huge rivers.
• Loads of hay-bales in the countryside. I can only assume this explains the multitude of Domino's Pizza's on the island
• What the fuck is with the 'yellow-red' light in the EU?
• Icelandic drivers are just assholes. It's like a politeness thing or something... or lack thereof. I was terrified of the speed cameras they have and I'd go slow in the right lane. People will literally drive an inch off your bumper but not pass you. Super weird. 
• All the hot-water in the capital smells like deviled egg farts
• Buildings are far too hot for what you have to wear to stay comfortable outside. Going around to shops you basically strip down because it's 90 degrees in there, then you have to pile it on to go outside because even their summer is cold.
• Icelandic dudes all have the same haircut 
• they have even worse pop radio than the states, something I thought only existed in SE Asia. 

Second, Germany (Bravaria specifically) 

• Germans are very stern individuals who really don't get some types of humor
• The women range from 'incredibly attractive' to 'dear god what is that?' in a much wider and frequent array than in the states
• They really don't like weed, which seems weird because of how the vibe is with the drinking and chain-smoking
• Americans have a reputation for being dicks or arrogant from what I've heard, but it seems like it's the opposite to me. Europeans by and large in my travels are dicks to people they don't know. I'm a pretty overly-courteous person to well-meaning strangers so I've been put off by some of the abrupt and undeserved assholeness in some of my interactions with people who are in 'service' sectors of work.
• The trains need wifi and a fucking breeze. The air is stifling as fuck and I find it really odd that you can hop on a train going for like 6 hours and not have any wifi...
• Everyone drives nice cars
• Nobody realizes I'm not German until I can't speak in a language they understand. Got a little weird when a cop came up to me and really started talking fast. I believe I said 'no habla german' in my drunken state
• Deodorant, not cologne. Or something. But fuck me, it's a smelly occasion in one way or another. Either they're just letting it go raw or there is a miasma of designer scents the chokes the life from you.
• EVERYONE IS TAN

Everything else is amazing, I love the places I've been and people I've met. Beautiful countries so far (just got in from Austria for the day) and I'm excited for Italy. 

 

 

 

 

chuckles,

 

when you hit Italia, have a nose for any Daniele Baldelli/Claudio Rispoli gigs, their shows are usually flying (try n get a footy game in too)

 

btw, please post any appraisals on Britain & Eire you might find/found, foreigners usually see through our delusional bs/proclivities pronto

[Guest WNS000]

 

The article is usually paywalled, but if you're really interested (and you should be, that article would provide you with much more credibility when making your argument) search and find it in your more readable format.

 

 

Any chance that the article is to be found in the The Clash of Civilizations?

[Guest]

They really don't like weed, which seems weird because of how the vibe is with the drinking and chain-smoking

 

that's Bavaria, charges can be brought upon you even for just holding a spliff - verboten!

[dingformung]

 

They really don't like weed, which seems weird because of how the vibe is with the drinking and chain-smoking

that's Bavaria, charges can be brought upon you even for just holding a spliff - verboten!

 

Didn't they shoot a fleeing dealer in the head from 5 meters away some months ago?

[cwmbrancity]

[Guest]

 

 

They really don't like weed, which seems weird because of how the vibe is with the drinking and chain-smoking

 

that's Bavaria, charges can be brought upon you even for just holding a spliff - verboten!

Didn't they shoot a fleeing dealer in the head from 5 meters away some months ago?

just looked it up and yeah... charges against the policeman, who said he had aimed for the legs, were dropped.

do not weed in Bavaria kids! Or else.

[LimpyLoo]

At least it's not the Philippines, innit...

[chenGOD]

^ Where have you already told me what your Muslim friends and coworkers have said about the issues? I haven't noticed anything. I want per-issue comment by every one of them because that is what matters. I want you to actually ask them without fear of risking offending them.

 

I don't care about Muslims in America. I care about Europe now. Different numbers, different context.

Good lord, I'm not going to poll everyone of my Muslim friends for a ridiculous internet argument. I've mentioned it in this thread, go search. I was out drinking on Friday with a female Muslim ex-colleague and her wife, who is also Iranian and a Muslim. Their views are perfectly consistent with Canadian progressive views, despite the fact that they've immigrated from Iran.

Or just be honest and say that no matter how much anecdotal evidence you hear and read to the contrary, you won't accept that Muslims can and do believe in those human rights issues you brought up.

 

Muslims in America is an important comparison, because it shows the ability of them to integrate.

But fine let's talk about Muslims in Europe.

Or the UK specifically. Yes, >50% believe homosexuality is unacceptable. But keep in mind as recently as 5 years ago, between 50-60% of Christians surveyed in England felt that gay men couldn't be good parents, and in the same survey, about half felt that homosexuality can never be justified (it's a BRIN poll, on mobile so not linking).

And this is after the UK had gone through a sexual revolution. That's just one point, and using US research as a base from which to extrapolate, the numbers of Muslims who disapprove of homosexuality will go down.

 

What's interesting about the PEW research on European views of Muslims is that in countries where there are fewer Muslims (both absolute and as a percentage of population), people exhibit much more negative views on Muslims. Of course they exhibit much more negative views toward other minorities as well (Roma are even worse off than Muslims).

 

 

Finally to answer your other question about Clash of Civilizations, the article came before the book, so if you get the book you'll get the article.

[Guest WNS000]

 

Good lord, I'm not going to poll everyone of my Muslim friends for a ridiculous internet argument.

 

 

You can never know then. I for one had these detailed, controversial debates with Muslims and they revealed quite a lot about their mentality. You can never get such info in your regular friendly chat. Simple as that.

 

 

I was out drinking on Friday 1) with a female Muslim ex-colleague and her wife, who is also Iranian and a Muslim. 2) Their views are perfectly consistent with Canadian progressive views, despite the fact that they've immigrated from Iran

 

 

1) Lesbian Muslims?

 

2) What does it mean? I need details. You are still not saying anything. Sharia, sharia and homosexuality, Muhammad's barbaric actions, apostasy, stoning for adultery, jihad, reformation of Islam, polytheism, free sex, democracy, liberalism, western culture etc. There are lots of questions and each can reveal surprising hidden sentiments of an interviewee. Unless you do that (as I do myself when talking with Muslims) you know nothing about the person. Your friendly chat does not count.

 

Muslims in America is an important comparison, because it shows the ability of them to integrate.

 

What does it mean "to integrate" to you? To keep their mouth shut and their traditions behind closed doors unless they are in a stronger position to express their views and traditions openly? Remember the Nazi example? You can manipulate masses rapidly and promote their hidden sentiments.

 

Turks in Germany (many of them from families being there for generations) have recently let Europe know what they think about integration and assimilation. Parallel societies are real. Especially Turks are well documented in Germany. Deal with it.

 

Let's quote this again: "The whole concept of multiculturalism isn't based on tolerance but indifference". Which basically means "a time bomb".

 

Your view is too simple and lack in psychological understanding in my opinion. You should ask survivors of Rwanda or Yugoslavia conflicts how quickly can your friendly neighbour change when a strong wave of ideology spreads over a society. Then those hidden, suppressed sentiments become relevant and resonates strongly. The snowball effect.

 

I hate to repeat that, but you seem very naive without understanding of wider context of societies and human behaviour. Maybe because you live in a prosperous and peaceful country of Canada (where you select immigrants pretty strictly btw)?

 

 

But fine let's talk about Muslims in Europe.

Or the UK specifically. Yes, >50% believe homosexuality is unacceptable. But keep in mind as recently as 5 years ago, between 50-60% of Christians surveyed in England felt that gay men couldn't be good parents, and in the same survey, about half felt that homosexuality can never be justified (it's a BRIN poll, on mobile so not linking).

And this is after the UK had gone through a sexual revolution. That's just one point, and using US research as a base from which to extrapolate, the numbers of Muslims who disapprove of homosexuality will go down

 

 

I am not aware of Christians believing in an equivalent of Sharia law (which means severe punishments or even death penalty for homosexuals). With majority of world Muslims believing and proposing Sharia do you see the difference now?

 

Those Christians are idiots btw, fuck them.

 

Off topic:

But also remember that "being a good parent" is a complicated topic and there are respected psychologists claiming that same-sex parents upbringing can have negative effect on kids - I personally think the truth is somewhere in the middle in this topic but I think any child would prefer same-sex parents over children's home any day.

 

 

 

What's interesting about the PEW research on European views of Muslims is that in countries where there are fewer Muslims (both absolute and as a percentage of population), people exhibit much more negative views on Muslims. Of course they exhibit much more negative views toward other minorities as well (Roma are even worse off than Muslims).

 

In case of Roma people, Middle and Eastern Europe (which has the lowest number of Muslims as you said) has rich experience with them. They are very difficult to integrate and they have been in European societies for hundreds of years now. But they are not dangerous and love freedom (nomads). No ideology to spread.

 

The sentiments of countries with fewer Muslims having more negative and radical views on Muslims are easily explainable by not wanting to repeat the same mistakes as the western Europe did while having to resist the increasing pressure from more powerful western countries. The more pressure the more resistance and the more it gets reflected in the polls. Eastern European countries learned from the mistakes of the West. They see the "fruit" of western suicidal multiculturalism quite often now. As I have already said before, Eastern european countries accepts many thousands migrants and refugees from non-Muslim countries every year. There were no significant problems with them and moreover no ideological problems. As I said before, Muslims are a special case.

 

 

Finally to answer your other question about Clash of Civilizations, the article came before the book, so if you get the book you'll get the article.

 

Cool, thanks. Got the book here.

[chenGOD]

Yes lesbian Muslims.

And I'm not going to poll them all, but have talked to them in depth. But I'm not going to record their answers for this lol. And I've also lived in many countries around the world, fuck of with the naive argument. It's a facile response.

If you want to bring up the Rwandan genocide please do, but then bring up the full colonial history, the historical violence between the Hutus and the Tutsi, and the fact that the genicide was committed not by a minority but by the majority population toward the market dominant minority. They were only the market dominant minority because of idiotic racist policies implemented by the Belgians.

 

Clearly your mind is as open as a steel trap, so this argument is done.

[dingformung]

Why do you keep comparing Islam (a religion with manifold natures) with Nazi ideology, WNS000?

Sharia is shit, I know - so do many muslims. Do you really think that almost every person that grew up in a society with Islamic roots is potentially dangerous? That's naive overgeneralization

[Guest WNS000]

Yes lesbian Muslims.

 

Are you aware of how bad this example is, right? They would be probably executed or at least imprisoned back in Iran. I am not surprised at all they share liberal views (if I can trust your analysis). Next time ask your heterosexual Muslim male friends who are not in dissonance with their religion. Your lesbian Muslim friends would be welcome to stay as my neighbours. Another thing is that Iran is quite progressive in the context of Islamic countries and they are mostly Shia (not that it would matter much when it comes to behaviour of masses as Iran is quite famous when it comes to state's supported terrorism but you could for example expect Iranians not sharing some views spread by Sunni leaders such as Wahhabists which is a good start).

 

 

Btw how can they still be Muslims when homosexuality is prohibited in Islam no matter interpretation? Another proof that you cannot expect logical thinking from manipulated people entrapped in religion. The power of tradition and imprinted culture is strong. All it takes is to be a child and be raised in such environment. How is multiculturalism possible then if people in general are so stupid, irrational and traditionalistic?

 

 

And I'm not going to poll them all, but have talked to them in depth. But I'm not going to record their answers for this lol.

 

You don't even have to. They are completely irrelevant for this debate.

 

And I've also lived in many countries around the world, fuck of with the naive argument. It's a facile response.

 

Your knowledge of psychology is clearly insufficient though. You prove your naivety with your posts. Giving wrong examples, not understanding my examples of manipulation with masses and overestimating capabilities of average human population. Any chance you loved café discussions in your college years? Similarly disconnected from reality.

 

If you want to bring up the Rwandan genocide please do, but then bring up the full colonial history, the historical violence between the Hutus and the Tutsi, and the fact that the genicide was committed not by a minority but by the majority population toward the market dominant minority. They were only the market dominant minority because of idiotic racist policies implemented by the Belgians.

 

Rwanda was only an example (I also mentioned Yugoslavia after Tito's death) of how masses can be manipulated and how they act in the snowball effect - how your long-time neighbour you used to greet in front of your house suddenly wants to kill you. I don't dispute how Rwanda happened and how Belgium fucked up. Same for Yugoslavia. What I say is: imagine a charismatic Muslim leader spreading his ideas across Muslim communities in Europe in 2100 for example...

 

Clearly your mind is as open as a steel trap, so this argument is done.

 

Because I don't agree with your weak or even non-sense naive arguments? Logic.

[Guest WNS000]

Why do you keep comparing Islam (a religion with manifold natures) with Nazi ideology, WNS000?

 

1) Islam is a political system.

2) Islam is against liberalism and western human rights.

3) Islam believes in supremacy of its people.

4) My example of Nazis was mainly to show how a relatively small active minority can completely dominate a passive majority (which was my argument against so popular "the percentage of Muslims is too small against the rest of the European population").

 

 

Sharia is shit, I know - so do many muslims. Do you really think that almost every person that grew up in a society with Islamic roots is potentially dangerous? That's naive overgeneralization

 

Sharia and Muslims:

 

http://admin.americanthinker.com/images/bucket/2015-12/195710_5_.jpg (PEW research screen)

 

See the percentage? Quite a prominent majority if you ask me. I am not making it up. I don't say that almost every person from Islamic society is potentially dangerous but I say that the number is pretty big and that the risks are real. All I say is that average Muslims are not ready for living in a liberal society just yet.

[LimpyLoo]

Lesbian Muslims are a good sign, no?

I mean, if the hope is that Islam can 'modernize,' then folks having this kind of take on Islam is encouraging, no?

Obviously they probably shouldn't go to Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan, or y'know most other Islamic countries...

[Guest WNS000]

Lesbian Muslims are a good sign, no?

I mean, if the hope is that Islam can 'modernize,' then folks having this kind of take on Islam is encouraging, no?

Obviously they probably shouldn't go to Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan, or y'know most other Islamic countries...

 

Absolutely.

[keanu reeves]

 

Why do you keep comparing Islam (a religion with manifold natures) with Nazi ideology, WNS000?

 

1) Islam is a political system.

2) Islam is against liberalism and western human rights.

3) Islam believes in supremacy of its people.

4) My example of Nazis was mainly to show how a relatively small active minority can completely dominate a passive majority (which was my argument against so popular "the percentage of Muslims is too small against the rest of the European population").

 

that isn't how the nazis worked. there is literally no comparison to be made. 

[Guest WNS000]

 

 

Why do you keep comparing Islam (a religion with manifold natures) with Nazi ideology, WNS000?

 

1) Islam is a political system.

2) Islam is against liberalism and western human rights.

3) Islam believes in supremacy of its people.

4) My example of Nazis was mainly to show how a relatively small active minority can completely dominate a passive majority (which was my argument against so popular "the percentage of Muslims is too small against the rest of the European population").

 

that isn't how the nazis worked. there is literally no comparison to be made. 

 

 

You will have to explain that in more detail in order to make an argument. What is not how the Nazis worked?

[LimpyLoo]

Islam is not a monolith, it is a multiplicity of things. Some interpretations are morally barbaric, but not all of them are. I think you area of concern is overgeneralized, and you should zoom in on the specific aspect that is troublesome. It seems to me that many of more progressive strains of Islam don't reach the sort of threshold of your concerns.

 

In other words, I think "Islam" is an overly broad category for these purposes.

[chenGOD]

 

Yes lesbian Muslims.

Are you aware of how bad this example is, right? They would be probably executed or at least imprisoned back in Iran. I am not surprised at all they share liberal views (if I can trust your analysis). Next time ask your heterosexual Muslim male friends who are not in dissonance with their religion. Your lesbian Muslim friends would be welcome to stay as my neighbours. Another thing is that Iran is quite progressive in the context of Islamic countries and they are mostly Shia (not that it would matter much when it comes to behaviour of masses as Iran is quite famous when it comes to state's supported terrorism but you could for example expect Iranians not sharing some views spread by Sunni leaders such as Wahhabists which is a good start).

 

 

Btw how can they still be Muslims when homosexuality is prohibited in Islam no matter interpretation? Another proof that you cannot expect logical thinking from manipulated people entrapped in religion. The power of tradition and imprinted culture is strong. All it takes is to be a child and be raised in such environment. How is multiculturalism possible then if people in general are so stupid, irrational and traditionalistic?

 

And I'm not going to poll them all, but have talked to them in depth. But I'm not going to record their answers for this lol.

You don't even have to. They are completely irrelevant for this debate.

And I've also lived in many countries around the world, fuck of with the naive argument. It's a facile response.

Your knowledge of psychology is clearly insufficient though. You prove your naivety with your posts. Giving wrong examples, not understanding my examples of manipulation with masses and overestimating capabilities of average human population. Any chance you loved café discussions in your college years? Similarly disconnected from reality.

If you want to bring up the Rwandan genocide please do, but then bring up the full colonial history, the historical violence between the Hutus and the Tutsi, and the fact that the genicide was committed not by a minority but by the majority population toward the market dominant minority. They were only the market dominant minority because of idiotic racist policies implemented by the Belgians.

Rwanda was only an example (I also mentioned Yugoslavia after Tito's death) of how masses can be manipulated and how they act in the snowball effect - how your long-time neighbour you used to greet in front of your house suddenly wants to kill you. I don't dispute how Rwanda happened and how Belgium fucked up. Same for Yugoslavia. What I say is: imagine a charismatic Muslim leader spreading his ideas across Muslim communities in Europe in 2100 for example...

Clearly your mind is as open as a steel trap, so this argument is done.

Because I don't agree with your weak or even non-sense naive arguments? Logic.

Fucks sake I mentioned they were lesbian to show that you know, not all Muslims are the same. And you don't get to define what being Muslim means to them. I've talked to male heterosexual Muslim friends here as well who have no issues with homosexuality, don't believe in multiple wives, don't treat their women like chattel etc etc. But now of course you will say "oh they will say something different when they are alone with other Muslims".

 

If anyone here is naive it's you. You think that Islam is one coherent ideology, when it's very clear it's not. The PEW research poll you link to so frequently shows that, even within Muslim majority countries there are different interpretations, and among Muslim majority countries variation occurs as well. With Muslims who immigrate to Western countries, there is even more variation, and their children adopt more western values.

 

But that doesn't fit your preconceived notion of what a Muslim is, and doesn't fit your nonsensical quote on what multiculturalism is. Since I live in a multicultural city, let me tell you that multiculturalism is indeed one of tolerance and acceptance, and not indifference.

 

No your mind is as open as a steel trap because contrary to your assertions that you are always changing your position on this topic, you haven't moved a single inch from your childish, nationalist, prejudiced thought process. But the fault is mine for wasting time with you. No more though. I'll only have to take notice of you if you are reported. Enjoy your last comments, as I'm sure you'll make them.

[keanu reeves]

 

 

 

Why do you keep comparing Islam (a religion with manifold natures) with Nazi ideology, WNS000?

 

1) Islam is a political system.

2) Islam is against liberalism and western human rights.

3) Islam believes in supremacy of its people.

4) My example of Nazis was mainly to show how a relatively small active minority can completely dominate a passive majority (which was my argument against so popular "the percentage of Muslims is too small against the rest of the European population").

 

that isn't how the nazis worked. there is literally no comparison to be made. 

 

 

You will have to explain that in more detail in order to make an argument. What is not how the Nazis worked?

 

 

do you think by making a small numbered list of blanket statements you're somehow making an argument? 

1. islam isn't a political system, it's a religion.

2. i personally know a lot of muslims who are extremely progressive. so, wrong.

3. it's a belief system that guides people through life, like any religion. it isn't about superiority. 

4. comparing "islam" to "nazis" is ridiculous and arbitrary. you're comparing a political party that emerged out of a number of factors post ww1, gained traction among the working class and middle class, and by 1930 was the second largest political party in germany, with a religion. it's obvious why that doesn't hold water.

it's also pretty rich that you're going the "islam is nazis" route considering how well your xenophobic bullshit would fit in with that ideology

[azatoth]

Funny how Jev is all in a huff about those swarthy musselmen with no regards for Western values when he lives in a country where the right-wing ruling party and president have done constitutional amendments that increases controls over media, justice system and the constitutional tribunal. That sure shows how Poland is a beacon of democracy and Western values.

[usagi]

I'd just like remind people at this juncture that social retardation/autism is the foremost cause of a lot of these sorts of worldviews developing, especially on the Innernette. once you cut past all the geopolitical/social/cultural analysis, it all boils down to one thing: you're just not getting out enough, having enough new experiences and meeting enough mixed groups of people to have a grounded, balanced worldview.

[KovalainenFanBoy]

it's not racist if it's true

[usagi]

a fact can be wielded as a weapon in a partisan debate to achieve an end that may not reasonably follow from those facts, just like any distortion. confusing the pursuit of truth on the one hand and a "racist"/whatever agenda on the other hand is a mistake.

[Guest]

Funny how Jev is all in a huff about those swarthy musselmen with no regards for Western values when he lives in a country where the right-wing ruling party and president have done constitutional amendments that increases controls over media, justice system and the constitutional tribunal. That sure shows how Poland is a beacon of democracy and Western values.

yeah basically he's got to be either a supporter of the PISS party (neonazi conservative scum) or a conformist (a wee little coward). which is it? Probably has been listening to Radio Maryja a bit too much.