Hugh Mughnus Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 5 hours ago, darreichungsform said: https://www.instagram.com/p/BxVJMb3lmgQ/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet that looks..... offal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingformung Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 absolutely disgusting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingformung Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 How anti-vegan is it to have pets that kill multiple mice a day in most brutal ways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YangYing Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 im not sure if the social contract argument has been posed on here but it's interesting... I'm wondering how u guys would respond to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingformung Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 ^Maybe you could explain it shortly. Don't really have the time to watch a 2 hours+ video about that right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YangYing Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, darreichungsform said: ^Maybe you could explain it shortly. Don't really have the time to watch a 2 hours+ video about that right now is layed out on the first 5 mins, the rest is just arguing back and forth about it u can speed it up so it ends being only 1 hour! but as I understand it you respect the social contract above all and reject any value of sentience so u end up with that u can do whatever to animals (or rather its moraly neutral do kill/eat etc) since they can't respect the social contract in the same way as humans can... it leads to some pretty brutal conclusions but as is discussed on the vid it kinda seems like the only reasonable stance u can have as a meat eater, and means that most people should probably b vegan since most people aren't ok with doing whatever to animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingformung Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Violence against animals or against anyone else isn't only about social contracts, it's about physical pain and the individual psychological pain of the victim. Social contract just isn't a dimension by means of which violence against animals can be evaluated. Therefore it can't be used to rationalize killing animals. 35 minutes ago, MIXL2 said: it kinda seems like the only reasonable stance u can have as a meat eater, and means that most people should probably b vegan since most people aren't ok with doing whatever to animals. Yes, it seems that way. Humans aren't very rational beings, though. They can know and feel one thing but still do another thing just because they are hindered to have the strength to change their habits. It's sort of the same with ideologies. Maybe it is some sort of ideology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YangYing Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 1 minute ago, darreichungsform said: Violence against animals or against anyone else isn't only about social contracts, it's about physical pain and the individual psychological pain of the victim. Social contract just isn't a dimension by means of which violence against animals can be evaluated. Therefore it can't be used to rationalize killing animals. well that's an axiomatic thing... the pro meat eating side on that discussion decides that they want to base their moral system off the social contract (so violence as a moral wrong in the sense ure describing becomes morally neutral unless the other party can respect the social contract) and if you're ok with that n what follows then sure, you can rationalize it.. (although it does mean that physical pain, suffering etc which most people agree should be reduced against animals is not something you value at all and if ure uncomfortable with that notion then u probs shouldn't be eating meat) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingformung Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Maybe it helps to look into why there is a social contract/convention of not harming each other. Its purpose is primarily to avoid pain and suffering caused by violence and secondarily to preserve peace amongst the group. The primary effect can obviously be transferred par for par to animals. So those who use social contract/convention as an argument to rationalize killing sentient beings that are non-human simply don't make the step of thinking of the whys of social contracts. The reasons for that can be repression, indifference or idiocy In most cases it's repression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YangYing Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 no they do.. the thing is is a different base value - u say it's primarily to avoid pain and suffering in general; they'd say it's primarily to avoid pain and suffering towards me , then after that it goes: it's morally neutral to do anything against being a who can't reciprocate social contracts, animals can't reciprocate social contracts therefore it's morally neutral to do anything against animals. Most people disagree w the first premise because they go with that sentience itself is more valuable than social contracts and we should reduce suffering in general etc So is not that they don't take the step of why.. the why is just different edit: after that is a question of what about people who can't reciprocate, would you really b ok with someone skinning dogs etc... which is what those two hours are about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 I've seen the social contract anti-vegan argument thrown around elsewhere and it's entirely unconvincing. It's descriptive of much of the legal and ethical basis of our society but it has a bunch of flaws in it which those who espouse it typically tend to ignore, such as: -Mentally retarded humans can't comprehend social contracts -Children of sufficiently young ages can't comprehend social contracts -Babies can't comprehend social contracts -People in old age with alzheimer's can't comprehend social contracts Can we kill them for meat? Maybe some sociopaths would think we can but that doesn't validate the argument and merely exposes them as being unfit for our society. Yet the social contract anti-vegan argument results in these conclusions. So unless you want to embrace them you can't put it forward. Furthermore it's only an attempted argument against the ethical aspect of veganism with respect to the animals themselves. It's doesn't even enter into the environmental concerns (greenhouse gas emissions, rainforest deforestation, misallocation of resources, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 10 hours ago, darreichungsform said: How anti-vegan is it to have pets that kill multiple mice a day in most brutal ways? I assume you mean snakes. It's about equivalent to having any obligate carnivores, such as cats, as pets. Cats for instance in some areas are severely harmful invasive species and will decimate local wildlife because they're such competent hunters. And you can't feed them vegan diets because they actually require meat. I would say it's anti-vegan but in the future it could become vegan friendly if we develop lab-grown meat to feed to cats. For animals that want live prey though it will be harder. It's anti-vegan to say "eliminate all snakes" too so it's just kind of a difficult scenario. idk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YangYing Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, Zeffolia said: I've seen the social contract anti-vegan argument thrown around elsewhere and it's entirely unconvincing. It's descriptive of much of the legal and ethical basis of our society but it has a bunch of flaws in it which those who espouse it typically tend to ignore, such as: -Mentally retarded humans can't comprehend social contracts -Children of sufficiently young ages can't comprehend social contracts -Babies can't comprehend social contracts -People in old age with alzheimer's can't comprehend social contracts Can we kill them for meat? Maybe some sociopaths would think we can but that doesn't validate the argument and merely exposes them as being unfit for our society. Yet the social contract anti-vegan argument results in these conclusions. So unless you want to embrace them you can't put it forward. Furthermore it's only an attempted argument against the ethical aspect of veganism with respect to the animals themselves. It's doesn't even enter into the environmental concerns (greenhouse gas emissions, rainforest deforestation, misallocation of resources, etc.) most of those concerns are discussed on the vid above and on a shorter vid here but to answer quickly - we already treat mentally retarded people who can't reciprocate social contracts very differently - since babies can grow to respect social contracts it would be morally wrong to eat them (same w isolated tribes etc) - same w people in old age or very advanced stages of dementia so that they can't reciprocate: we treat them very differently as for enviromental/health arguments etc these are the weaker arguments for veganism (since they can be made more strongly for say less co2 via industry or no sugar on our diets and we aren't doing anything about those...) The social contract idea does mean however that u do not base your morals off empathy at all, so you are against all animal rights laws currently in place for example... is definetly not something most people are comfortable with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerwolf Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Just scooted in to say I was listening to BBC radio 4 a few months ago and there was a programme about the rise of veganism, almost everybody mentioned they had decided to change because of a documentary Cowspiracy. A few days ago I buzzed through it on Netflix. So at least I'm a little more educated than I was before, it was quite an eye opener. And made me question my habits. Because I work with a fair few Sikhs, I've always thought because of their knowledge of herbs and spices their homecooked vegetarian food (which I get to eat on a regular basis!) is so tasty it would be easier to switch if one had their skills. But I just don't have the time to learn the skills of a traditional Sikh housewife! But that is the way forward. I think if I could cut down meat by 70% I'd be very happy with that (sunday roasts and barbeques being obvious times the beast would be eaten) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingformung Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 12 hours ago, Zeffolia said: I assume you mean snakes. It's about equivalent to having any obligate carnivores, such as cats, as pets. Cats for instance in some areas are severely harmful invasive species and will decimate local wildlife because they're such competent hunters. And you can't feed them vegan diets because they actually require meat. I would say it's anti-vegan but in the future it could become vegan friendly if we develop lab-grown meat to feed to cats. For animals that want live prey though it will be harder. It's anti-vegan to say "eliminate all snakes" too so it's just kind of a difficult scenario. idk Actually I had cats in mind. Let's take them as an example. Even if you feed them enough they will still hunt and eat other animals. If they're really full they might just kill them for fun without eating them afterwards. Not allowing them to do that wouldn't be species-appropriate. It could actually help controlling mice populations which in large numbers could harm the balance of an ecosystem and indirectly harm other animals. Of course, if there are too many cats they can also cause imbalance. So is it okay to sterilize/castrate them so they won't procreate too much so that they have less of a damaging effect? If the answer is yes, why shouldn't it be allowed to forcefully castrate/sterilize humans as well considering they also do a lot of harm to ecosystems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YangYing Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 27 minutes ago, darreichungsform said: Actually I had cats in mind. Let's take them as an example. Even if you feed them enough they will still hunt and eat other animals. If they're really full they might just kill them for fun without eating them afterwards. Not allowing them to do that wouldn't be species-appropriate. It could actually help controlling mice populations which in large numbers could harm the balance of an ecosystem and indirectly harm other animals. Of course, if there are too many cats they can also cause imbalance. So is it okay to sterilize/castrate them so they won't procreate too much so that they have less of a damaging effect? If the answer is yes, why shouldn't it be allowed to forcefully castrate/sterilize humans as well considering they also do a lot of harm to ecosystems? I think there's a jump being done here at some point that no vegan would really agree with... otherwise you could extend this to kinda morally justify forcefully stopping every species in the planet from enacting harm on another species (edit: or the ecosystem or whatever) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manmower Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwmbrancity Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 if it helps i believe Norman Tebbit's life & corpse should be used to sustain other life forms, preferably a wild meadow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 16 hours ago, beer badger said: Just scooted in to say I was listening to BBC radio 4 a few months ago and there was a programme about the rise of veganism, almost everybody mentioned they had decided to change because of a documentary Cowspiracy. A few days ago I buzzed through it on Netflix. So at least I'm a little more educated than I was before, it was quite an eye opener. And made me question my habits. Because I work with a fair few Sikhs, I've always thought because of their knowledge of herbs and spices their homecooked vegetarian food (which I get to eat on a regular basis!) is so tasty it would be easier to switch if one had their skills. But I just don't have the time to learn the skills of a traditional Sikh housewife! But that is the way forward. I think if I could cut down meat by 70% I'd be very happy with that (sunday roasts and barbeques being obvious times the beast would be eaten) Don't know much about Sikh food specifically, but Indian food in general is a godsend for vegans. It's almost entirely all delicious and extremely vegeterian friendly. Sadly much of it has a large dairy influence though. Indian food is my new favorite food discovery of the past few years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 6 hours ago, darreichungsform said: Actually I had cats in mind. Let's take them as an example. Even if you feed them enough they will still hunt and eat other animals. If they're really full they might just kill them for fun without eating them afterwards. Not allowing them to do that wouldn't be species-appropriate. It could actually help controlling mice populations which in large numbers could harm the balance of an ecosystem and indirectly harm other animals. Of course, if there are too many cats they can also cause imbalance. So is it okay to sterilize/castrate them so they won't procreate too much so that they have less of a damaging effect? If the answer is yes, why shouldn't it be allowed to forcefully castrate/sterilize humans as well considering they also do a lot of harm to ecosystems? Good question. I think it's very unlikely that we can train non-human animals to not want to reproduce anymore. It's the deepest biological imperative so it's impractical to not sterilize them if we want to reduce their populations ethically. Humans on the other hand can be trained to use contraceptives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Mughnus Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 21 minutes ago, Zeffolia said: Don't know much about Sikh food specifically, but Indian food in general is a godsend for vegans. It's almost entirely all delicious and extremely vegeterian friendly. Sadly much of it has a large dairy influence though. Indian food is my new favorite food discovery of the past few years Agreed! If I was ever to go vege or vegan I'd be heavy on Indian food. Some of it is just so delicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlemflolia Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 Very good podcast on pop culture misrepresentations of animal rights and veganism: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 I bought some of those Beyond meat fresh burger patties recently, and don't think I'll do that again. The smell they make when cooking them I found was really a turn off for me. I cooked the first 2 in a frying pan and they stunk up the place bad. The smell is hard to pinpoint, but it is a very non-natural, chemical type smell. Really made me wonder what they hell is in these things. Taste wise, there is a definite meat taste when you first bite into one, but the texture of the inside of the patty is very different from meat, probably closer to the texture of the inside of a falafel. I cooked the next 2 outside on the grill and again, the smell they emit when cooking is like a weird chemical mixed with a hint of meat in it. I had to throw some onions on the grill to try and cover up the smell. So I guess I'm not sold yet on these latest and greatest plant based meat alternatives that have come on the market recently. I've also tried some of the beyond meat frozen stuff like the fake ground beef, and didn't think much of it. If I'm going to do the veggie burger thing, probably best to stick to a homemade black bean burger or portobello mushroom burger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingformung Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 My grandma used to make boletus Schnitzel (breaded boletusses) from mushrooms she collected in the forest. Was pretty tasty and kind of meat like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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