Veganism

[Hugh Mughnus]

I'm not sure how pointing out literally how the industry works is stupid shit but ok. I also don't think anyone said there's no point to going vegan either (edit: ignore my drunk posts from a few days ago of course pls). Just that you're not having a tangible impact. The market absorbs the decrease in demand from vegans, through price shifts and a huge number of meat eating people entering the market through population growth and emerging middle class in many countries. This is obvious by looking at the stats on production and slaughter. 

 

That doesn't mean there is no point to going vegan. Just that it would take a huge number of people to do so to make the industry not profitable enough to the effect of changing production. 

 

Every movement starts with one or a few people though so it's not bad to advocate for.

 

 

 

Anyway, why not try taking the discussion in a different direction and discuss the health merits of dropping meat consumption?

[beerwolf]

 

Anyway, why not try taking the discussion in a different discussion and discuss the health merits of dropping meat consumption?

 

Good point Stephen 

[dingformung]

Being vegan makes your children gay

[Hugh Mughnus]

Have you tried going vegan or vegetarian ever beerboss?

 

My main concern would be loss of lean muscle mass - difficult to hit target protein with plant based proteins, and less bioavailable as well. Although probably lower calories overall and less fat, I think I'd have to supplement a vege diet with whey (which is obvs non-vegan). I lose muscle mass quickly.

 

Me and the wife used to do 1 day a week as vegetarian and I had a hard time consuming a healthy amount of calories & protein on those days - likely a result of me being a noob at it and not knowing the best foods to eat. 

[beerwolf]

@Stephen

 

I went 6 months 80% meat free when in India and Nepal (once up near Ladakh the meat source was safe to eat so I got stuck in). I didn't feel any health benefits, I just went slightly stir crazy thinking about eating meat tbh. 

 

In an ideal world (for main meal of the day) I'd eat meat 3 times a week, fish once (I eat a tin of fish for lunch 5 times a week) and the rest vegetarian. Vegan seems like a bit of a trend atm, and not one for me. I don't think I'm designed that way tbh. But each to their own.

[manmower]

Just that you're not having a tangible impact. The market absorbs the decrease in demand from vegans, through price shifts and a huge number of meat eating people entering the market through population growth and emerging middle class in many countries. This is obvious by looking at the stats on production and slaughter.

No I completely disagree, unless you know what's going on in some alternative timeline you're just stating an opinion (which is fine) rather than some obvious fact.

[Hugh Mughnus]

I have no intentions of going full vegetarian or vegan but I think I'd like to scale things back a bit, I like your 3 days a week + 1 day fish idea. 

 

I think lacto-ovo-vegetarian would be much easier to manage than vegan though, because I could still supplement with things like cottage cheese, whey protein, eggs etc. Nuts/seeds are great but other high protein vegetarian foods like legumes make me bloated and feel sleepy. 

 

Edit: should note that I aim for 2000ish (usually less) calories a day and around 180g protein. This is hard to hit without protein dense foods.

[Soloman Tump]

That's pretty much what we do, 4or5 meat, 1or2 fish, 1or2 veggie.

 

I used to definitely eat meat everyday for dinner.

[Hugh Mughnus]

 

Just that you're not having a tangible impact. The market absorbs the decrease in demand from vegans, through price shifts and a huge number of meat eating people entering the market through population growth and emerging middle class in many countries. This is obvious by looking at the stats on production and slaughter.

No I completely disagree, unless you know what's going on in some alternative timeline you're just stating an opinion (which is fine) rather than some obvious fact.

 

 

Even a cursory amount of research on the topic would show you that meat consumption in India and China is growing explosively, far outpacing veganism rates. This correlates to increased production and slaughter numbers worldwide year over year. A large part of this is (numerous sources on this) the growing middle class in China particularly, who can now afford to eat meat more frequently. I guess it depends how you define "tangible impact" though, perhaps I should have said statistically significant.

 

"Growth in per capita meat consumption has been most marked in countries who have underwent a strong economic transition - per capita consumption in China has grown approximately 15-fold since 1961; "

 

https://ourworldindata.org/meat-and-seafood-production-consumption

 

 

 

Anyways, I'm done with that topic tbh no point in a pissing match. I'm more interested in hearing how people manage being vegetarian or vegan, challenges to implementing etc. I want to scale back my consumption for other reasons.

[auxien]

I'm not sure how pointing out literally how the industry works is stupid shit but ok. I also don't think anyone said there's no point to going vegan either (edit: ignore my drunk posts from a few days ago of course pls). Just that you're not having a tangible impact. The market absorbs the decrease in demand from vegans, through price shifts and a huge number of meat eating people entering the market through population growth and emerging middle class in many countries. This is obvious by looking at the stats on production and slaughter. 

having 1 less meat eater means no tangible impact, who cares

having 10 less meat eaters means no tangible impact, who cares

having 100 less meat eaters means no tangible impact, who cares

having 1000 less meat eaters means okay maybe some tangible impact

 

you'll never get to a 1000 less, why even try!!!!!!~~!121!!!!!

 

 

every less meat eater is a step towards the goal of zero humans ever eating any other living creature that vegans deem off limits, this is reallllllyyyy the simplest part of all this bulky

 

edit: obv yes it's not a 1:1 ratio of 1 more vegan equals 1 less dead cow, there are plenty of factors like you point out, but that's basically the idea, and it basically works

[dumplings]

Any good books/sites for recipes on meals worth checking out?

 

I still like meat and I don't envisage me giving it up in the short term but I'd like to be able to make a small difference to the world by introducing more veg-based meals to my weekly lunch/dinners.

[Hugh Mughnus]

 

I'm not sure how pointing out literally how the industry works is stupid shit but ok. I also don't think anyone said there's no point to going vegan either (edit: ignore my drunk posts from a few days ago of course pls). Just that you're not having a tangible impact. The market absorbs the decrease in demand from vegans, through price shifts and a huge number of meat eating people entering the market through population growth and emerging middle class in many countries. This is obvious by looking at the stats on production and slaughter. 

having 1 less meat eater means no tangible impact, who cares

having 10 less meat eaters means no tangible impact, who cares

having 100 less meat eaters means no tangible impact, who cares

having 1000 less meat eaters means okay maybe some tangible impact

 

you'll never get to a 1000 less, why even try!!!!!!~~!121!!!!!

 

 

every less meat eater is a step towards the goal of zero humans ever eating any other living creature that vegans deem off limits, this is reallllllyyyy the simplest part of all this bulky

 

edit: obv yes it's not a 1:1 ratio of 1 more vegan equals 1 less dead cow, there are plenty of factors like you point out, but that's basically the idea, and it basically works

 

 

I never said don't try. What are you on about? In fact I said more than once I applaud those that have made the change and indicated I want to scale back my consumption as well. 

 

 

"Every movement starts with one or a few people though so it's not bad to advocate for."

[auxien]

edit nevermind.

[luke viia]

all i know is, given the chance, i'd probably eat a human

[beerwolf]

Stephens not backing down lads. I think he likes acting the watmm village idiot but he no fool.

 

Right I'm drunk, and I'm signing off. Otherwise I'll wake up in the morning and go into a cold sweat when I realised those last couple of posts were funny at the time but only to me.

 

Goodnight!

all i know is, given the chance, i'd probably eat a human

 

hahahah that's fucking brilliant!

 

flolol

 

(hopefully you're joking) (but you never can tell)

[manmower]

 

 

Just that you're not having a tangible impact. The market absorbs the decrease in demand from vegans, through price shifts and a huge number of meat eating people entering the market through population growth and emerging middle class in many countries. This is obvious by looking at the stats on production and slaughter.

No I completely disagree, unless you know what's going on in some alternative timeline you're just stating an opinion (which is fine) rather than some obvious fact.

 

 

Even a cursory amount of research on the topic would show you that meat consumption in India and China is growing explosively, far outpacing veganism rates. This correlates to increased production and slaughter numbers worldwide year over year. A large part of this is (numerous sources on this) the growing middle class in China particularly, who can now afford to eat meat more frequently. I guess it depends how you define "tangible impact" though, perhaps I should have said statistically significant.

 

Growth in per capita meat consumption has been most marked in countries who have underwent a strong economic transition - per capita consumption in China has grown approximately 15-fold since 1961; "

 

https://ourworldindata.org/meat-and-seafood-production-consumption

 

 

 

Anyways, I'm done with that topic tbh no point in a pissing match. I'm more interested in hearing how people manage being vegetarian or vegan, challenges to implementing etc. I want to scale back my consumption for other reasons.

 

The fact that meat consumption continues to grow in no way implies that veganism is not having any effect on it. Nothing to do with a "pissing match", it's straightforward logic. Again, to determine the size and significance of any effect we'd need data from a vegan-less world which we don't have.

[Hugh Mughnus]

Fair statement, yes. 

[beerwolf]

but what if you're a vegan but love eating a fine fragrant but meaty pussy? what happens then?

 

(sorry I've had a bottle of wine)

[hello spiral]

all i know is, given the chance, i'd probably eat a human

[zlemflolia]

 

 

Just that you're not having a tangible impact. The market absorbs the decrease in demand from vegans, through price shifts and a huge number of meat eating people entering the market through population growth and emerging middle class in many countries. This is obvious by looking at the stats on production and slaughter.

No I completely disagree, unless you know what's going on in some alternative timeline you're just stating an opinion (which is fine) rather than some obvious fact.

 

 

Even a cursory amount of research on the topic would show you that meat consumption in India and China is growing explosively, far outpacing veganism rates. This correlates to increased production and slaughter numbers worldwide year over year. A large part of this is (numerous sources on this) the growing middle class in China particularly, who can now afford to eat meat more frequently. I guess it depends how you define "tangible impact" though, perhaps I should have said statistically significant.

 

"Growth in per capita meat consumption has been most marked in countries who have underwent a strong economic transition - per capita consumption in China has grown approximately 15-fold since 1961; "

 

https://ourworldindata.org/meat-and-seafood-production-consumption

 

 

 

Anyways, I'm done with that topic tbh no point in a pissing match. I'm more interested in hearing how people manage being vegetarian or vegan, challenges to implementing etc. I want to scale back my consumption for other reasons.

 

 

It doesn't matter if it's increasing overall, if there is a non-zero yearly veganism conversion rate then it's increasing less overall than it otherwise would have been, and if there's any non-zero veganism ratio n% than each year demand and therefore production approaches being n% smaller than it would have been if there were no vegans.  If meat production is increasing 10% per year due to third world countries increasing demand, but 1% convert to veganism every year then it's only increasing 9% per year.

 

I'm honestly done debating 4th grade math at this point so this is my final post on the topic.

[Hugh Mughnus]

Yes, we all understand what you are saying. Every one of us. I'm not sure what you think you're debating? 

 

I don't think there's a person in this thread that has "debated" that for every animal a person doesn't eat, an animal wasn't eaten. Literally no one is trying to refute/argue against what you are saying?

 

But admit it you just wanted to willfully ignore what I'm saying to sneak in an insult about math (I'm well above a 4th grade level btw, thanks).

[zlemflolia]

Literally no one is trying to refute/argue against what you are saying?

 

At this point either you are speaking a language other than English, or you're intentionally trolling.  This is exactly what you and others have been saying throughout the thread:

 

" it's still a moral thing to do, even if it has no effect on the meat industry."

 

" This isn't a good comparison because if you end a slave ownership it has direct effect on the slave you set free. If you along with a small percentage of the population stop consuming meat the meat industry is not going to change their plans so there is literally zero effect."

 

"it's not having any tangible impact because a reduction in demand through people going vegan is hugely offset by growing middle class and population in countries like China and India"

 

"It hasn't had an impact on production or slaughter"

 

-You and darichestrerung

 

My actual last post on the topic

[Hugh Mughnus]

... until the next one

 

lol.

 

I just literally don't understand his angle?

 

We have almost unanimously agreed that decreasing or ceasing meat consumption is moral.

 

We agree that not eating an animal means another animal wasn't eaten.

 

The stats show increasing meat production and slaughter worldwide (which according to Zeff doesn't matter)

 

But veganism has had a statistically significant impact on meat production and slaughter? (despite the stats)

 

   

 

 

Help me understand.

 

Edit: understanding that I don't think anyone here is advocating against veganism or vege, we've questioned practical challenges to adopting it but that's it..

[auxien]

edit: i'm an idiot for trying to post in this thread and if I ever try and post in this thread again please call me an idiot and ignore anything I said

[Hugh Mughnus]

Awesome, I agree? 

 

What's your point?

 

Again, not advocating in the slightest against it. Simple discussion on how market forces are more powerful than the vegan and vege movement and the market needs to hit a critical mass at some point where overall production and slaughter stops. The numbers aren't lying. Unfortunately at this point the movement has not decreased overall rates of meat consumption.

 

THIS is seriously very simple.