Recording to tape

[Berk]

Ah yes thx danny

[TubularCorporation]

Still interested in getting a smaller X-track cassette model - anyone recommend any in particular, or know what sort of prices I should be aiming for?

 

It isn't "small" by any stretch of the imagination, but if you can track down a well maintained Tascam 234 they're a mighty force. I had one for a few years and still regret having to sell it.

 

Other than that, I'm still using my old Tascam 424 (the original grey one) and it still works great, far outlasted the MKII I saved up for in high school as an "upgrade," survived some hard abuse at the hands of a friend I gave it to for a few years, and I swear by it. They're pretty inexpensive I believe, although I haven't looked recently. The one issue they (I think all protastudios, in fact) have is that the capstan motor spins continuously whenever it's powered on, whether it's playing or not, and that can lead to them failing if the machine is left on continuously. When I was in college one of our labs used old 424s as headphone mixers and the capstan motors needed to be replaced once or twice a year because of people leaving them powered on when they weren't being used, often over night. I've never personally had trouble, though.

[TRiP]

id reckon you'd get a lot more interesting /noteworthy results by running something hot onto better quality tape like that.

Duly noted! I shall also make sure to fuck up a few ratty cheaper tapes and compare results with them too.

 

When i was doing some video work a while back i opened up the VCR and applied pressure to the heads while they were playing - created some cool visual effects - but may just cause audio drop-outs :( ... but who knows! experimenting is what makes it all fun.

 

 

Still interested in getting a smaller X-track cassette model - anyone recommend any in particular, or know what sort of prices I should be aiming for?

 

It isn't "small" by any stretch of the imagination, but if you can track down a well maintained Tascam 234 they're a mighty force. I had one for a few years and still regret having to sell it.

 

Other than that, I'm still using my old Tascam 424 (the original grey one) and it still works great, far outlasted the MKII I saved up for in high school as an "upgrade," survived some hard abuse at the hands of a friend I gave it to for a few years, and I swear by it. They're pretty inexpensive I believe, although I haven't looked recently. The one issue they (I think all protastudios, in fact) have is that the capstan motor spins continuously whenever it's powered on, whether it's playing or not, and that can lead to them failing if the machine is left on continuously. When I was in college one of our labs used old 424s as headphone mixers and the capstan motors needed to be replaced once or twice a year because of people leaving them powered on when they weren't being used, often over night. I've never personally had trouble, though.

 

 

Thanking you! Shall keep an eye out.

[TubularCorporation]

Another thing to keep in mind is that if you plan to run your signal to tape hot, don't use any noise reduction (at least not DBX). Since it compresses the audio before it hits tape, you actually lose a lot of the actual tape compression and saturation (although you'll still get some).

 

Also, the preamps on the original 424 sound pretty great when you overdrive them. Not good, but great, if you know what I mean. Especially on bass.

[Danny O Flannagin]

Kind of a side note but i was reading an article in Sound on Sound from the 90s and they were writing about the pros and cons of a bunch of different multitrack tape recorders. Mine, the Yamaha MT50 used to go for almost 400 pounds making it an amateur studio centerpiece. Bought it used for 20 bucks. Funny how quickly technology moves in and our of our lives

 

here's the article:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1997_articles/may97/portaroundup.html

[peace 7]

One good thing about living in the future, is that you can affordably live in the past.

 

For DAW to tape to DAW, mixing the tape version in like 35% can maybe give the best of both worlds, but there might be timing issues.

 

My first demos in the late 90's were cassette tape... Nostalgia.

 

Listening to your own music on cassette tape makes it automagically sound pro, if your mixing isn't muddy garbage.

 

TAPE~~~

[ZoeB]

'Sample Rate' is more to do with the digital domain, literally how many snippets of a discrete amplitude points per second. It'd be more tape recording speed I guess, usually measured in IPS (inches per second) - it does alter the sound quality but not in the same kind of way as with decreasing sample rate

 

Yeah, they're different things and the phrase "sample rate" is for digital only... but having said that, they're pretty much equivalent. With a slower analogue tape speed, and a lower sample rate, you should get pretty much the exact same effect: a lower cutoff point of a lowpass filter, in effect, so it sounds more muffled. Lowering the IPS on an analogue tape will do this. Lowering the sample rate on a good digital recorder will too. A bad digital recorder would simply introduce aliasing, but that's the recorder's fault for not running the signal through a lowpass filter first.

 

So yeah, they're different, but totally analogous and when done right, basically the same. :)

 

Similarly, tape width and sample resolution are analogous. Increasing these should lower the noise floor, improving the signal to noise ratio.

[Haste]

I feel there is so much myth flying around about tape, especially cassette these days. The results vary widely depending on the equipment involved, and the way they are used. The whole 'cassette is lo-fi' or even worse 'cassette is crap because of hiss' or whatever. It's not universal truth. Those statements are understandable, but not definitive. The technology was starting to get quite good around about the time cd's took over in the 90s and cassette was killed off. Still, it's more of an individual experience depending on the gear you use. My tape player is quite clean and clear sounding for example, which is quite boring!

[Guest Chesney]

There are myths that any equipment given praise will miraculously make you sound amazing.

Whether it's tape, analogue synths, Valve pre and classic ouboards that cost the earth.

If your mix is not that good, you can't fix it with any gear. If anything it will sound worse.

Tape is a great tool but if the input is poop then it will glue your poop up like the morning after a boozy night.

[peace 7]

For extra analog lushness, what you gotta do is glue several random vacuum tubes to your Sony Walkman, like so:

 

 

 

So lush, girls murder for the wang.

[th555]

For extra analog lushness, what you gotta do is glue several random vacuum tubes to your Sony Walkman, like so:

 

 

 

So lush, girls murder for the wang.

Flol

I should try that.

[Berk]

just found this sweet tape deck (Philips N2542) in my local thrift store for less than a tenner. recorded a DAW track to it and it sounds pretty decent

 

[LimpyLoo]

damn, nice find

[awepittance]

its seriously impossible to find any tape players/recorders at most thrift stores in the san francisco bay area these days besides maybe a walkmen. after tapes made a mini comeback, some smart fuckers keep cleaning out all the thrift stores

[peace 7]

its seriously impossible to find any tape players/recorders at most thrift stores in the san francisco bay area these days besides maybe a walkmen. after tapes made a mini comeback, some smart fuckers keep cleaning out all the thrift stores

 

The only way to stay one step ahead of the game is to buy up all the thrift stores in the area.

 

"Timothy, what is this? WHAT IS THIS?! What are all these loan approvals using our farm as collateral? And all these signed contracts handing over leases to several dozen thrift shops?! WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME ABOUT THIS?!?!?!"

 

"I..... I needed a Walkmans."

 

"A what?!"

 

"A Walkmans."

[Phlexunger]

the best of both worlds is to get a tape player with not so great quality tape heads that has a cue mode AFTER it hits the tape, this way you can actually use a tape recorder dirty effect as a real-time send effect in a DAW. I don't have a tape player that does this but my friend does and makes his stuff sound like its on tape without ever actually having to bounce it and put it back onto the computer. The key is to find a tape player fucked up enough or poor enough heads that it gives you the hiss/distortion/warble that you want, but you're more likely to find this on a low quality/lowend tape recorder. I think some of the nakamichi's have real-time cue mode, but I know very little about tape machines.

 

the best of both worlds is to get a tape player with not so great quality tape heads that has a cue mode AFTER it hits the tape, this way you can actually use a tape recorder dirty effect as a real-time send effect in a DAW. I don't have a tape player that does this but my friend does and makes his stuff sound like its on tape without ever actually having to bounce it and put it back onto the computer. The key is to find a tape player fucked up enough or poor enough heads that it gives you the hiss/distortion/warble that you want, but you're more likely to find this on a low quality/lowend tape recorder. I think some of the nakamichi's have real-time cue mode, but I know very little about tape machines.

this sounds interesting as an effect but I don't think it gives the full color and warmth that tape does...This method sounds more like a way to dirty up a super clean synth sound or a sound that is too digital. I think the warmth of tape is not just about hitting the tape heads but more about the pre amps that might be in a deck or in some case transistors as well as the tape itself. The best use of tape over a computer is saturation and pushing volume something you just can not do on a computer and in my opinion that no plugin can duplicate. Tape is a great addition to your studio

 

I recommend getting a tascam 464 porta two

it has 4 outs and its a good place to start stemming out like you explained you want to.

If you like the sound you might want to get into more high quality reel to reel machines

1/4" or half inch the issue then becomes about cost as each song you record will be an investment in reels

and space in your home. One thing I will say if you store it right tape can be more a reliable back up than a HD

 

I just bought a rack mountable Vestax 4 track for my apt studio that is away from my main studio

that houses the tascam I recommended plus a few reel to reels in it. I like that tape that much

 

but you have to be careful not to become this guy

[kinski]

i switched to all analog set-up and started recording to tape recently, and i must say the results are kind of amazing. i'm using a yamaha mt8x. here's a quick demo i did to heck the general fidelity and i must say it sounds just great. very clear. i was expecting cassette 8tracks to sound like shit because feeding 8 tracks on something that is designed to carry only 4 looks like a total clusterfuck. but it's actually pretty faithfull to what i twiddled on the synths.

 

fun fact: the part of tape i recorded on turned light-brown.

 

the only problem is synchronization. every synth i own uses different one so it's very hard, but it's worth it.

 

and i really like the slowness of the working process. makes you rething everything twice.

[awepittance]

 

the best of both worlds is to get a tape player with not so great quality tape heads that has a cue mode AFTER it hits the tape, this way you can actually use a tape recorder dirty effect as a real-time send effect in a DAW. I don't have a tape player that does this but my friend does and makes his stuff sound like its on tape without ever actually having to bounce it and put it back onto the computer. The key is to find a tape player fucked up enough or poor enough heads that it gives you the hiss/distortion/warble that you want, but you're more likely to find this on a low quality/lowend tape recorder. I think some of the nakamichi's have real-time cue mode, but I know very little about tape machines.

 

the best of both worlds is to get a tape player with not so great quality tape heads that has a cue mode AFTER it hits the tape, this way you can actually use a tape recorder dirty effect as a real-time send effect in a DAW. I don't have a tape player that does this but my friend does and makes his stuff sound like its on tape without ever actually having to bounce it and put it back onto the computer. The key is to find a tape player fucked up enough or poor enough heads that it gives you the hiss/distortion/warble that you want, but you're more likely to find this on a low quality/lowend tape recorder. I think some of the nakamichi's have real-time cue mode, but I know very little about tape machines.

this sounds interesting as an effect but I don't think it gives the full color and warmth that tape does...This method sounds more like a way to dirty up a super clean synth sound or a sound that is too digital. I think the warmth of tape is not just about hitting the tape heads but more about the pre amps that might be in a deck or in some case transistors as well as the tape itself. The best use of tape over a computer is saturation and pushing volume something you just can not do on a computer and in my opinion that no plugin can duplicate. Tape is a great addition to your studio

 

I recommend getting a tascam 464 porta two

it has 4 outs and its a good place to start stemming out like you explained you want to.

If you like the sound you might want to get into more high quality reel to reel machines

1/4" or half inch the issue then becomes about cost as each song you record will be an investment in reels

and space in your home. One thing I will say if you store it right tape can be more a reliable back up than a HD

 

I just bought a rack mountable Vestax 4 track for my apt studio that is away from my main studio

that houses the tascam I recommended plus a few reel to reels in it. I like that tape that much

 

but you have to be careful not to become this guy

 

you are right, you're not going to get the full effect of 'dirty tape' however you can use the method I described as a quasi real-time effects send coming from a DAW (there will be a small delay of course).

[joshuatxuk]

Good thread! For anyone wanting to know literally everything possible about compact cassette tapes, this is the place to check out: tapeheads.net FYI they are audiophile-ish so I wouldn't go there for lo-fi tips and tricks but it's an excellent resource for recording on cassette otherwise.

 

Couple basic pointers I can share with cassettes:

- A little tape saturation is nice, but I would always do a trial and error test before you commit to a certain level. Peaks on type I tape should be 0-1db, but if its sounds good you can push it a bit more, like 2-3+ db. For chrome and metal tapes you can easily go 4-5+ db in the red, maybe even 6 or 7. But too much and it will distort a lot, though this might be something you desire.

- Use C-60s or lower for multi-track recording.

- C-90s or lower when it comes to recording in general. C-100s, C-110s, C-120s are thinner and meant for long mixtapes more than anything else.

- Type I tapes (the most common - normal bias) are often better for bass and low-end. Lot of hip-hop tapes sound excellent on type I. I would keep in mind that "voice recording" tapes like cheap store brand tapes are often noisy and easily distorted, whereas good brands like older TDKs, Maxells, etc. sound quite good.

- Type II (chrome) capture highs a lot better, so if you're doing stuff with dynamic sound, high-end synth or acoustic bits, etc. this is a much better choice. Type II is ideal for your master recordings, not sampling or trickery with tape "effects"

- Type IV is often the best of the best but it's expensive, rare and wears your tape heads a lot, so even those who like them use them sparingly. Some say it's overrated. I've also heard it's not good for Tascam 4-track and similar recorders.

- Noise reduction is tricky and an art in itself. Dolby varies a lot. Dolby NR was first, then Dolby B and C. Dolby B is the most common and useful. Remember Dolby only works on playback if it's originally recorded in Dolby mode. DBX and Dolby HX are well-regarded but honestly I doubt many would fine use of it here. If you really need no noise in recording, go with digital. That's why it took over tape in the first place.

I don't know much about reel to reel on 1/4, 1/2 or 1 inch tape or multitracks I'm afraid.

 

I've been dumping mixes to S-VHS lately, good quality video equipment is amazingly cheap right now and S-VHS has a really nice sound

 

I've heard that, S-VHS is quite hi-fi in context. VHS HQ is really good too, especially with a nice player. I have a JVC vcr that has VHS-HQ recording capability and actually lets you monitor audio in for recording for both L and R channels. I used it to make a master tape of my friends punk band and while I pushed the tape saturation a bit too much it still sounded fucking booming and heavy.

 

the best of both worlds is to get a tape player with not so great quality tape heads that has a cue mode AFTER it hits the tape, this way you can actually use a tape recorder dirty effect as a real-time send effect in a DAW. I don't have a tape player that does this but my friend does and makes his stuff sound like its on tape without ever actually having to bounce it and put it back onto the computer. The key is to find a tape player fucked up enough or poor enough heads that it gives you the hiss/distortion/warble that you want, but you're more likely to find this on a low quality/lowend tape recorder. I think some of the nakamichi's have real-time cue mode, but I know very little about tape machines.

 

Are you talking about 3-head decks? Those let you monitor the sound as you record, whereas on 2-head decks you can't hear the results until playback afterward. 3-head decks are usually pretty hi-fi but some old 70s and 80s era 3-head decks are more mid-fi and noisy.

 

Btw does anyone know any places where I can still get some tapes for a reasonable price? Preferably Type II

 

I've checked tapeline.info but shipping is around 23 euros when I only want to order 10 cassettes.

 

On ebay some people are selling type IIs, but they're asking 4-6 euros a piece.....

 

Can't say for UK/EU. In the USA and Canada NAC, duplication.ca, and AtoZ still sell type IIs of different kinds, usually newer colbolt or chrome formulas. Some hi-fi stereo shops sell new chrome tapes too. But yeah vintage new old stock tapes have skyrocketed in price.

 

You can just go to thrift stores or garage sales which are usually less than a dollar and record over those

 

Yes, and lightly used type IIs or vintage type I tapes (Maxell, BASF, TDK) are pretty good. Late 80s/early 90s especially. Tapes got kinda cheap mid-90s onward and likewise older blank tapes are more likely to be either warped or worn out.

 

I feel there is so much myth flying around about tape, especially cassette these days. The results vary widely depending on the equipment involved, and the way they are used. The whole 'cassette is lo-fi' or even worse 'cassette is crap because of hiss' or whatever. It's not universal truth. Those statements are understandable, but not definitive. The technology was starting to get quite good around about the time cd's took over in the 90s and cassette was killed off. Still, it's more of an individual experience depending on the gear you use. My tape player is quite clean and clear sounding for example, which is quite boring!

 

That's what I love about cassette tape - it's so diverse and varied: dolby, different types, different types of players, quality of heads, quality of whether the deck is cleaned and demagnetized, tape warble from bad belts, wow and flutter from iffy old cassette case spools, tapes that have been out in the sun or stored for years, etc.

 

It's funny, a lot of bandwagon cassette "fans" are so much about the novelty they don't even bother with stereo decks and/or run twee indie rock bandcamp labels with duplicators because in their view nobody actually cares about the sound.

 

its seriously impossible to find any tape players/recorders at most thrift stores in the san francisco bay area these days besides maybe a walkmen. after tapes made a mini comeback, some smart fuckers keep cleaning out all the thrift stores

 

Austin is the same way, I've lucked out and scored entry-level Nakamichis twice but most of them time I find dual decks they're pretty shitty and belts are out. When I first looked 4 years ago for a deck they were practically lining the walls of goodwills.

 

Actually anything remotely vintage is bought flipped and/or sold fast. In fact up until a year ago a dude literally bought up every silver face receiver and turntable, restored them, and opened a store. Bit ridiculous but at least they weren't just thrown out. I hear stories about people finding Marantz in fucking dumpsters a long time ago, but that's definitely not the case anymore.