Occupy Oakland confronted with tear gas

[Guest Z_B_Z]

well who knows how many have actually read the comic, but the fact that its root is an ultimately subversive piece of literature/graphic art warms my heart.

[Guest boo]

i know a kid who has one of those masks (and most definitely wears it for protests and stuff) and he has indeed read v for vendetta.

[awepittance]

you're saying it in support of what I said, has nothing to do with the fact that it's annoying as shit. i just keep hearing about v for vendetta, and I see the masks everywhere. this isn't fiction, this is life. take your masks off, show who you are, and be proud that you're a part of this movement. please.

 

and I know it was a comic book, but I'm fairly certain that the majority of kids wearing the mask never read the comic.

 

i agree because the comic has a much more subversive and complicated message in it, down to the reason why V chose to wear a Guy Fawkes mask int he first place, a man who was an anti protestant catholic.

The next comic Moore wrote after V took the idea of a 'revolution' even further, where Miracle-man becomes the ruler of the entire planet earth and creates a Utopia, but after the Utopia is created the comic shifts your perspective to see it as merely a new form of totalitarianism albeit different from the one before the aliens and Miracleman took over.

 

the movie version of V tries to distill down and make the kernel of the overall message that youth of today can relate to, which is why they chose gay rights as a focus in the film version (in the comic it was never specified intentionally WHO Was being persecuted against and why, it was much more artfully done imo)

[kcinsu]

it's fine to be inspired by this stuff, it just seems juvenile to dress up in it. not to mention that these masks are sold by massive corporations themselves...

 

and i'm sure some people made their own, but again, I bet most of them are purchased.

 

get off materialism! you dont need accessories to have a movement.

[Guest Z_B_Z]

yeah i can see where youre coming from but i love that comic so much that im happy to see its influence in any form..

[sup]

i was thinking all this stuff to try to come up with how to solve the worlds problems. then it hit!!! what if we make the BAD GUYS (ppl runing the show - bankers, polititians, media, ppl who trade stocks and stuff, corporations, obama) turn on themselfs. this is there strat against us (eg. racism, social politic issues like abortion). so i wonder how do we make them turn on themselfs? maybe use the ppl's media (blogs and stuff) to propagandate some of the bad guys helped the occupation movement like say mitch romney donated a billion dollars to make tents in oakland. i dunno what are ur ideas. i think not argueing about nonimportant stuff is good instead we must find a solution together

 

vote for richie ball 2011

[Guest Z_B_Z]

hahahahahahahahahahahaha youre an idiot

[sup]

i think u will find im smart

[sheatheman]

i was thinking all this stuff to try to come up with how to solve the worlds problems. then it hit!!! what if we make the BAD GUYS (ppl runing the show - bankers, polititians, media, ppl who trade stocks and stuff, corporations, obama) turn on themselfs. this is there strat against us (eg. racism, social politic issues like abortion). so i wonder how do we make them turn on themselfs? maybe use the ppl's media (blogs and stuff) to propagandate some of the bad guys helped the occupation movement like say mitch romney donated a billion dollars to make tents in oakland. i dunno what are ur ideas. i think not argueing about nonimportant stuff is good instead we must find a solution together

 

vote for richie ball 2011

 

i think that is a good idea.

 

you know there actually is a town called Coolville in Ohio. I live like 40 minutes away from it.

[sup]

i was thinking all this stuff to try to come up with how to solve the worlds problems. then it hit!!! what if we make the BAD GUYS (ppl runing the show - bankers, polititians, media, ppl who trade stocks and stuff, corporations, obama) turn on themselfs. this is there strat against us (eg. racism, social politic issues like abortion). so i wonder how do we make them turn on themselfs? maybe use the ppl's media (blogs and stuff) to propagandate some of the bad guys helped the occupation movement like say mitch romney donated a billion dollars to make tents in oakland. i dunno what are ur ideas. i think not argueing about nonimportant stuff is good instead we must find a solution together

 

vote for richie ball 2011

 

i think that is a good idea.

 

you know there actually is a town called Coolville in Ohio. I live like 40 minutes away from it.

we should chill some time

[lumpenprol]

when the real riots and protests start going down, it will be obvious to everyone. This ain't it yet...

[Guest Z_B_Z]

i dont rule out the fact that shit could turn violent despite the best of intentions.. although i refuse to be involved in it.. after all, we're taliking about the (actual) decline of the west here..

[chenGOD]

and do you really want to live your life in a war zone? rubber bullets and tear gas is so fucking low on the violence scale, when you look at what COULD be done... if it really escalates to a violent revolution...

 

Just had to mention that when I was in the middle of the stupidest riots in the world (go Vancouver) I overheard some fuckwits saying "Oh man it's just like Iraq!". I couldn't help but snicker.

[Guest Z_B_Z]

yeah.. we're all up in arms over some very light (although still repugnant) abuse of authority, and these young men and women in the middle east and africa, while still retaining a somewhat similar viewpoint to those in the west, are getting killed. not hit with rubber bullets, not beaten with batons, but are getting fucking shot in the head with real bullets... kind of puts thing in perspective..

[chenGOD]

I meant it more as an observation that some people want to feel that they're living in a war zone. I'm not condoning what the police did (especially that asshole that threw the tear gas into the crowd of people trying to help that injured dude) - but yeah a little perspective would be nice.

[Atop]

Alan Moore warms my cakes.

[Guest Z_B_Z]

fag

[digit]

this OWS movement is nothing compared to the massive global protests that took place against the Iraq war some years back. remember that shit? millions and millions of people packing the streets in pretty much every major city all over the world. i had never seen anything like it. it was entirely non-violent and extensively covered by the media.

 

and what did that accomplish? absolutely nothing. 2011 and we are still in Iraq / Afghanistan.

 

 

you think Goldman Sachs gives a flying fuck if a bunch of hippies freeze to death in a park in New York this winter? You think Bank of America gives a fuck if a bunch of people are running around fighting cops and getting tear gassed in Oakland?

 

these protestors 'occupy' parks and protest in the streets but what they never seem to realize is that in this case there is no power in the streets! there is no power in fighting the police. in fact, the powers that be love it when people engage with the cops because then they are not focusing on the 'man behind the curtain', so to speak. yes, some of those cops are out of control assholes, but lets be realistic: they are not the ones creating the massive economic problems we are having.

 

in this case, the powers that be are multinational financial entities. voting for this person or that person is obviously not going to accomplish anything here since the entire political system in this country (and to a large degree everywhere else) is compromised by the money and influence that these entities have accrued. the only way you are going to get them to substantially change their policies is by directly affecting the bottom line: their money.

 

 

2 ways to do that:

 

1. general strike.

a great tactic but has to be sustained and nation-wide, not just one city on one day (tho blocking the port of Oakland was an interesting move). a lot of people all have to be on the same page and committed for this to work. you also have to have a very coherent list of conditions to be met for ending the strike. the problem here is that the 'drop-out' rate is likely to be high and a lot of mom & pop businesses can be hurt as well.

 

 

2. boycott / de-investment.

the recent 'Move Your Money Day' is an excellent example of this & is right on target. 10 people moving their money from a big bank to a credit union and closing their accounts is going to have far more impact than 1000 people chanting on a street somewhere. we need more things like this.

 

 

tl;dr: protesting is a waste of time and energy. organize on the internet. use economic means to attack economic entities. hit them in their wallets.

[Guest Z_B_Z]

im sorry but im completely sick of this cynical viewpoint that protesting cant change things. this shit is only two months old and its already helped to create a world wide dialogue in mainstream and non mainstream media. that alone is an accomplishment. theres still the tenancy to think that thousands of people coming together in one place is just a big show and accomplishes nothing but youre wrong. this wouldnt even be a topic on this message board had it not happened. have a little respect for the people sleeping in the streets. realize that this shit will not happen over night and try to think about what you have in common with people protesting and not what your differences with them are. of course this has happened in other parts of the world, with more people and with more risks to their safety, but that should be an inspiration, not a detriment.

[SR4]

this OWS movement is nothing compared to the massive global protests that took place against the Iraq war some years back. remember that shit? millions and millions of people packing the streets in pretty much every major city all over the world. i had never seen anything like it. it was entirely non-violent and extensively covered by the media.

 

and what did that accomplish? absolutely nothing. 2011 and we are still in Iraq / Afghanistan.

 

 

you think Goldman Sachs gives a flying fuck if a bunch of hippies freeze to death in a park in New York this winter? You think Bank of America gives a fuck if a bunch of people are running around fighting cops and getting tear gassed in Oakland?

 

these protestors 'occupy' parks and protest in the streets but what they never seem to realize is that in this case there is no power in the streets! there is no power in fighting the police. in fact, the powers that be love it when people engage with the cops because then they are not focusing on the 'man behind the curtain', so to speak. yes, some of those cops are out of control assholes, but lets be realistic: they are not the ones creating the massive economic problems we are having.

 

in this case, the powers that be are multinational financial entities. voting for this person or that person is obviously not going to accomplish anything here since the entire political system in this country (and to a large degree everywhere else) is compromised by the money and influence that these entities have accrued. the only way you are going to get them to substantially change their policies is by directly affecting the bottom line: their money.

 

 

2 ways to do that:

 

1. general strike.

a great tactic but has to be sustained and nation-wide, not just one city on one day (tho blocking the port of Oakland was an interesting move). a lot of people all have to be on the same page and committed for this to work. you also have to have a very coherent list of conditions to be met for ending the strike. the problem here is that the 'drop-out' rate is likely to be high and a lot of mom & pop businesses can be hurt as well.

 

if the general strike could be pulled off, it would have innumerable effects on our society....and most i believe would be in the positive..to demonstrate in the best way possible how much power the "99%" truly have over those in power...but like you said, how do you organize this, much less sustain it?

 

occupy is at least a good start in, like ZBZ said, entering the idea into the mainstream.

 

i think it would be naive to say occupy is going to in of itself become a monolith of change. but it is just as naive to claim the occupy movement is doing absolutely nothing/has no effect.

[awepittance]

this OWS movement is nothing compared to the massive global protests that took place against the Iraq war some years back. remember that shit? millions and millions of people packing the streets in pretty much every major city all over the world. i had never seen anything like it. it was entirely non-violent and extensively covered by the media.

 

and what did that accomplish? absolutely nothing. 2011 and we are still in Iraq / Afghanistan.

 

i think this is something entirely different. The thing the mainstream media uses to paint the movement negatively, that it doesn't have one single cohesive message actually works to it's strength and makes it something bigger than the war protests.

While you are right that protestors were in greater numbers, the only port shutdown attempt i know of also happened during an Oakland anti iraq war protest, and i believe someone was almost killed by a rubber bullet. The shutdown in other words was not successful like it was on 11-2-11

Seeing all those people climbing over trucks and making human chains blocking the trucks is something i will never forget.

The undercurrent of the 99% phenomenon i think includes a lot of the anti war anger, the lies about WMDs, the unsettling lingering questions people still have about 9/11, the fact that elites in this country are immune to the justice system while the justice system imposed on the 99.9% is more draconion than ever, we have the highest incarceration rate in the world, all of this undercurrent of resentment all happening during a looming economic crisis. The Iraq war created a few temporary well organized huge protests with a lot of money being funneled in by the democratic party (back then they wanted to take Bush down and the anti war movement was a perfect place to dovetail into). This movement has sprung out of a slowly building powerless feeling that our democratic process at least on a federal level is broken. I think it's a message almost every American can relate to on some level, which is why i have optimism about what the future holds for it.

[SR4]

very well said.

[awepittance]

but it is just as naive to claim the occupy movement is doing absolutely nothing/has no effect.

 

i think at least what i've seen in the political scene is that it's given people a glimmer of hope, real hope not fakey Obama hope that people can actually have a push-back effect on the behemoth of the system within a matter of weeks with no overall big money funding. Only time will tell how many people seize the momentum that it could potentially have, but im definitely not the only cynic about our system who has seen this as a very hopeful event.

[Guest Z_B_Z]

this OWS movement is nothing compared to the massive global protests that took place against the Iraq war some years back. remember that shit? millions and millions of people packing the streets in pretty much every major city all over the world. i had never seen anything like it. it was entirely non-violent and extensively covered by the media.

 

and what did that accomplish? absolutely nothing. 2011 and we are still in Iraq / Afghanistan.

 

i think this is something entirely different. The thing the mainstream media uses to paint the movement negatively, that it doesn't have one single cohesive message actually works to it's strength and makes it something bigger than the war protests.

While you are right that protestors were in greater numbers, the only port shutdown attempt i know of also happened during an Oakland anti iraq war protest, and i believe someone was almost killed by a rubber bullet. The shutdown in other words was not successful like it was on 11-2-11

Seeing all those people climbing over trucks and making human chains blocking the trucks is something i will never forget.

The undercurrent of the 99% phenomenon i think includes a lot of the anti war anger, the lies about WMDs, the unsettling lingering questions people still have about 9/11, the fact that elites in this country are immune to the justice system while the justice system imposed on the 99.9% is more draconion than ever, we have the highest incarceration rate in the world, all of this undercurrent of resentment all happening during a looming economic crisis. The Iraq war created a few temporary well organized huge protests with a lot of money being funneled in by the democratic party (back then they wanted to take Bush down and the anti war movement was a perfect place to dovetail into). This movement has sprung out of a slowly building powerless feeling that our democratic process at least on a federal level is broken. I think it's a message almost every American can relate to on some level, which is why i have optimism about what the future holds for it.

 

well said indeed. wish i coudve been there..

[digit]

i hope you all are right. just to clarify i fully support most of the goals of the OWS movement but i am cynical about the real-world effect of street protests ( and just a cynical person in general ) and think these people need to think more about their tactics. it's also a fact that cash-strapped Oakland is spending a fuck-ton of money on security for these protests. again, that's not money that's coming out of Goldman Sachs pocket. local businesses are getting screwed down there.

 

i've seen a hell of a lot of protests in recent years but not a lot of change ( other than change for the worse ). people come out, they blow off some steam, then they go home and everything is the same as it was yesterday. at some point the protests / signs / chants / etc. needs to translate into some sort of sustained action that has a direct effect on the targets in question.