azatoth Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Have there really been serious debates outside the blogosphere? Considering that the campaigns and elections take a ridiculous amount of time, one would think that there would be time for some serious debates where the candidates could elaborate on their policies for longer than 30 second sound bytes in dumb high-school type debates. Here in Finland we'll soon have our presidential elections, the campaigning started sometime at the end of November and we'll have a new president by the latest in early February. I think I would go mad if I had to listen to campaigning for more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenGOD Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I think there has been more discussion, I don't have much to back that up, beyond a gut feeling - but activity on facebook amongst even my small subset of American friends shows an increased awareness of politics and how important it is to exercise your vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted January 1, 2012 Author Share Posted January 1, 2012 I agree with that for sure Robbie - there has been some much needed debate - the question is will it prove fruitful? i think simply based on what i've seen and heard in the last month it already has proven fruitful. A party that has as long as i can remember been totally lock step in all beliefs i see becoming fractured at a very fast rate. I think ron paul's advancement in the 2012 race has changed forever the things that people are 'allowed' to openly speak out about in america. Right now at least the terms 'american empire' 'police state' 'mass murder' in regards to America aren't that far away from the mainstream like they used to be. Ron Paul's involvement in this race has only brought them closer to the mainstream. I very much believe the positive impact of it is being felt all over the media, in little ways. They ignored him for far too long and now it's back fired on them. And if eugune is reading they = the people in control of the narrative that the RNC and DNC follow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted January 1, 2012 Author Share Posted January 1, 2012 I don't see anyone thinking that Obama is NOT okay with imperialism I just think that Paul is not the answer to said imperialism. he's against imperialism for all the wrong reasons and on top of that he would set this country back 100 years on social issues and top of THAT he'd let the poor starve to death as the rich use their frail broken bodies to power their luxury airships. I don't think ron paul is the answer either, but without his involvement in the race not a single candidate would bring up issues like our disastrous foreign policy and our destruction of civil liberties. That in an of itself is a benefit to having someone like him in the race. you can make an equally scary/frightening representation of where another 4 years of Obama will take us as well. Pointing out Paul's negatives is fine to me, i just think a lot of the people who have the tendency to do it overwhelmingly ignore Obama's negatives. I just think the criticisms should apply equally across the board. A lot of his policies especially economic ones i vehemently disagree with, i think they are rooted in fantasy. When it comes to imperialism though, everything i've heard him say i agree with 95%. I take issue with you saying that he's against imperalism for the wrong reasons when he constantly brings up the fact that killing innocent people from bombing campaigns is morally wrong at it's core (something Obama would never do even as a candidate). So you'll have to explain why you think he's anti imperialism for the 'wrong' reasons, maybe you can tell me what you think the right reasons are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marf Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 America just doesn't lean left in reality. Obama was too radical. Too European maybe for America. Paul is radical in the way America can stomach. Right leaning principles. No Nanny state policies that America so pretends to hate but in reality loves to cling to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YO303 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Give Americans Jesus and Meth and they'll be content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GORDO Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 As a total outsider who only follows this from the interwebspheres I don't see much of a difference since his 2008 campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR4 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Obama was too radical. fucking LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraveGlitcher Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Ha! Give Americans Jesus and Meth and they'll be content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshuatxuk Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 The sudden surge of Santorum in the polls has officially made me conclude the media is on board with derailing Ron Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 lol, you stole the words out of my motuh. I was just watching on tv literally as i read your comment that 'Santorum is in #3' so it must mean he somehow will win Iowa if the Christians can't vote mormon. that's one thing people are forgetting about Romney is that quite a lot of christians see Mormonism as a very bat-shit religion, i think from an evangelical point of view if you know your shit , the jewish/muslim religions have more in common with your faith than Mormonism does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest disparaissant Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 When it comes to imperialism though, everything i've heard him say i agree with 95%. I take issue with you saying that he's against imperalism for the wrong reasons when he constantly brings up the fact that killing innocent people from bombing campaigns is morally wrong at it's core (something Obama would never do even as a candidate). So you'll have to explain why you think he's anti imperialism for the 'wrong' reasons, maybe you can tell me what you think the right reasons are? honestly not in the mood to make this serious and bring up quotes and whatnot but over the last 8-10 years his rhetoric re: imperialism has changed dramatically. it's my belief that he's simply playing into the ideals of actual anti-imperialists. when you look at his policies on the homefront - his economic ideas, corporate deregulation, getting rid of a lot of federal social protections - he is very much a proponent of a different kind of imperialism, and his external anti-imperialism, to me anyways, just seems like sugar-coated isolationism for progressives. i guess to be more succinct, i don't honestly believe he gives a shit about brown and black and otherwise disadvantaged people on the other side of the world when he shows an open disdain for brown and black and otherwise disadvantaged people here. the stuff he's said regarding race, gender, and sexuality is just absurd and disgusting, and to me it makes his rhetoric on imperialism ring pretty fucking hollow. that said, i like the rest of what you said, you're probably right that this wouldn't be much of an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest disparaissant Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 also just to clarify a bit more, if you look at his writings from the 80s-90s and early 00s, before he was really a serious candidate for much of anything, he's clearly just an old school isolationist. framing it in an anti-imperialism light is a recent development for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 you could be right. I have no idea what the man is actually made of inside. but yeah, even if his anti imperialism is disingenuous, it still has a net benefit for making these subjects enter into the debate edit: these positions he has about America's foreign policy are so attractive that even people like Ralph Nadar and Noam Chomsky find them noteworthy. I don't think either one of them would support Ron Paul for president though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 http://www.counterpu...ed-of-ron-paul/ Wow, lots of words based around the empty concept of "the establishment". Is if there is one "the establishment" (instead of, say many with varying and often opposing interests). There are lots of good points though, but to start with "the establishment" just seems like a poor excuse to have some ghostlike abstract counterpart to win some imaginary discussion. this is true, youll find it a lot though on the more leftist media outlets you just kind of have to roll with it. I remember when i first heard the phrase 'military industrial complex' i bristled at it until i realized it was an Eisenhower quote, but yeah i totally understand the preaching the the choir-ness of starting out an article that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshuatxuk Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 lol, you stole the words out of my motuh. I was just watching on tv literally as i read your comment that 'Santorum is in #3' so it must mean he somehow will win Iowa if the Christians can't vote mormon. that's one thing people are forgetting about Romney is that quite a lot of christians see Mormonism as a very bat-shit religion, i think from an evangelical point of view if you know your shit , the jewish/muslim religions have more in common with your faith than Mormonism does. I absolutely HATE anti-Mormonism when it's from other "Christians" or singled out from other religions as somehow more "wacky." Mormons have always come off as far more sincere and well-integrated with the rest of society than evangelicals. Personally I've never met one who was either preachy or prone to judging others. People forget the only other very qualified, intelligent technocrat running in the GOP primary, Jon Huntsman, is also a Mormon. He and Romney are probably the most devout and non-hypocritical religious candidates in the bunch and they reference faith the least. So yeah, for the most part I kinda follow the Trey Parker/Matt Stone opinion of Mormons: their religion is hilariously weird, but they're a likable group of people, for the most part. http://www.counterpu...ed-of-ron-paul/ Wow, lots of words based around the empty concept of "the establishment". Is if there is one "the establishment" (instead of, say many with varying and often opposing interests). There are lots of good points though, but to start with "the establishment" just seems like a poor excuse to have some ghostlike abstract counterpart to win some imaginary discussion. this is true, youll find it a lot though on the more leftist media outlets you just kind of have to roll with it. I remember when i first heard the phrase 'military industrial complex' i bristled at it until i realized it was an Eisenhower quote, but yeah i totally understand the preaching the the choir-ness of starting out an article that way. The thing about the military industrial complex is the fact that's oft utilized in discussion of recent American foreign policy, when personally I think it's relevance is a lot more specific and obvious: the current state of American defense contract awarding and R&D has never been so expensive, corrupt, and inefficient than it is right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoodie Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 [youtubehd]-o--S_5tffY[/youtubehd] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marf Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Obama was too radical. fucking LOL i expected this. he was ran over by the republicans. He is a wimp and gullible. but do you really think he isn't a liberal? Im sure we would have had single-payer health care. Obama was up against to much opposition and he wasn't very savy why is the media talking like Romney has it in the bag? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoodie Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Obama was too radical. fucking LOL i expected this. he was ran over by the republicans. He is a wimp and gullible. but do you really think he isn't a liberal? Im sure we would have had single-payer health care. Obama was up against to much opposition and he wasn't very savy why is the media talking like Romney has it in the bag? he didn't even try to push through single payer. we could've had the public option (basically, paying into medicare iirc). we really could've. he could've gotten it through. but he didn't want to. i don't think this has anything to do with obama being "savvy." dude is smart as hell. he obviously had his interests in places other than public welfare. but now we're stuck with some half-assed system where only the insurance companies win because now everyone has to buy their product. yay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marf Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 actually. i agree. i think he is bought and paid for. like all presidents. why else would the media talk about Romney like hes already won. and it really goes the heart of the frustrations of the people in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR4 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hes a liberal (in a loose sense), but he certainly isn't radical. The guy had complete ability to push a half decent version of universal healthcare but instead stood down like a bitch and wanted to reach across the aisle. Bush and the Repubs. had almost 8 straight years of incredibly unbalanced executive and legislative power, fuck them. That was the nail in the coffin for me. The Republicans ran him over because he let them. Not to mention all the foreign policy fuckups during his admin. But why don't we blame everything on the Republicans...these real radical liberals just don't get a fair shot. Obama was too radical. fucking LOL i expected this. he was ran over by the republicans. He is a wimp and gullible. but do you really think he isn't a liberal? Im sure we would have had single-payer health care. Obama was up against to much opposition and he wasn't very savy why is the media talking like Romney has it in the bag? he didn't even try to push through single payer. we could've had the public option (basically, paying into medicare iirc). we really could've. he could've gotten it through. but he didn't want to. i don't think this has anything to do with obama being "savvy." dude is smart as hell. he obviously had his interests in places other than public welfare. but now we're stuck with some half-assed system where only the insurance companies win because now everyone has to buy their product. yay. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest disparaissant Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I absolutely HATE anti-Mormonism when it's from other "Christians" or singled out from other religions as somehow more "wacky." Mormons have always come off as far more sincere and well-integrated with the rest of society than evangelicals. Personally I've never met one who was either preachy or prone to judging others. People forget the only other very qualified, intelligent technocrat running in the GOP primary, Jon Huntsman, is also a Mormon. He and Romney are probably the most devout and non-hypocritical religious candidates in the bunch and they reference faith the least. So yeah, for the most part I kinda follow the Trey Parker/Matt Stone opinion of Mormons: their religion is hilariously weird, but they're a likable group of people, for the most part. um i dunno about that, mormonism as a religion was openly racist until 1978. they are a likeable group of people i will give you that, but a lot of america remembers a time when they weren't quite as likeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenGOD Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I absolutely HATE anti-Mormonism when it's from other "Christians" or singled out from other religions as somehow more "wacky." Mormons have always come off as far more sincere and well-integrated with the rest of society than evangelicals. Personally I've never met one who was either preachy or prone to judging others. People forget the only You've never experienced the joy of talking to one of their missionaries then.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshuatxuk Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I absolutely HATE anti-Mormonism when it's from other "Christians" or singled out from other religions as somehow more "wacky." Mormons have always come off as far more sincere and well-integrated with the rest of society than evangelicals. Personally I've never met one who was either preachy or prone to judging others. People forget the only You've never experienced the joy of talking to one of their missionaries then.... HAH Yes this is true, and I never stayed in contact with any I know during their missionary stints. The only time a couple visited my house was when I was a little kid, and my mom was like "yeah, we're already Christian blah blah." I feel like if one came by now, I'd be nice but say something like "No thanks, but it's fucking hot outside...do ya'll want a beer, I mean, soda, no shit...uh. Hmm. Need a glass of water? No? Oh ok, peace out." Still rather them visit then Jehovah's Witnesses. That sect is just godawful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshuatxuk Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 um i dunno about that, mormonism as a religion was openly racist until 1978. they are a likeable group of people i will give you that, but a lot of america remembers a time when they weren't quite as likeable. Oh yeah, and there's the Native American nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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