Music Theory

[guidewire]

So, what's the deal?

 

In theory it's safest to play within a scale?

Playing along with chords sounds the nicest?

Avoid short intervals?

[vamos scorcho]

I think the number one way to succeed in music theory and more complex composition is to follow along with the score while listening to pieces of music.

 

Start with Mozart and Schubert to get an idea of symmetry and form.

 

Then you can branch off and get more complicated with rhythm and other weird shit looking at whatever you want. Piano music, quartets.

 

 

 

In order to analyze music well you need to have a basic understanding of basic music theory. Honestly I think this is somewhat debatable, I think a lot of the old way of thinking about music theory has gone away somewhat. I think it's just good to know the basic things: scales, intervals, chord progressions. Knowing what they are. I really don't like "notes" and having to think inside the whole G sharp C flat blah blah paradigm. Piano roll. I think being raised on the whole G sharp shit and having to know all the note names made it a lot more confusing than it needed to be. More "serious" composers would probably disagree.

 

 

 

That said, it's strange how a knowledge of counterpoint can help your composition.

 

Often times fifths are really useful, going down a fifth is a good way to move forward generally. Having basic knowledge of what intervals and movements composers are using is useful to get an idea of how to employ that when you lack the "ear" to know exactly what you want at a certain time.

 

I'm not a pro in theory, and every time I've gotten lessons or read up on it I've come away a better musician. That said, I also think that it's not necessary to make great music, as certain academicians would probably think.

[vamos scorcho]

I've come to think that the absolute best way to improve at composition is to understand other composer's compositions.

[LimpyLoo]

So, what's the deal?

 

In theory it's safest to play within a scale?

Playing along with chords sounds the nicest?

Avoid short intervals?

 

Music theory isn't (or shouldn't be, at least) prescriptive: It's not designed to tell you what to do.

 

 

Rather, it's purpose is to look at the history of music and detect patterns and interpolate systems. It's essential purpose is so that everytime you sit down to play or compose music you don't have to reinvent the wheel, or so when you look at a keyboard you don't just see 12 random, unidifferentiated notes that you have no idea how to organize.

 

 

If you do delve into music theory, then don't let it limit what you do. In the battle between your ear and theory, your ear should always win out.

Edited June 11, 2013 by LimpyLoo

[mcbpete]

I'm currently working my way (slowly) through Music Theory for Computer Musicians and it's been teaching me a hell of a lot. Starts off really simple by looking at pitch, volume and rhythm and slowly builds up to scales, motives and chords, and by the end you'll be confident about Concords, Modulation, Root Movement and Intonation. So yeah, that's my recommendation if you fancied picking up a book.

[guidewire]

I had started watching this guys vids.

 

I know a certain level of theory, but I always feel like I don't know where to get more "useful" information rather than dig through tradition. i suppose it's also about process too. Some of it is also more about mentorship and having someone guide you through listening and practice.

 

That book looks like an interesting start.

 

Also maybe spending more time on http://www.musictheory.net/ too

[Guest chunky]

musicians say "hey man, i just play what sounds good" and that's fine, because if you analyse their music it's a fact that what sounds good might fit into some already defined theory

 

i found the most useful bit of theory was about the 'devil in music', or the interval that was banned from church music because it was discordant. you know, when you jam on the b and f keys and it doesn't sound as soft or lovely as c and f or c and g. think it's called augmented fourth and diminished fifth?

 

these days, you don't get banned from using a certain interval, you decide for yourself what to use. the music theory tells you that there is something called concordance and discordance, and the balance between those two concepts creates a palette that can generate thousands of musical colours.

 

that musician who says "i just play what sounds good man" - he can hear the difference without having to think about it too much. he feels it instead. like a jamaican bass player?

 

i like to use basic intervals in my tunes like perfect and minor intervals. i know some people think of that as being a cheap way to write music. but i like it and want to play it like that. before i knew much about scales and pentatonics i used to take out the discordant intervals because i understood that concept and then it would end up being a pentatonic scale anyway. so a lot of theory is about what people think sounds good in the first place.

 

theres nothing to fear from music theory but there is something to fear about academic attitudes such as "thats too simple" and "thats cheap"

 

ive heard too many tracks by people who say "ignore all theory" and then you listen and it sounds like a dull collection of found sounds edited together on a computer. the human ear and brain are designed to respond to frequencies between a certain frequency and dynamic range and it's not shameful to look at how other people over the years have responded to certain sounds or tunes or scales or intervals or whatever. it's quite a childish and purile view to want to reinvent the wheel. it's cool when people create or find something new. it sucks when artists are arrogant.

[Hugh Mughnus]

I'm currently working my way (slowly) through Music Theory for Computer Musicians and it's been teaching me a hell of a lot. Starts off really simple by looking at pitch, volume and rhythm and slowly builds up to scales, motives and chords, and by the end you'll be confident about Concords, Modulation, Root Movement and Intonation. So yeah, that's my recommendation if you fancied picking up a book.

 

does it teach you anything about arrangement/composition?

[LimpyLoo]

 

I'm currently working my way (slowly) through Music Theory for Computer Musicians and it's been teaching me a hell of a lot. Starts off really simple by looking at pitch, volume and rhythm and slowly builds up to scales, motives and chords, and by the end you'll be confident about Concords, Modulation, Root Movement and Intonation. So yeah, that's my recommendation if you fancied picking up a book.

 

does it teach you anything about arrangement/composition?

 

 

IMO there's no better way to learn those two things than analyzing music you like.

[Hugh Mughnus]

 

 

I'm currently working my way (slowly) through Music Theory for Computer Musicians and it's been teaching me a hell of a lot. Starts off really simple by looking at pitch, volume and rhythm and slowly builds up to scales, motives and chords, and by the end you'll be confident about Concords, Modulation, Root Movement and Intonation. So yeah, that's my recommendation if you fancied picking up a book.

 

does it teach you anything about arrangement/composition?

 

 

IMO there's no better way to learn those two things than analyzing music you like.

 

 

I agree but I feel I need a sort of.. jumping off point or something.

 

I can engineer quite well. I know reason inside and out.. but I can't arrange worth a shit.

 

To be honest maybe I never put an honest effort into it since I was such an alcoholic.

 

But yeah my question remains mr mcbpete does it teach anything about composition? =)

[Guest nuclearaddict]

I don't really think about music theory as set rules to follow. I just look at it as guidelines and templates of where to start if I'm stumped.

 

What helped me most was taking violin lessons for years and years. I'd play as much music as I could get my hands on. Mozart's concertos, Beethoven's sonatas and his string quartets have taught me more about music, music theory and how to write good music than any book or class could ever teach me. If you want to learn about compositions, just look at some of the sheet music from the masters. Get in their heads, try to understand why they did what they did and then apply it to your own tunes.

http://imslp.org/

[mcbpete]

StephenG - well it teaches you about chord progression, resolution of chord sequences and then teaches you about the harmonisation of those chords, counterpoint and inversion. My knowledge of musical theory is limited but in my mind all that stuff aids with composition.

 

When looking for that amazon link earlier (i bought my copy 'blindly' at a book shop) google's autocomplete came up with a pdf version of the book so you can probably have a look through it with that method.

 

As with you - production wise I've gotten quite good through self tuition but I've always felt my music has been seriously held back through a lack of formal musical theory. The other half of cubus is well versed in it but I've only got like grade I knowledge

 

(sorry, typing on a rather rattly train - hope that makes sense!)

[Hugh Mughnus]

thanks for the response man! I'm going to check it out.

[xox]

I recommend THIS ONE too.

[Guest The Bro]

My music theory is real limited. I need to know more as I feel very restricted at times when it comes to my compositions.

[rekosn]

you might find this fun

 

http://archive.org/details/onsensationsofto00helmrich

 

heheheeeheehe

[Guest chunky]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Harmony-Melody-Composition-Paul-Sturman/dp/0521569087/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1371176721&sr=8-1&keywords=harmony+melody+and+composition

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Advanced-Harmony-Melody-Composition-Sturman/dp/0521568951/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1371176721&sr=8-4&keywords=harmony+melody+and+composition

 

I recommend these books, the yellow one is enough to get you started. I remember being a teenager going through all the books in the library and being totally confused by most of the books, but these ones made everything easy to understand without being dumbed down. You don't have to be able to read music to understand most of the content, but you will miss out on the examples if you can't. I guess it's easier now you can just type in the name of the example pieces on youtube and listen. Topics are things like, melodic shape, melodic range, motives, phrases, variations of melody.

 

What alternatives are there? You could email ceephax and invite him to the pub for a drink then corner him with "hey dude, how did you write that melody in that track that was really good". j/k

 

Anybody heard of Monolog X that acid geezer? His music is very technically accomplished melodically and harmonically as well as being danceable and lovely, wonder what kind of theory he studied?

[marf]

you might find this fun

 

http://archive.org/details/onsensationsofto00helmrich

 

heheheeeheehe

 

man, i have to get this book.

[LimpyLoo]

i have alot of thoughts about theory

 

if anyone wants me to do a LimpyLoo's Tip Du Jour or two on theory

lemme know

[ZoeB]

i have alot of thoughts about theory

 

if anyone wants me to do a LimpyLoo's Tip Du Jour or two on theory

lemme know

 

Yes please!

[mcbpete]

I'm currently working my way (slowly) through Music Theory for Computer Musicians and it's been teaching me a hell of a lot. Starts off really simple by looking at pitch, volume and rhythm and slowly builds up to scales, motives and chords, and by the end you'll be confident about Concords, Modulation, Root Movement and Intonation. So yeah, that's my recommendation if you fancied picking up a book.

No doubt just a coincidence but did any of you guys venture to the Waterstones in Picadilly Circus last week to pick up a copy? A very determined looking man leaned passed me to quickly pick up a copy but was gone before I could congratulate them on their purchase!

[ryancolecreate]

I don't really think about music theory as set rules to follow. I just look at it as guidelines and templates of where to start if I'm stumped.

 

What helped me most was taking violin lessons for years and years. I'd play as much music as I could get my hands on. Mozart's concertos, Beethoven's sonatas and his string quartets have taught me more about music, music theory and how to write good music than any book or class could ever teach me. If you want to learn about compositions, just look at some of the sheet music from the masters. Get in their heads, try to understand why they did what they did and then apply it to your own tunes.

 

http://imslp.org/

 

Great tip. I do think though that without a fundamental knowledge of what is going on there simply knowing what the masters did, is not enough to really synthesize that into your own thinking. For instance I teach design at the university level, and we do several exercises where students have to analyze some existing work. This is great, but before they can effectively do this they need an understanding of the descriptive toolbox. They need the vocabulary to say "Van Gogh used complementary colors here to create emphasis and break down the figure - ground space", or "color values in the background are desaturated to give a sense of spacial depth". Without those words and concepts looking at the same works would have much less meaning.

 

I think this is really the main thing that theory will add. An uderstanding of those words and concepts which give structure to musical works.

[Hugh Mughnus]

 

I'm currently working my way (slowly) through Music Theory for Computer Musicians and it's been teaching me a hell of a lot. Starts off really simple by looking at pitch, volume and rhythm and slowly builds up to scales, motives and chords, and by the end you'll be confident about Concords, Modulation, Root Movement and Intonation. So yeah, that's my recommendation if you fancied picking up a book.

No doubt just a coincidence but did any of you guys venture to the Waterstones in Picadilly Circus last week to pick up a copy? A very determined looking man leaned passed me to quickly pick up a copy but was gone before I could congratulate them on their purchase!

 

 

Not me!

 

I did buy a copy though and it's great, thanks for the recommendation.

[Guest Rulohead32]

Just remember not to make two successive octaves or fifths ;)

[wahrk]

I feel like we've talked about theory a lot in the past, but I do enjoy a good theory discussion. However, I think most of the stuff I would say has already been said.

 

I'll be back later perhaps.