The Quinnspiracy Theory, Tropes vs. Women in Video Games & #gamergate

[chenGOD]

 

 

So how has this been evolving? Been out the loop. Can I get an update?

 

It's gone from shit to shittier.

 

Who is the main poo monster.

 

It's poo all the way down.

[Adieu]

i just biked in to say how dumb this whole thing is. if a black or asian guy had made a video about racism in video games would he have got death threats?

 

threatening to kill someone because they've pointed out that video games can be shit, insulting and two dimensional is a disgrace.

 

behaving in this kind of way just makes the point far more valid, having said that surely most of them are like 12 or something.

 

If he did he probably just did what most people do when they receive communications they don't wish to see on the internet. (hit the block/ignore button) Instead of taking twitter in attempt to cultivate sympathies and monetary enrichment by playing the victim.

i just biked in to say how dumb this whole thing is. if a black or asian guy had made a video about racism in video games would he have got death threats?

 

threatening to kill someone because they've pointed out that video games can be shit, insulting and two dimensional is a disgrace.

 

behaving in this kind of way just makes the point far more valid, having said that surely most of them are like 12 or something.

 

If he did he probably just did what most people do when they receive communications they don't wish to see on the internet. (hit the block/ignore button) Instead of taking twitter in attempt to cultivate sympathies and monetary enrichment by playing the victim.

[skotosa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MxqSwzFy5w

[whylessness]

[Hoodie]

[youtubehd]5RVlCvBd21w[/youtubehd]

[Hoodie]

if you watch anything on the #GamerGate topic, watch this video. it's amazing.

[eugene]

ah man, this lady is awful and doesn't seem to grasp the problems that sarkeesian presented in her vids so very well and in depth (though maybe a tad academic-y, and her machine-gun like delivery could also make it a bit difficult), especially this one towards the end:

 

too bad disparaissant is not around anymore.

[Adieu]

Please don't revive this thread. Let it die the way it deserves to die. If you want to support Anita subscribe to her channel and leave her a comment. Oh wait...

[eugene]

shut the fuck up adieu.

 

anyway, i am kinda late getting into this thing but it is seriously surprising how there's not a single piece/post that understand her points at all and criticizes them on proper ground, i've gone over the whole thread and at most people criticize some kind of strawmen and own idiotic interpretation of her arguments, including favorites like the needle drop and that social con that the neckbeards consider a real feminist, fucking youtubes with ~500000 views go over some miniscule and unimportant point in a nauseating fashion that they think she's getting wrong and conclude that her whole argument is invalid..jesus fucking lols. i mean she's probably fighting a losing fight, it's hard to imagine a more idiotic bunch than libertarian, social conservative gamers with affinity to conspiracies.

[KovalainenFanBoy]

So are you gonna post a real critique or what

[eugene]

why would i ? she's pretty much spot on.

[KovalainenFanBoy]

oh alright

[Adieu]

Eugene you're trying to hard. Go flame bait in a political thread, or are there not enough active ones for your liking right now?

[data]

funny how i practically live on the internet, and am also a pretty avid gamer, yet i know absolutely nothing about this whole thing other than that some developer chick had sex with someone who writes about games ..or something.

 

is there anywhere i could get like a quick summary of why people are so upset? i really don't care enough to go through 11 pages of posts.

[mcbpete]

is there anywhere i could get like a quick summary of why people are so upset? i really don't care enough to go through 11 pages of posts.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/20/gamergate-internet-toughest-game-woman-enemies

 

 

 

It began with a blogpost written by the disgruntled ex-boyfriend of a female games developer, and somehow ballooned into a bitter online culture war bristling with gruesome personal threats. Both sides of the argument have flaws and strengths, nothing that couldn’t normally be hammered out in a few hours of civil debate. But there’s something in the water: gamergate has dragged on for weeks, growing increasingly toxic. And now, in 2014, women have been forced into hiding – for voicing an opinion about videogames. That’s a sentence that should only ever appear in the opening chapter of an implausible dystopian sci-fi novel, moments before you toss it in the bin.

 

....

 

I can picture it now. Black screen, white text. DOS style.

 

“You are a woman,” it reads. “You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door. There is a small mailbox here.”

 

There’s a prompt, blinking. You take your first step into this brave new world by typing OPEN MAILBOX, and hitting return.

 

DIE U FUCKN WHORE, replies the game.

 

Not one to be dissuaded, you try again. OPEN MAILBOX.

 

I SAID DIE U FUCKN WHORE says the game, accompanied by an animated gif of your head on a porn star’s body.

 

You decide to see what you’re carrying, by typing INVENTORY.

 

YOU HAVE: A LAMP, A ROPE, A FAT ASS AND SAGGY TITS, chuckles the game.

 

You try something else. You type GO NORTH.

 

The game thinks for a while, then distributes your home address and phone number and threatens to murder you and your entire family.

 

OK. That’s enough. QUIT GAME, you type, fingers shaking: QUIT GAME.

 

But it won’t quit. And you can’t be sure it ever will.

Or in summary - boys don't want to share their toys with those smelly girls

[azatoth]

 

[mcbpete]

I done'd one of those -

 

[KovalainenFanBoy]

I thought we were past the "if you don't agree with the Anita+Zoe you're a woman hater" nonsense. Oh well

[Adieu]

These are ridiculous people who are not worth discussing. It's like if we were to make an 11 page thread about the rantings of the homeless guy you ran into last weekend. It's not worthy of anyone's time, and it only serves to polarize people. But it is actually anti-feminist to take a position of criticizing the patriarchy and then use that criticism to request the patriarchy fix the problem. It would be feminist to take action yourself to alter the culture, and to appeal to the supposedly misrepresented minority by producing games for them, or at the very least games that line up with your personal values on the matter. Feminism is not complaining to the patriarchy about the patriarchy and requesting the patriarchy help you change the problem. That is only further emphasizing the dependence of females on men. At the very least if your criticisms are valid then there is a good business opportunity awaiting you if you produce a product for this underrepresented group.

[Friendly Foil]

Watching these Anita videos must be what being in a coma feels like.

[doublename]

I done'd one of those -

 

Topkek

[Alcofribas]

These are ridiculous people who are not worth discussing. It's like if we were to make an 11 page thread about the rantings of the homeless guy you ran into last weekend. It's not worthy of anyone's time, and it only serves to polarize people. But it is actually anti-feminist to take a position of criticizing the patriarchy and then use that criticism to request the patriarchy fix the problem. It would be feminist to take action yourself to alter the culture, and to appeal to the supposedly misrepresented minority by producing games for them, or at the very least games that line up with your personal values on the matter. Feminism is not complaining to the patriarchy about the patriarchy and requesting the patriarchy help you change the problem. That is only further emphasizing the dependence of females on men. At the very least if your criticisms are valid then there is a good business opportunity awaiting you if you produce a product for this underrepresented group.

this line of reasoning seems pretty bogus. in no meaningful sense can it be said that a critique of sexist themes and imagery in video games is "anti-feminist" if it is not also supplement by the creation of a new game lacking in said sexism. it is not the responsibility of a critic to also be a game developer. similarly for a critique of racist themes in films to be valid a critic is not required to also create a non-racist film.

 

i think your line of reasoning here is kind of why this issue is so controversial. it's odd that you won't acknowledge that there is this sexism in the gaming world but you have no problem claiming that critics of it are "anti-feminist." that seems pretty hypocritical imo.

[poblequadrat]

 

These are ridiculous people who are not worth discussing. It's like if we were to make an 11 page thread about the rantings of the homeless guy you ran into last weekend. It's not worthy of anyone's time, and it only serves to polarize people. But it is actually anti-feminist to take a position of criticizing the patriarchy and then use that criticism to request the patriarchy fix the problem. It would be feminist to take action yourself to alter the culture, and to appeal to the supposedly misrepresented minority by producing games for them, or at the very least games that line up with your personal values on the matter. Feminism is not complaining to the patriarchy about the patriarchy and requesting the patriarchy help you change the problem. That is only further emphasizing the dependence of females on men. At the very least if your criticisms are valid then there is a good business opportunity awaiting you if you produce a product for this underrepresented group.

this line of reasoning seems pretty bogus. in no meaningful sense can it be said that a critique of sexist themes and imagery in video games is "anti-feminist" if it is not also supplement by the creation of a new game lacking in said sexism. it is not the responsibility of a critic to also be a game developer. similarly for a critique of racist themes in films to be valid a critic is not required to also create a non-racist film.

 

i think your line of reasoning here is kind of why this issue is so controversial. it's odd that you won't acknowledge that there is this sexism in the gaming world but you have no problem claiming that critics of it are "anti-feminist." that seems pretty hypocritical imo.

 

 

it is true that it's not the responsibility of a critic to be a developer, but it is their responsibility to show the way. which in this case they don't. how to make games less sexist? i dunno, we're in the dark just as we were before, and we have gained no insight whatsoever, certainly not on the mechanics of sexism in games (which can't be reduced to the extremely flimsy pseudo-proppian concept of the trope, a concept which is useless unless you address its significance within a larger structure, which is precisely the difference between the abstract notion of the "trope" and the concrete tools of the various formalisms and structuralisms which it resembles.) what kind of criticism is that?

 

the truth is the only thing this brand of feminism can do is lampshading the fact that there's sexism in videogames. this is worthy in itself, especially given how thin the skin of gamers has proven to be, but it is what it is. you've got to start somewhere i guess.

 

the role of critique (if we are to use this word and its unfortunate association with neokantism and contemporary ethics, aka extremely reactionary conservatism posing as the purest heirs of the French Revolution) is not to abstractly negate or point out what is "bad", but to mediate an abstract idea and give pointers on how it will become concrete through an analytic exposition of the logic of a situation and what can be negated in it.

 

i think it's fair to say that this sort of criticism only produces lists of don'ts devoid of context which, in the absence of any actual prospect of how gender equality is going to arrive to gaming, can only be aimed at the patriarchy and in any case don't really tell much about what should be done in their place.

 

two other points are how little sarkeesian in particular deals with gameplay and game mechanics, and how often she just complains about motifs which aren't specific to gaming at all (such as the damsel in distress).

 

however some of the pieces kotaku has run on labour and gender in the game industry are almost good, because at least they aim at the right place, and it's easier to infer what should be from them.

 

 

anyway i'm off to write Capital, the sarkeesian version. it's 600 pages of the sentence "there are classes under capitalism" repeated over and over, i'm sure this is going to be a major breakthrough for socialism.

[poblequadrat]

i mean, subjectivity is completely missing from this. you can't just talk about the objective existence of sexism in games and then expect something to happen.

 

actually to be honest, the question "to whom is sarkeesian adressing her videos?" is a very difficult one to answer. the truth is that feminist gamers and feminist game makers barely exist as a collective, and there barely is a feminist agenda in gaming. that's the pressing matter now. anything else is reheated microwave food.

[Alcofribas]

 

 

These are ridiculous people who are not worth discussing. It's like if we were to make an 11 page thread about the rantings of the homeless guy you ran into last weekend. It's not worthy of anyone's time, and it only serves to polarize people. But it is actually anti-feminist to take a position of criticizing the patriarchy and then use that criticism to request the patriarchy fix the problem. It would be feminist to take action yourself to alter the culture, and to appeal to the supposedly misrepresented minority by producing games for them, or at the very least games that line up with your personal values on the matter. Feminism is not complaining to the patriarchy about the patriarchy and requesting the patriarchy help you change the problem. That is only further emphasizing the dependence of females on men. At the very least if your criticisms are valid then there is a good business opportunity awaiting you if you produce a product for this underrepresented group.

 

this line of reasoning seems pretty bogus. in no meaningful sense can it be said that a critique of sexist themes and imagery in video games is "anti-feminist" if it is not also supplement by the creation of a new game lacking in said sexism. it is not the responsibility of a critic to also be a game developer. similarly for a critique of racist themes in films to be valid a critic is not required to also create a non-racist film.

i think your line of reasoning here is kind of why this issue is so controversial. it's odd that you won't acknowledge that there is this sexism in the gaming world but you have no problem claiming that critics of it are "anti-feminist." that seems pretty hypocritical imo.

it is true that it's not the responsibility of a critic to be a developer, but it is their responsibility to show the way. which in this case they don't. how to make games less sexist? i dunno, we're in the dark just as we were before, and we have gained no insight whatsoever, certainly not on the mechanics of sexism in games (which can't be reduced to the extremely flimsy pseudo-proppian concept of the trope, a concept which is useless unless you address its significance within a larger structure, which is precisely the difference between the abstract notion of the "trope" and the concrete tools of the various formalisms and structuralisms which it resembles.) what kind of criticism is that?

 

the truth is the only thing this brand of feminism can do is lampshading the fact that there's sexism in videogames. this is worthy in itself, especially given how thin the skin of gamers has proven to be, but it is what it is. you've got to start somewhere i guess.

 

the role of critique (if we are to use this word and its unfortunate association with neokantism and contemporary ethics, aka extremely reactionary conservatism posing as the purest heirs of the French Revolution) is not to abstractly negate or point out what is "bad", but to mediate an abstract idea and give pointers on how it will become concrete through an analytic exposition of the logic of a situation and what can be negated in it.

 

i think it's fair to say that this sort of criticism only produces lists of don'ts devoid of context which, in the absence of any actual prospect of how gender equality is going to arrive to gaming, can only be aimed at the patriarchy and in any case don't really tell much about what should be done in their place.

 

two other points are how little sarkeesian in particular deals with gameplay and game mechanics, and how often she just complains about motifs which aren't specific to gaming at all (such as the damsel in distress).

 

however some of the pieces kotaku has run on labour and gender in the game industry are almost good, because at least they aim at the right place, and it's easier to infer what should be from them.

 

 

anyway i'm off to write Capital, the sarkeesian version. it's 600 pages of the sentence "there are classes under capitalism" repeated over and over, i'm sure this is going to be a major breakthrough for socialism.

I'm not convinced that your particular notion of "critique" is necessary here. some one made some videos surveying some instances of sexism in the gaming world and I don't think there is any need for her to pave the way for a completely new gaming zeitgeist. I think it's perfectly valid to open up a discussion of the subject by exposing this sexism. she's not a philosopher or a theorist. and anyway my point was simply to address the notion that she is "anti-feminist" for urging a non-sexist paradigm that would include games made by men.

 

furthermore, the fact that a significant portion of the response has been so absurdly hypocritical and hostile suggests to that her simple observational criticisms were practically more than they could reasonably handle. seems to me she let the cat out of the bag and thus forced the community to acknowledge (or foolishly deny) a neglected issue. I don't think it's reasonable to place the onus of envisioning a new paradigm completely on her. like, why isn't the gaming community already doing that? and why are people bending over backwards to deny her points and yet simultaneously ready to hurl epithets at her at the drop of a hat? ("anti feminist," "misandrist," "slut," etc)