The Quinnspiracy Theory, Tropes vs. Women in Video Games & #gamergate

[Guest A/D]

OK so the threats are just a normal part of gamer culture, and I shouldn't take them so seriously, but I should also think that gamers are being slanderously misrepresented and feel bad for them?

 

I'm out guys, it was fun though.

[doublename]

When did video games get so serious? How is playing games (and I spend far too much time doing just that) a deeply embedded by of a person's identity? This is absurd.

[usagi]

the whole thing is absurd. doesn't feel like a real issue at all.

[poblequadrat]

When did video games get so serious? How is playing games (and I spend far too much time doing just that) a deeply embedded by of a person's identity? This is absurd.

 

Oh, games can become a part of you without turning you into a psychopath. I remember for example the moment I discovered Scrap Brain Zone on the 8-bit version of Sonic 1 - that probably shaped my tastes in a big way. I have always been interested in artificiality since an early age, and as a little kid I was pretty adamant that pop music was worthless compared to some romantic ideal of completely alien electronic music, but probably without videogames I wouldn't be listening to actual electronic music nowadays.

 

But all this is pretty crazy. It's like playground violence, only more frivolous (on both sides). 4chan zealots and sworn defenders of half-assed right-of-center quasi-feminism are ready to die for their non-ideals.

[Adieu]

Well, great. let's all meet at the middle ground that this is absurd.

[Guest FuncRandm]

Reading through this at the moment. Usagi, if there is anything wrong with AEE's statements, take them apart directly. "Quoting from BLAH is bad" isn't falsification of data, finding and falsifying a statement would be… at the moment it reads like you're trolling...

It might seem absurd, but someone is attempting to make a load of money out of this at other people's expense and flinging a load of dirt around. I think the various associations may have nuked various people's careers in the long term, games and games journalism is a tiny industry. Will have to wait and see.

[mcbpete]

When did video games get so serious? How is playing games (and I spend far too much time doing just that) a deeply embedded by of a person's identity? This is absurd.

Well this is part of the issue - games are indeed meant to be a pleasant diversion or at their deepest level a great form of escapism. The fact that Anita points out that there's still quite a disparity between the male and female role/gender identiy, and then the comeback from these people is akin to - "HOW DARE YOU ... I'M GONNA HUNT YOU DOWN AND KILL YOU AND YOUR FAMILY", to me that's the absurdity !

[poblequadrat]

 

When did video games get so serious? How is playing games (and I spend far too much time doing just that) a deeply embedded by of a person's identity? This is absurd.

Well this is part of the issue - games are indeed meant to be a pleasant diversion or at their deepest level a great form of escapism. The fact that Anita points out that there's still quite a disparity between the male and female role/gender identiy, and then the comeback from these people is akin to - "HOW DARE YOU ... I'M GONNA HUNT YOU DOWN AND KILL YOU AND YOUR FAMILY", to me that's the absurdity !

 

 

but does she point that out? i don't think she does - on the other hand, everyone already knows that, both feminists and chauvinists (as their stance is that it should be like that! so they already know)

[chenGOD]

 

 

 

I'm trying really hard to understand why people are up in arms about this. It's about these Anita Serkessaashaain and Zoe-something people, correct? Because, unless I missed something, all those two ever did was make boring videos about a subject no sane person could possibly care much about and some artsy-fartsy indie game no sane person could possibly enjoy. Of all the things in the entire would to care about, these two chose gender roles in video games? And that's what has made all these neckbeard-y basement dwellers so mad?

 

Sorry for being so ignorant about this whole exciting situation, but I honestly never paid much attention to it. I do love vidja game culture and the colorful people that are part of it a lot, so if someone could post (or link) a brief summary that'd be cool. 2lazy2search

These fucktards influence political policies all over the world

 

Maybe not Anita Sarkeesian but other feminists.

 

Look at all this "preponderance of the evidence" shit in ridiculously series areas like divorce court and rape accusations on college campuses

 

 

Trust me, anyone who matters in global politics gives zero fucks about online flamefests, even when they escalate to this level of stupidity. No one cares that some shitty subreddit was closed, people who make policy barely even know reddit exists.

Corporations only care that reddit exists when people are violating copyright on there.

 

 

Whoever said this was like high school drama is pretty much spot on, this is just bullshit. This thread. It makes the baby jesus cry.

 

So you deny the existence of feminist politicians. Lols

 

That's not what I said at all. Nice strawman.

[Hoodie]

there's a lot of discussion in this thread about anita's comment if you're interested in learning more.

and here's a very well-written tumblr post on zoe quinn from someone who's been following this whole thing closer than i have.

video evidence that anita does not actually play games and lies about it:

 

[youtubehd]gcPIu3sDkEw[/youtubehd]

 

she mentions that she doesn't play video games because she doesn't want to kill people and rip their heads off. but when presented with a non-violent game with a female protagonist, she says the controls were hard and off-putting to women (which is a MAJORLY fucking offensive implication to me).

 

she also stole someone's art for use on her banner, here's the artist's blogpost about that.

 

some people think she may have faked the harassing twitter comments she's been talking about too. the screenshots she posted are a little weird looking (all the comments were posted within a few seconds of each other, all of them were perfect twitter message length, no account logged in, no search, weird diction), but i think that's more of something for the police to decide than the internet.

 

this subreddit is covering more recent events in what is now called #GamersGate for anyone interested.

[Friendly Foil]

lol using the 360 controller's d-pad to play games. No wonder she doesn't enjoy things.

[eugene]

 

 

When did video games get so serious? How is playing games (and I spend far too much time doing just that) a deeply embedded by of a person's identity? This is absurd.

Well this is part of the issue - games are indeed meant to be a pleasant diversion or at their deepest level a great form of escapism. The fact that Anita points out that there's still quite a disparity between the male and female role/gender identiy, and then the comeback from these people is akin to - "HOW DARE YOU ... I'M GONNA HUNT YOU DOWN AND KILL YOU AND YOUR FAMILY", to me that's the absurdity !

 

 

but does she point that out? i don't think she does - on the other hand, everyone already knows that, both feminists and chauvinists (as their stance is that it should be like that! so they already know)

 

 

it can still useful to point out that what is taken for granted and copied over and over again by a huge industry is wrong and harmful (classic performativity argument here). besides, the chauvinists don't necessarily know that they're chauvinists and why it's bad.

 

[zkom]

I remember the time when 'gamer' was a derogatory term. In pirate, hacker, phreak, etc BBSs there could be a statement in the login screen like "No lamers, no gamers!". Gamers were people that used their computers only for entertainment, not for anything creative or productive.

[GORDO]

I've been following the drama, it's fun as hell. I'm with 'the gamers' at the moment. That Zoe Quinn gal is a horrible person.

 

They're right that this isn't about sexism/whatever. That's only how the journos are trying to spin it.

 

The main complain about Anita is that her videos are intellectually dishonest, that she makes claims not based on any kind of fact (that video games influence behavior for instance), that many of her examples are taken out of context and that she cherry picks what suits her arguments and ignores everything else. The second complaint is that any sort of criticism gets auto-branded as mysoginy. And it works - see the very comments in this thread,where critics of sarkeesian are immediately labeled.

 

So while Anita is not a huge part of this drama (merely tangential) it exemplifies why this gamer folks are so upset at some websites. Its because for a few years they've been inserting social commentary with their reviews and editorials and they see that people aren't getting attention when they deserve it but only when they toe the line on a particular agenda. And if you dare disagree with even the minutest of their points then you are a bigot. I'd be pretty pissed too.

 

And with this has come a push to make games politically correct, where artistic freedom is stifled for the benefit of not offending anyone. This kind of thing is not new, but the argument always was that games were violent, now the argument is that games are sexist/homophoc/transphobic/whateverphobic or discriminatory.

 

So at the end of the day what's really really happening is that there's a core of people, a gang if you will, that's pushing for control in anything video game related (in the indie scene) they will blacklist studios that don't agree to their demands of inclusivity, they will be king makers of whoever they choose to represent as good examples, even if there's no merit to it. This sounds tinfoily but they actually have the power to do this.

 

But what pushed the 'gamers' over the edge was that when they started to demand transparency a whole bunch of articles appeared ON THE SAME DAY saying the same thing: gamers are dead, they're horrible people, we don't need them. Mind that it was sites DEDICATED TO GAMING that said these things. I'd be pretty pissed too. So not only was it made obvious that the press doesn't give a shit about their readers but that they operate in a clique, coordinating sending the same message all at the same time.

 

Its really interesting all this. There's this component of 'third wave feminism' inserted into it, another component of gaming journalists/bloggers that believe in postmodernism as a valid framework to work in, there's always been this inane component of feminism in postmodernism (physics are sexist: There isn't progress on fluid mechanics because a vagina is associated with fluidness) and it's pouring out outside of their niche study groups into the real world, and they act like bullies.

 

It actually makes me scared for the future.

[kaini]

lol this thread has inevitably turned into a clusterfuck

 

i explained to my girlfriend, who would consider herself a feminist, that her slight dancing to the elevator music in an indian restaurant would be considered cultural appropriation by some tumblrinas. predictably her response was 'wat'

 

i explained that some third-wave feminists regard all penetration as rape, predictably her response was 'wat'

 

my girlfriend earns more than me, and she is not someone you would regard as a shrinking violet

 

i explained lots of the recent quinn stuff, and her reaction was 'lol'. most people you stop in the street don't know who gaben is let alone zoe quinn. these people are shouting in an echo chamber. real feminists don't give a fuck about these looney tunes, it's just being amplified because we spend too much time on the internet.

 

stop giving these idiots oxygen by talking about them.

[eugene]

Its really interesting all this. There's this component of 'third wave feminism' inserted into it, another component of gaming journalists/bloggers that believe in postmodernism as a valid framework to work in, there's always been this inane component of feminism in postmodernism (physics are sexist: There isn't progress on fluid mechanics because a vagina is associated with fluidness) and it's pouring out outside of their niche study groups into the real world, and they act like bullies.

 

It actually makes me scared for the future.

what framework can it work from in if not this? i dunno about your particular examples but sciences are obviously biased in all kinds of ways, chauvinism is one of the most obvious biases.

[rddm]

 

Its really interesting all this. There's this component of 'third wave feminism' inserted into it, another component of gaming journalists/bloggers that believe in postmodernism as a valid framework to work in, there's always been this inane component of feminism in postmodernism (physics are sexist: There isn't progress on fluid mechanics because a vagina is associated with fluidness) and it's pouring out outside of their niche study groups into the real world, and they act like bullies.

 

It actually makes me scared for the future.

what framework can it work from in if not this? i dunno about your particular examples but sciences are obviously biased in all kinds of ways, chauvinism is one of the most obvious biases.

 

[poblequadrat]

 

 

 

When did video games get so serious? How is playing games (and I spend far too much time doing just that) a deeply embedded by of a person's identity? This is absurd.

Well this is part of the issue - games are indeed meant to be a pleasant diversion or at their deepest level a great form of escapism. The fact that Anita points out that there's still quite a disparity between the male and female role/gender identiy, and then the comeback from these people is akin to - "HOW DARE YOU ... I'M GONNA HUNT YOU DOWN AND KILL YOU AND YOUR FAMILY", to me that's the absurdity !

 

 

but does she point that out? i don't think she does - on the other hand, everyone already knows that, both feminists and chauvinists (as their stance is that it should be like that! so they already know)

 

 

it can still useful to point out that what is taken for granted and copied over and over again by a huge industry is wrong and harmful (classic performativity argument here). besides, the chauvinists don't necessarily know that they're chauvinists and why it's bad.

 

 

 

i mean, it's ok to remind people of it, but the actual politics of feminism lies in affirmation. on the other hand, sarkeesian lacks rigour. but i've already said my opinion 2 or 3 times anyway!

lol this thread has inevitably turned into a clusterfuck

 

i explained to my girlfriend, who would consider herself a feminist, that her slight dancing to the elevator music in an indian restaurant would be considered cultural appropriation by some tumblrinas. predictably her response was 'wat'

 

i explained that some third-wave feminists regard all penetration as rape, predictably her response was 'wat'

 

my girlfriend earns more than me, and she is not someone you would regard as a shrinking violet

 

i explained lots of the recent quinn stuff, and her reaction was 'lol'. most people you stop in the street don't know who gaben is let alone zoe quinn. these people are shouting in an echo chamber. real feminists don't give a fuck about these looney tunes, it's just being amplified because we spend too much time on the internet.

 

stop giving these idiots oxygen by talking about them.

 

pablex twin says it right

[eugene]

 

 

 

 

When did video games get so serious? How is playing games (and I spend far too much time doing just that) a deeply embedded by of a person's identity? This is absurd.

Well this is part of the issue - games are indeed meant to be a pleasant diversion or at their deepest level a great form of escapism. The fact that Anita points out that there's still quite a disparity between the male and female role/gender identiy, and then the comeback from these people is akin to - "HOW DARE YOU ... I'M GONNA HUNT YOU DOWN AND KILL YOU AND YOUR FAMILY", to me that's the absurdity !

 

 

but does she point that out? i don't think she does - on the other hand, everyone already knows that, both feminists and chauvinists (as their stance is that it should be like that! so they already know)

 

 

it can still useful to point out that what is taken for granted and copied over and over again by a huge industry is wrong and harmful (classic performativity argument here). besides, the chauvinists don't necessarily know that they're chauvinists and why it's bad.

 

 

 

i mean, it's ok to remind people of it, but the actual politics of feminism lies in affirmation. on the other hand, sarkeesian lacks rigour. but i've already said my opinion 2 or 3 times anyway!

 

what's an "actual politics of feminism" exactly? they can try to achieve their goals in all kinds of different ways.

[poblequadrat]

yes. exactly. that's my point: sarkeesian has no goal, hence she isn't feminist and what she does isn't of any relevance.

[eugene]

what point? i usually do manage to get through your "i did b.a. in phil"-speak and get to the gist of things but not here it seems. she can achieve 0.74% potency of some kind of ideal feminst warrior type or she could be 6.7% or whatver, in both cases it's alright and useful to the feminist agenda in some manner.

[poblequadrat]

what point? i usually do manage to get through your "i did b.a. in phil"-speak and get to the gist of things but not here it seems. she can achieve 0.74% potency of some kind of ideal feminst warrior type or she could be 6.7% or whatver, in both cases it's alright and useful to the feminist agenda in some manner.

 

well, I do agree with you, though: the more feminists the better, so it's alright. i just think it's good to have some discussion between people on the same side, but maybe i don't have the chops to do it properly and it all comes across as mumbo jumbo. i'm going to tone my posts down.

[GORDO]

 

 

 

Its really interesting all this. There's this component of 'third wave feminism' inserted into it, another component of gaming journalists/bloggers that believe in postmodernism as a valid framework to work in, there's always been this inane component of feminism in postmodernism (physics are sexist: There isn't progress on fluid mechanics because a vagina is associated with fluidness) and it's pouring out outside of their niche study groups into the real world, and they act like bullies.

 

It actually makes me scared for the future.

what framework can it work from in if not this? i dunno about your particular examples but sciences are obviously biased in all kinds of ways, chauvinism is one of the most obvious biases.

Sciences are not biased, people are biased. And equating the difficulty of fluid mechanics with sexism instead of with fucking difficult equations to solve is nonsense.

 

I don't think a philosophy of thought that believes that words are inherently meaningless is good for a profession that deals with reporting facts and opinions.

 

You seem to have a good opinion of postmodernism, I don't while it may have it's merits it is impossible to tell apart the good and the intellectual fraud, there's this great book about it, intellectual impostures. Here's a review by Dawkins: http://www.physics.nyu.edu/sokal/dawkins.html

[eugene]

sciences are made and maintained by people. postmodernism is a logical and rational continuation of modernism imo, but yeah, getting into that sokal bullshit and science wars needs a seperate thread.

[poblequadrat]

 

 

Its really interesting all this. There's this component of 'third wave feminism' inserted into it, another component of gaming journalists/bloggers that believe in postmodernism as a valid framework to work in, there's always been this inane component of feminism in postmodernism (physics are sexist: There isn't progress on fluid mechanics because a vagina is associated with fluidness) and it's pouring out outside of their niche study groups into the real world, and they act like bullies.

 

It actually makes me scared for the future.

what framework can it work from in if not this? i dunno about your particular examples but sciences are obviously biased in all kinds of ways, chauvinism is one of the most obvious biases.

Sciences are not biased, people are biased. And equating the difficulty of fluid mechanics with sexism instead of with fucking difficult equations to solve is nonsense.

 

I don't think a philosophy of thought that believes that words are inherently meaningless is good for a profession that deals with reporting facts and opinions.

 

You seem to have a good opinion of postmodernism, I don't while it may have it's merits it is impossible to tell apart the good and the intellectual fraud, there's this great book about it, intellectual impostures. Here's a review by Dawkins: http://www.physics.nyu.edu/sokal/dawkins.html

 

 

strawman 2 strawman: keepin it real

 

first of all epistemology is a complicated field. the fact that some scientists are ignorant about it doesn't mean you can just do away with it so easily. then the sociology of science isn't simple either.

what do you mean by postmodernism anyway? i'm a staunch modernist, if that means anything nowadays, but i think you're just playing the anti-intellectual card (against some youtube vlogger which isn't an intellectual anyway)

 

no, but really, which postmodernism? lyotard? antonio negri? baudrillard? vattimo? to my knowledge none of them talk about science anyway. latour does talk about science, but he doesn't say anything about vaginas and fluid mechanics.

 

now, is sokal a modernist? what is he? what does he propose?