Now That Trump's President... (not any more!)

[Nebraska]

about the richard spencer "hail trump" video:

 

did you see the black guy defending trump condemning them while a jew drops the n bomb 

 

https://youtu.be/4-isDnneRuo

[LimpyLoo]

limpy, fair enough, too.

We might be at a breakdown of civil discourse when we enter these arenas anymore.

Yeah I mean we all know it doesn't work because we all do it and it almost never produces the intended result

 

"Jesus you fucking idiot lmao stop being such an asshole"

When's the last time that made someone actually self-reflect instead of merely resent the speaker?

We all know this shit doesn't work, but it's our default mode because usually we're looking for short-term solutions for "this guy is being an asshole" so hey I'll shame him into acting differently for the duration of our encounter

 

That doesn't change people, that merely teaches them that being themselves gets them punished, and so they shut up, go away and become resentful towards the people shaming them

Edited November 23, 2016 by LimpyLoo

[LimpyLoo]

So for example

How did Derek Black's Jewish peers treat his White Supremacy?

They continually invited him to Jewish holidays and told him he's welcome anytime

(Along with some of their other non-white peers)

And then finally he's like 'yeah okay'

And so suddenly he's having dinner with Jewish and non-white people

when he talked, they genuinely listened

And respectfully pointed out where they disagreed

 

And they just did that over and over, rinse and repeat

And homeboy realized Jews etc weren't the sub-humans he was taught they were

[auxien]

 

 

 

 

You cant "talk down" racism lmao

You actually can though lmao

Born and raised in the south, among racists of every type imaginable. Talking to them with reason has never changed their positions. Not once.

Originally from the South, too (not living there any more, thank God), and I can vouch for this.

 

I'm not advocating for "reason"

(In fact, that's almost the opposite of what I'm advocating)

 

Carl Rogers figured this out 50 years ago

(And all subsequent empirical findings have continued to point this way)

People's default interpersonal mode is "the evaluative tendency"

i.e. I listen to what you say and evaluate its validity, and treat you according to that evaluation

 

That doesn't actually work on 'in group/out group' disputes

If someone calls you a "libtard cuck" (un-ironically), then you are done listening to them...we all know this because we all encounter it everyday on the internet

 

This is the "reason" that you're saying doesn't work

And I agree, that's why I'm not advocating for that

 

I'm not talking just about dumb-as-rocks shithead white guys that say things like libtard cuck unironically. I'm talking about highly intelligent white racists, uninformed migrant-family Mexican racists, young liberal black racists, eldery blacks and whites, middle aged intelligent mixed race people, etc. The racism that permeates literally everything in my state and much of the south (yes Joshuatx there's racism everywhere in America, of course, but I can't speak much of other places because my personal interactions there have been few and far between) isn't just about in/out groups. Not even close. I've also tried (and seen plenty of others try) not reasoning but simply appealing to emotion and base desires and the racism generally still persists no matter the approach. It's as ingrained in the lives of many as deep as the unquestionable existence of God or the blind, and often ignorant, American pride that so many of these same people feel. 

 

edit: and yes, I think I understand what you're saying about listening to their thoughts and views and all, but I really don't see how that helps. I've done that, I've considered their points. Many many others have as well.

Edited November 23, 2016 by auxien

[joshuatxuk]

jtx, fair enough. I've just been fortunate in that I can surround myself with open-minded, rational friends. As a teenager growing up in the South, I had no choice but to work (full time, through high school and college) many long hours with some fucked-up stupid racist shit. Glad to be away from it, is all. But yes, racism permeates every corner of this Great Land, to be sure. 

 

I completely understand, and I've also avoided the deep south so I have to stress that I don't want to downplay it. It exists and it is nastier and more pervasive in the South. I have a friend who lived in Georgia for awhile and he said it's unreal how racist and backass that state is...and he's from a small town in Texas where he already had to deal with that stuff. 

[joshuatxuk]

FYI Paul Ryan's office is doing a Obamacare / ACA poll so if you want to voice your support for it you can call this number.

 

Paul Ryan is conducting a phone poll on the ACA (Obamacare), hoping to hear overwhelming popular opposition to it. If you would like to express your support for the Affordable Care Act, call (202) 225-3031.

Press 2 to weigh in on the issue. You'll hear a brief recording about HR-3762, Paul Ryan's proposal to gut the ACA, and President Obama's use of his veto power to stop it. Then, you will have a chance to indicate your opinion with the press of a button. Press 1 if you support Obamacare, 2 if you oppose it.

 

 

More info here.

[LimpyLoo]

 

 

 

 

 

You cant "talk down" racism lmao

You actually can though lmao

Born and raised in the south, among racists of every type imaginable. Talking to them with reason has never changed their positions. Not once.

Originally from the South, too (not living there any more, thank God), and I can vouch for this.

I'm not advocating for "reason"

(In fact, that's almost the opposite of what I'm advocating)

 

Carl Rogers figured this out 50 years ago

(And all subsequent empirical findings have continued to point this way)

People's default interpersonal mode is "the evaluative tendency"

i.e. I listen to what you say and evaluate its validity, and treat you according to that evaluation

 

That doesn't actually work on 'in group/out group' disputes

If someone calls you a "libtard cuck" (un-ironically), then you are done listening to them...we all know this because we all encounter it everyday on the internet

 

This is the "reason" that you're saying doesn't work

And I agree, that's why I'm not advocating for that

I'm not talking just about dumb-as-rocks shithead white guys that say things like libtard cuck unironically. I'm talking about highly intelligent white racists, uninformed migrant-family Mexican racists, young liberal black racists, eldery blacks and whites, middle aged intelligent mixed race people, etc. The racism that permeates literally everything in my state and much of the south (yes Joshuatx there's racism everywhere in America, of course, but I can't speak much of other places because my personal interactions there have been few and far between) isn't just about in/out groups. Not even close. I've also tried (and seen plenty of others try) not reasoning but simply appealing to emotion and base desires and the racism generally still persists no matter the approach. It's as ingrained in the lives of many as deep as the unquestionable existence of God or the blind, and often ignorant, American pride that so many of these same people feel.

 

edit: and yes, I think I understand what you're saying about listening to their thoughts and views and all, but I really don't see how that helps. I've done that, I've considered their points. Many many others have as well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogerian_argument

 

All the empirical evidence on communication points back to Rogers:

a) You can treat someone like a database of correct or incorrect

beliefs, and treat them accordingly

b) you can treat someone as a fellow being who is having a different experience than you, and perpetually try to 'snake-charm' their humanism to the fore of their decision-making

 

Only the latter actually aids in 'in-group/out-group' communication

[auxien]

Yes Limpy, it most often doesn't work is my point. No arguments, discussions, or evidence work with most of the issues regarding racism, in my experience. The belief that peoples of different skin colors, families, and ancestry are inherently different and lesser is far deeper than approaching the situation with a different argument style (ffs, like no one has ever thought of that!). I'm not saying that it's impossible don't even try, but simply going 'oh, well let's not persecute them for believing that people of African descent are predetermined to be rapists and violent, let's listen to why they think that!' isn't a solution or honestly anything resembling one imo.

[Alcofribas]

it's one of the great missed opportunities of history that hitler never got invited to seder dinner imo

[LimpyLoo]

Yes Limpy, it most often doesn't work is my point. No arguments, discussions, or evidence work with most of the issues regarding racism, in my experience. The belief that peoples of different skin colors, families, and ancestry are inherently different and lesser is far deeper than approaching the situation with a different argument style (ffs, like no one has ever thought of that!). I'm not saying that it's impossible don't even try, but simply going 'oh, well let's not persecute them for believing that people of African descent are predetermined to be rapists and violent, let's listen to why they think that!' isn't a solution or honestly anything resembling one imo.

1) Where is the evidence for your position?

 

2) I am telling you that the psychological literature and empirical work unambiguously tell us this is the solution

The reason I'm being so insistent is because I specifically study 20th century psychology/psychotherapy and this is the exact reason that Carl Rogers is taught in psych 101: this was his contribution to the psychological canon

 

Check out the literature and empirical work on this if you don't believe me: Modern conflict-resolution techniques are explicitly Rogerian

 

 

Or check out Daryl Davis for another case study

He's a black dude who befriended 20 KKK members

[LimpyLoo]

I think I know where we're misunderstanding each other, auxien

 

If you go to university (I didn't)

Many of your teachers will be using 'student-based learning'

That is: set up the conditions for students to learn things themselves

(Instead of being told answers)

Carl Rogers came up with that approach

 

Now, virtually always, we see a political conflict as "how do I convince the other person of my position?"

Yeah that doesn't really work

So the goal here is not "how can I convince this racist he's wrong and racist?"

It's "how can I encourage this person's humanity and empathy?"

And surprise, shame doesn't work*

 

 

 

*studies I've seen suggest that shame only works

if a person is already pre-disposed to self-reflection and -evaluation

However, most people actually aren't (depressingly)

Edited November 23, 2016 by LimpyLoo

[LimpyLoo]

it's one of the great missed opportunities of history that hitler never got invited to seder dinner imo

Hitler was brutally beaten daily by his father

and sexually shamed by his mother

He was resentful of humanity and developed shame-driven OCD

(He showered 4-5 times daily)

 

But I'm sure what he really needed was more shame

Not compassion and humanity

[KovalainenFanBoy]

we need to go back in time and give Hitler a hug

[doublename]

Or beat him a little harder

 

edit - or make his parents watch The White Ribbon

Edited November 23, 2016 by doublename

[LimpyLoo]

we need to go back in time and give Hitler a hug

ITT = 'psychotherapy is pseudo-science'

 

 

If you wanna strawman psychotherapy as "a hug"...fine.

But let me ask you:

 

how do YOU think people psychologically heal?

I'm curious how you would treat a person filled with hate, fear and rage?

(Or do you think people actually enjoy being perpetually flooded with stress hormones and negative emotion?)

Edited November 23, 2016 by LimpyLoo

[luke viia]

Limpy, fwiw, I agree with you (and I watched/read some of the stuff you've linked to about this - thanks for the resources)

Edited November 23, 2016 by luke viia

[ignatius]

 

it's one of the great missed opportunities of history that hitler never got invited to seder dinner imo

Hitler was brutally beaten daily by his father

and sexually shamed by his mother

He was resentful of humanity and developed shame-driven OCD

(He showered 4-5 times daily)

 

But I'm sure what he really needed was more shame

Not compassion and humanity

 

 

 

jeez.. and then he went to art school and later had his psychosis enhanced with amphetamines. 

[KovalainenFanBoy]

 

we need to go back in time and give Hitler a hug

ITT = 'psychotherapy is pseudo-science'

 

 

If you wanna strawman psychotherapy as "a hug"...fine.

But let me ask you:

 

how do YOU think people psychologically heal?

I'm curious how you would treat a person filled with hate, fear and rage?

(Or do you think people actually enjoy being perpetually flooded with stress hormones and negative emotion?)

 

 

I was just making a silly joke, but I don't blame you for getting all defensive in this cage full of shit-flinging monkeys of a forum. I don't agree nor disagree with you cause I don't know shit about psychology

[ignatius]

thanks for this link. really interesting read. amazing story. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/the-white-flight-of-derek-black/2016/10/15/ed5f906a-8f3b-11e6-a6a3-d50061aa9fae_story.html

 

thanks

[Nebraska]

we need to go back in time and give Hitler a hug

 

 

Or beat him a little harder

 

edit - or make his parents watch The White Ribbon

 

 

https://youtu.be/C4Iz2nA1A5M

[LimpyLoo]

 

 

we need to go back in time and give Hitler a hug

ITT = 'psychotherapy is pseudo-science'

 

 

If you wanna strawman psychotherapy as "a hug"...fine.

But let me ask you:

 

how do YOU think people psychologically heal?

I'm curious how you would treat a person filled with hate, fear and rage?

(Or do you think people actually enjoy being perpetually flooded with stress hormones and negative emotion?)

I was just making a silly joke, but I don't blame you for getting all defensive in this cage full of shit-flinging monkeys of a forum. I don't agree nor disagree with you cause I don't know shit about psychology

 

 

we need to go back in time and give Hitler a hug

ITT = 'psychotherapy is pseudo-science'

 

 

If you wanna strawman psychotherapy as "a hug"...fine.

But let me ask you:

 

how do YOU think people psychologically heal?

I'm curious how you would treat a person filled with hate, fear and rage?

(Or do you think people actually enjoy being perpetually flooded with stress hormones and negative emotion?)

I was just making a silly joke, but I don't blame you for getting all defensive in this cage full of shit-flinging monkeys of a forum. I don't agree nor disagree with you cause I don't know shit about psychology

"How much do you know about the Gear Wars?"

 

 

 

 

Right-wing fascism is basically an excess of orderliness (like OCD, Bulimia and Anorexia, controlling behavior)

So when people are anxious they 'clamp down' on their environment to minimize anomalies and potential threats

 

We know why that's inherently pathological, and our broader conceptions of mental health are largely based on how people respond to anomalies in their life, and we know what anxiety is and how people tend to acquire it

 

Anxiety (and neuroticism in general) develops when you experience an anomaly (i.e. potential threat), and your amygdala tags it as "this is a threat: you need to sort this out and find a solution" before it's stored in your hippocampus and integrated into your map of the world

 

If you don't 'un-tag' those threats with analysis (and thus a plan for dealing with it), the anxiety persists, and your amygdala tells your hypothalamus to release a bunch of cortisol so you're ready to deal with whatever threat this might pose to you (you don't actually know at the moment)

 

So say you're sitting on your bed reading, and all of a sudden there's a loud, angry pounding on your door...okay well, what's your plan? Well, you have no idea, because you don't know what the threat is, and so the cortisol starts to flow and your body is basically prepared to fight to the death if it needs to...

 

Chronic neuroticism and anxiety disorders are merely the developed *habit* of not looking through the peephole to assess the threat, 'map' it, and devise a plan for dealing with it

 

But it's not just your external environment

this also happens with memories themselves

People avoid delving into past trauma to parse it and understand it and 'un-tag' it because it's ugly painful stuff

But of course if you don't know that exposure therapy is the cure, then you don't do it

 

Anyways, Neo-Nazis (et all) are all about removing anomalies from their environment to reduce pre-existing anxiety (very often unrelated to the exact aim of their orderliness)

it's basically just 'contamination ocd' applied to greater society

Hitler very often talked in terms of contamination and purity and infestation, and it's not at all a coincidence.

 

 

 

(P.S.to anyone still reading:

If you wanna know roughly how anxious or neurotic you are,

then just observe how annoyed the unfinished 'knock at the door' story made you feel)

 

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2016 by LimpyLoo

[LimpyLoo]

MOTHERFUCKING RECOUNT IS ON ITS WAY

[doublename]

chill

[LimpyLoo]

From what I've heard so far:

-few days ago a group of computer engineers said something was fishy

-they met with HRC

-today Jill Stein started collecting funds to recount 3 battleground states

 

https://jillstein.nationbuilder.com/recount

 

Was $80K like an hour ago

Up to $500K now

[ignatius]

also this.. 

 

http://www.nationalpopularvote.com

 

The National Popular Vote bill would guarantee the Presidency to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states and the District of Columbia.    It has been enacted into law in 11 states with 165 electoral votes (CA, DC, HI, IL, MA, MD, NJ, NY, RI, VT, WA).  It will take effect when enacted by states with 105 more electoral votes.   Most recently, the bill was passed by a bipartisan 40–16 vote in the Republican-controlled Arizona House, 28–18 in Republican-controlled Oklahoma Senate, 57–4 in Republican-controlled New York Senate, and 37–21 in Democratic-controlled Oregon House.  It has passed on house in 12 states with 96 electoral votes (AR, AZ, CO, CT, DE, ME, MI, NC, NM, NV, OK, OR).