plisb Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Anyone around here who is a true believer? I'm feeling sick. Nothing new to me in terms of facts etc, apart from an experience today with a few students of mine. For the first time I saw two persons logic "western" reasoning (which they are a part of 99% of our lessons) go out the window and their minds were completely blocked from discussing a certain simple matter any further. I can't help cringing mentally when I think of them not understanding or reflecting on why they react the way they do. Sure, there's the possibility that they at home, at peace at night, can ponder these things, and again who am I to judge right or wrong, but surely there's someone here who know what I'm getting at. I absolutely respect different opinions in terms of whatever, as long as no direct and intended (depending of how the persons understands his actions as passive or active) discrimination is apparent. How the fuck do I go about these things as a teacher? Not too many colleagues around are too fond of these kind of "sensetive topics". As I see it, it's one of the most fundamental questions in order to deal with future comings... How do religious followers view social or cultural blockades like these? Like, there's nothing to discuss or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chassis Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Debates on religion generally turn into people saying why religion is wrong, rather than making point why there isn't a god. Just because Noah's Ark is bullshit, doesn't make you right. Having said that, Id love to see an atheist make a cogent argument on why there is no god, without reference to any religion whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryptowen Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I suspect that reality may be vastly more complex & bizarre than the human mind can comprehend, to the point that we can't even begin to abstract it into recognizable concepts, & it may as well be some magical all-powerful god figure from our perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinski Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 how do you prove that something nonexistant does not exist? i mean come on. you either buy the concept or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ego Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Are Christians still that prevalent in Sweden? I feel that, besides old people, there are barely any left over here. I don't really mind them as long as they stay out of the schools and government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chassis Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 how do you prove that something nonexistant does not exist? i mean come on. you either buy the concept or not. I cant simply "buy" concepts. This is why i dont consider myself atheist nor religious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plisb Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 These are islamic teenagers who came to Sweden about 3-4 months ago, and are so well integrated as individuals - instead of as a group (which btw is the main issue with integration) - and they're getting on so well with everything, which is why I now are struck by this first moment of them actually expressing strict taboo - it's something that isn't even worth discussing, why they react in a certain way. It's seriously hindering our communication. Agh.. Can't express the fury I feel, coming from a seemingly incapability of mine, on how to handle the situation (apart from sweeping it under the carpet). Of course it's a huge concept of mind to work with, and maybe there's a need of starting at another end of the world view...as in empathy maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YO303 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 It helps you deal with the mindfuck the is mortality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR4 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 chassis nailed it with the second post....people ingrained in a deep issue of faith like religion tend to take a logical deconstruction of their beliefs as a direct affront towards them. i found in my classes that it usually helps to address the topic but act as if its not that big of a deal. I throw in origin myths of tons of different civilizations together and explain not whether they were good or bad, but why these aspects of religion appeal to a certain population. there are indirect ways to attack it. but then again, some people just get offended no matter what you say. im not gonna dney it, ive gone all over the religious spectrum and im sorta content being an ignostic atheist. or particularly anti-theist when it comes to most deities. But religious institutions provided us with some pretty badass thinkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
data Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Are Christians still that prevalent in Sweden? i've only known one practicing christian in my entire life, we hung out for a while but it got weird when i was told off by his parents for cursing in their house. but yeah, one, in 32 years. as far as i know, being an atheist is pretty much the norm, but noone really refers to themselves as atheist, it's just how most people are. it's the christians who stands out and imo comes across as a bit strange/creepy. and then there's ofc the muslims (believers), but they're generally not as creepy as the few christians i've met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaen Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 You know all those programs on the history channel about ancient aliens? with this guy? i believe those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skotosa Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Shits simple, life is simple. Humans complicate things. That is all there is to it. We need fancy explanations and want more more and more. We are never satisfied until we have it all, jokes us on us though, all = infinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred McGriff Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I personally enjoy the the humility of worship. It's much needed for my sanity. I find it amusing that people are so easily convinced that human reason is the best equipment for understanding how things actually work. It's like cats. A lot of people who think they have the answers seem like cats to me. You can dress a cat in a funny coat and a little top hat, and it will still have that cat like look on its face like it is just so convinced there isn't a way to be more thoroughly sentient than a cat. Religion for me is a dose of humility and an imperfect communion that has the potential to be amazing. I dislike going to church because it's a bunch of people going through the motions. But if people actually meant what they were doing I think the sense of community you would get from sincerely praying for help, praying to be a better person, praying for your fellow man and woman, would be amazing. I like to pray. I don't know what I'm praying to, but I believe there's something superbly abstract and beyond human comprehension that is receiving the transmission. And when you are praying with someone else or a group of people, you feel really vulnerable together. I like that. It's hard to find though. I don't have a problem when people liken faith to fairy tales ghosts and fantasy. Because it is indeed an irrational thing. I just find the irrational side of life sexy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoA Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 These are islamic teenagers who came to Sweden about 3-4 months ago, and are so well integrated as individuals - instead of as a group (which btw is the main issue with integration) - and they're getting on so well with everything, which is why I now are struck by this first moment of them actually expressing strict taboo - it's something that isn't even worth discussing, why they react in a certain way. It's seriously hindering our communication. Agh.. Can't express the fury I feel, coming from a seemingly incapability of mine, on how to handle the situation (apart from sweeping it under the carpet). Of course it's a huge concept of mind to work with, and maybe there's a need of starting at another end of the world view...as in empathy maybe. Christians and Muslims are both hypocrites. Usually when someone closes their mind and has already made it up then there is no convincing to be done. It's quite sad. On almost any topic, if someone thinks they already know the answer and aren't willing to look at anything else then trying to argue with them is basically useless, even if you shower them with evidence. Neither Christians nor Muslims read the text that they supposedly follow. Sura 6:154-155 6:154. Moreover, We gave Moses the Book (Torah), COMPLETING (Our favour) to those who would do right, and explaining ALL things IN DETAIL,- and a GUIDE and a MERCY, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. 6:155. And this (Torah) is a Book which We have revealed as a BLESSING: so follow it and be righteous, that YE may receive mercy (Sura 32:23): So in The Koran it tells the reader to follow The Bible and to read it, yet they don't bother. This is the problem with organized religion, they seem to think that they can understand the text by listening to their blind guides (preachers etc.), who themselves do not understand the text, without actually reading the Books. Also, because of the Christian, Jewish, and Islamic hypocrisy people turn to Atheism and Nihilism, totally ignoring the Books altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vamos scorcho Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I suspect that reality may be vastly more complex & bizarre than the human mind can comprehend, to the point that we can't even begin to abstract it into recognizable concepts, & it may as well be some magical all-powerful god figure from our perspective. well said. that's my take on it as well. from my perspective people on both "sides," if we could reduce it for the sake of argument, are missing something. for me the people on the 'science' / 'non-religion' side generally are missing more, if only because i agree with them more overall so i need to make this point repeatedly in order to progress things further. i started from the science side and i know where those people are at, and i don't think it's the best possible place. i think we need to move forwards [athiests/moderns/non-religions] into having more respect for religious beliefs... well, more just the vague notion of God, the infinite, spirituality, etc... BOTTOM LINE: what cryptowen said... there is a lot more going on than meets the eye, ever, so science makes a mistake when it comes to believe it is in any way superior in an objective sense to the religious views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoodie Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 i just wanna say that not all atheists believe with certainty that god does not exist. see this diagram: i'd describe myself as an agnostic atheist (i don't actively believe in a god, but i am not claiming that the existence of such a being is impossible), because that's really the only intellectually honest position. of course, it also depends on how you define 'god.' i'm pretty sure there's no man in the clouds counting my sins. I personally enjoy the the humility of worship. It's much needed for my sanity. I find it amusing that people are so easily convinced that human reason is the best equipment for understanding how things actually work. It's like cats. A lot of people who think they have the answers seem like cats to me. You can dress a cat in a funny coat and a little top hat, and it will still have that cat like look on its face like it is just so convinced there isn't a way to be more thoroughly sentient than a cat. Religion for me is a dose of humility and an imperfect communion that has the potential to be amazing. I dislike going to church because it's a bunch of people going through the motions. But if people actually meant what they were doing I think the sense of community you would get from sincerely praying for help, praying to be a better person, praying for your fellow man and woman, would be amazing. I like to pray. I don't know what I'm praying to, but I believe there's something superbly abstract and beyond human comprehension that is receiving the transmission. And when you are praying with someone else or a group of people, you feel really vulnerable together. I like that. It's hard to find though. I don't have a problem when people liken faith to fairy tales ghosts and fantasy. Because it is indeed an irrational thing. I just find the irrational side of life sexy. i wish that people could find togetherness in ways that didn't promote willful ignorance of the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vamos scorcho Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 there should be a term for one who believes that there is no God, yet also believes that there is, with a slight lean towards there is. the definition of "God" being an "ultimate truth" moving beyond scientific documentation, the acknowledgement of that. without religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vamos scorcho Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 i wish that people could find togetherness in ways that didn't promote willful ignorance of the universe. the problem with scientists for me is that their ignorance isn't even really willful, they truly believe that they are somehow less ignorant. in the scheme of things however, they aren't. so they would need something else to complete their views of the world, and that thing is known as spirituality, or perhaps philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoodie Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 there should be a term for one who believes that there is no God, yet also believes that there is, with a slight lean towards there is. the definition of "God" being an "ultimate truth" moving beyond scientific documentation, the acknowledgement of that. without religion. that's probably, you know, a deist. i have no beef with deism. it's the only legitimate view of god, imo. everything else is ridiculous. claiming you know what an ineffable, infinite being wants is... retarded. christ. how could an infinite being even "want?" makes no sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoodie Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 i wish that people could find togetherness in ways that didn't promote willful ignorance of the universe. the problem with scientists for me is that their ignorance isn't even really willful, they truly believe that they are somehow less ignorant. in the scheme of things however, they aren't. so they would need something else to complete their views of the world, and that thing is known as spirituality, or perhaps philosophy. ... you do realize that philosophy is the core of science, right? like, "science" as we know it today used to be called natural philosophy. it sounds like you have a skewed view of what science really is. yeah, people misuse it a lot, whether for money or for personal gain. some people act "superior" because they are involved in it. however, don't let human arrogance taint the view of something that is essentially the search for knowledge. in its current state (talkin' about acadamia), it's not perfect... but it's the best we've got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baph Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Science is an active search/process for finding answers, not a codification of how things are. It takes discipline and doubt and constant inquiry and an acceptance of uncertainty and lack of resolution. I have no problem with people pursuing their own belief systems, but to say "Science Thinks It Knows Everything Therefore I SeekThe Humility of an Ancient Text That Claims to Hold All The Answers" seems to me to (a) really under/overestimate science (b) be a kind of silly head in the sand approach to resolving a supposed conflict of systems. No offense intended. Incidentally, I've only met about 10 people who were brave enough to come out as nontheists. This post alone could probably get me fired. I don't think the hostility 'atheists' direct towards 'believers' is anywhere near approaching the hostility 'believers' direct towards 'atheists' in mainstream US discourse. The different perception of this in this thread is interesting. Edit: ended up way behind the convo by slowly typing this on my JesusPhone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baph Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Also, sort of in response to chassis re: "god" http://en.wikipedia....iki/Ignosticism http://en.wikipedia...._noncognitivism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vamos scorcho Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 anyone with a brain knows that atheists are closer to the truth than a lot of the so called "religious nuts." I simply question A. that science actually makes the world better [see: hiroshima. can anyone tell me what Einstein's discovery has actually done in the world to make it better? because all I can see are a bunch of atom bombs, and some decent CGI productions on Discovery channel about black holes]. B. that science adequately understands the concept of spirituality. the whole idea that it's a "piece of paper" that people blindly follow is a generalization, which instead of making the religious change their minds, mostly just holds the scientists back from a true spiritual awakening. OK, so if I was to talk to a scientist, I would say: Ok, so you think the big bang is the truth of our universe. So? So what? Are you happy? where will this get us? where are we headed? do you have all the answers? ok, so they answer to that last question: "no, I do not have all the answers. but I will continue to search!" I would say, to what end? Do you think there is an ultimate answer you will reach? would you take it if you could? this reduces their task down to being something close to a "hobby" instead of some monolithic intellectual pursuit. Like I said, anyone with a BRAIN and critical thinking will START from the place of the scientist, the skeptic, and so on... the atheist... etc. But from there the correct place to go is, from my point of view, the spiritual place. The rejection of all scientific ideals. I can't articulate it very well right now. I watched that Strauss guy give his lecture on the universe and I just kept thinking: "this guy may well be in for a rude awakening. his data says nothing about ultimate reality. I find it hard to understand how he can not see the pettiness of these discoveries." then again, he would see my ranting as irrational, or, worse... misguided. he would think I was missing the point, flipped on the wrong switch: science can make no assumptions, it is a rigorous method for communication, guiding truths together, something like that. there can be no Tao, there can be no faded lines. and what exists, if spiritual, can be discovered through science, like anything else, explained. which can be said that we never reach the end point? is forward progress inevitable? is it necessary? is it the best way, absolutely? does progressing science lead to increased social awareness, kindness, love? mere questions, without answers, i do not purport to have. the scientist would laugh at these questions with his mathematical formulas, that's fair, because i laugh at his formulas, knowing when i drift into some strange dream that they amount to nothing, death comes whenever, complexity reaches outwards eternally, this moment is a dry heave on the sterile stretch marks of someone's thigh, then again it is also a bright and joyous loving moment, does science determine either of these things? I'm not sure. just thoughts, hopefully food for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candiru Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I don't think the debate of science vs. religion is necessary or interesting anymore. Nothing supernatural is real. What lies beyond our reality has the potential to be much more exciting and terrifying. Our neural pathways cannot process so much about the universe, our existence. It's like an ant trying to figure out how my laptop was manufactured. If the human race lasts long enough to really discover the ins and outs of space travel, I think there will be secluded colonies of humans in deep space with all kinds of weird cultish beliefs. Imagine people meditating in the Eridanus Supervoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmanyo Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I would imagine that I'm one of the few Christians on this forum, although I'm not completely decided on my beliefs and I certainly don't follow it closely enough. I have heard what I perceive to be logical and legitimate arguments from both Christians and Atheists. But are they really logical? How can I tell whether logic is logical using logic? Am I only a Christian because I was brought up that way and am too afraid to leave, or do I really believe what I do? Is rebellion, the desire to have no one above me control me or tell me what's right and wrong, the main factor behind me considering atheism? Such is the postmodern crisis; how can I know that my model of reality is accurate?; how can I tell what reality really is when my view of it is so distorted by the subjective? It's like I'm in a cathedral, looking at the world around me through the stained glass windows of patron saints. edit: I do have to applaud the WATMM forum for making it this far without a ridiculous heated debate. Usually human decency is thrown out the window within three posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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