The Rules: Official Discussion & Debate

[o00o]

Why no hide general banter from members under 200 posts? So we can have fun (in a resonable amount) and new members are not scared away. If googlebot is off here too the site will also not be indexed in a bad way

[OneToThirtySix]

I like messaien's idea.

Why no hide general banter from members under 200 posts? So we can have fun (in a resonable amount) and new members are not scared away. If googlebot is off here too the site will also not be indexed in a bad way

200 seems high, considering that there are some members *raises hand* that join to discuss one featured artist, and are limited to only a few relevant topics at a time. I concede that there is also Music Discussion for that, but GenBan provides a breadth of topical possibility for when subforums become stagnant, alleviating boredom and giving members more ground to cover (internet junkies often have short attention spans, anyway).

The point I'm making is that this further reduces accessibility, more so than permitting NSFW content.

[impakt]

/keeps a list of people that profess their interest in QOTSA, for future special attention. Also, isn't so surprised by who they are. ;-p heheh.

Haha :D

[Candiru]

so, QOTSA, yay or nay?

 

Clearly yay.

[LimpyLoo]

 

 

 

so, QOTSA, yay or nay?

 

[murve33]

Why no hide general banter from members under 200 posts? So we can have fun (in a resonable amount) and new members are not scared away. If googlebot is off here too the site will also not be indexed in a bad way

Post count would be a poor measure in my opinion. We have some great members on this forum who have been with us for years with fairly low post counts, and we have some pretty horrendous newer members with high post counts (and also some good ones).

 

As far as QOTSA goes, Songs for the Deaf is fantastic. Everything else is pretty dull. Them Crooked Vultures is the shit though (kind of).

[Candiru]

Nah, if you like Songs For The Deaf, then how could everything else by them be dull?

 

Lullabies has quite a great progression and atmosphere over the course of the album. Might be my most listened to by them actually. Josh Homme knows how to make fun rock that grooves and actually delivers. You don't have to justify making rock by having it be this heady intellectual pursuit that's "conceptually interesting" but sounds like a wet noodle rather than actually rocking... Monomania

[Joyrex]

How the thread got off topic about Queens of the Stone Age (I see they're pulling a Daft Punk/Boards of Canada)... whatever, it's WATMM.

I don't get why warning points are never removed. Its not like someone has been killed or so. Its a really negative way of seeing things. When you behave bad you receive warnings but when you do good / trying to improve the forum you receive nothing so why trying to improve things when nothing comes back?

We actually had an addon that removed them after a set period of time - unfortunately, the addon creator didn't update the addon, so it was removed due to incompatibility. I'll check and see if there is an update or a new version. And "good" is subjective - so by acting like you should, you should be rewarded? I don't subscribe to that line of thinking myself - I see rewards as doing something more than just doing what's expected.

 

Joyrex you like to call yourself papa but do you only educate your children by punishment? I think its the wrong way to go. People also need positive achievements besides their post count

Actually, I despise that moniker. It was Alzado that started that shit. Ah well, what can you do though? I've been called worse.

 

And I do "reward" people when they do good - look at Obel - he's the AE forum moderator, because despite being a pain in my ass from time to time, he knows his AE and is level-headed and fair.

 

Do people get warnings via pm before they are banned, or is it an instant thing? Genuine question.

 

Not that I ever think I will say anything remotely likely to get me a ban you understand

 

Waiting to be told to 'read the rules'

People can be banned at any time, but it takes a pretty serious offense to warrant that - additionally, just because somebody is only at 3 warnings or so, does not mean they have seven more chances to fuck up before they are ultimately banned.

 

 

Still don't get why some of you are crying about prohibition of NSFW material here. Just go to 4Chan or some porn site if you need a fix.

 

Then what have you been doing the last 10 pages of this thread? Because it's been explained a gorillion times. We don't want NSFW material for the sake of NSFW material, we want NSFW material in the context of watmm to be shared and produced within the watmm community

 

As I've said before, I'm relaxing things a bit to see how it goes - I still do not want threads where the whole point is to post something explicit. Like our rules on language, it should be used like seasoning - too much, and it leaves a bad taste in your mouth. And there's no distinction between WATMM NSFW and NSFW - if it's not something you'd wear on a shirt in public, then it probably isn't something you should post here.

 

 

Still don't get why some of you are crying about prohibition of NSFW material here. Just go to 4Chan or some porn site if you need a fix.

this argument gets repeated over and over and some people just never get it.

no one really needs a fix, people just want to post the stuff they like for their friends in a forum they belonged to for a while. no one posted actual porn here when it was allowed, just some absurd and ridiculous gifs and stuff for the amusement. you wouldn't want to get censored in any way when you're hanging out with your bros, same principle here.

 

Oh, then you really didn't see it either, because it was there - when I cleaned things up after the rule changes, there was stuff that I wasn't even aware of, and pretty nasty - not even what I'd consider porn worth looking at.

 

The tricky thing here will be trying to maintain that balance between "oh, yeah, this is hilarious, wtf" and veering off into NSFW territory again, or the majority of threads start to be about explicit topics. I do not want it to go that far.

 

Joyrex,

 

Thanks for the answers. To be honest though, I don't think your proposal is actually a solution to the current situation. But before I dive into that, I'd like to start with giving you every bit of praise and respect for building and managing this community for the 14+ years it has been running. The amount of years alone speaks volumes. About you and all the people who have been putting their effort into it. Even the biggest Joyrex-hater couldn't deny that.

 

The current situation is, imo, about the difference between your ideas what this place is - or should be - about (and where it should be going) and that of the community. And frankly speaking, this difference alone can bring this community down. I don't say this as a threat. People reading this thread (and following similar events in the past) will probably come to a similar conclusion. Perhaps you've already come to a similar conclusion yourself.

 

In my opinion, we should use this situation to collectively look towards the future and make some collective decision about what we want as a community. The underlying implication should be that the single-man "the place is not a democracy" management style should go. This is not some issue which could be solved with "to moderate my approach to things".

 

This issue is solved, imo, by thinking about what this community would look like if you're not in the lead anymore. As you've said, you'll be 40 this year. And it won't be long until you could be dad to a large part of the community. IMO, you should be able to think about this place past your own shadow. Because this place should be able to keep on existing well after you've gone (for whatever reason, at whatever point in time). If you're actually serious about this place, which I think you are, this should be one of the things on your mind. Perhaps you've already thought this out for yourself. Maybe Chaosmachine is the next Joyrex, or something. Who knows.

 

My only point is, this should be a discussion for the entire community. Yes, this place is a democracy, whether you like it or not. Regardless of that sentence in the rules, or the amount of personal investments you've made. Especially if you want this place to be around after you have left. IMO, only a more democratic model would help this place to keep on existing after you have left. And yes, this place should still be around after you leave. At least, I hope you're not the kind of manager who gives fuck-all about what happens to a company after he personally built it up over a period of 14+ years.

 

I'm not saying you should leave. Now, or in the coming year(s). That's obviously in no-ones interest. But I really urge you to think about this place and what it should look like after you have left. And maybe, just maybe, if you look deep down in your heart, you might be better off if you pass on the banhammer to one or more people and have a more background/consulting role for the people running this place for you. But that's my opinion though. And I'm seriously not into some kind of personal vendetta. I just think that, like a business, times change and management evolves. (And yes, I'm some kind of capitalistic business dork. That's actually my job.)

 

If this is not your cup of tea, I predict you'll have many more headaches because of this place in the future. And in the worst case, some kind of "Mubarak getting kicked of his throne of Egypt" kind of scenario. The last scenario would also be pretty disastrous for WATMM, btw.

 

So please, think this through. Perhaps only for yourself, or with a small group of people. But in the end, the entire community should be able to have some kind of saying in this.

 

If you want this place to be a more civilised place, you have to treat it as such. From a business point of view; there's a considerate amount of stakeholders - and stockholders even - who should have something to say about the long term perspectives of this community.

 

tldr: this thread should be about what the Jr AND the community wants with watmm in the future

 

Also, to make this as crystal clear as possible: this is not some kind of veiled attempt towards some kind of take over. I am NOT interested in running this place whatsoever. If you don't believe me, you should read that last sentence again, but with more emphasis on "NOT".

Your posts make me think you're trying to get me to "give up" and accept defeat. Nice try if that's the case.

 

First off, let's address the whole "not a democracy" thing - it's not, pure and simple. In the end, I will be held responsible for what gets posted here, and in the end, whether I like it or not, everyone's behaviour reflects upon me, since this is my site and I run things here. A company (to use an analogy), who has employees acting poorly, reflects upon the company, and if the problems are systemic and egregious enough, then the managers, directors, and in some cases the CEO is held responsible.

 

Since I have the most risk and the most to lose here, it only follows that things will be run in the manner I see best. Am I open to suggestion? Sure. A lot of the way WATMM exists today is directly due to suggestions and input from members. People continue to donate to keep the site running, so obviously people like it and agree with how things are run enough to put their money towards it.

 

Everyone here has a very limited stake in WATMM - If I decided to shut the site down tomorrow, none of you has any say in the matter. You would all simply find some other place to congregate, or perhaps not even bother, since at the end of the day, it's just a forum on the internet. None of this is essential, nor will anyone's lives be affected adversely if it's gone. Honestly, if anyone thinks otherwise, then perhaps one should re-evaluate their priorities. Are we all emotionally invested? Of course we are - if we weren't, we wouldn't bother (and I wouldn't bother keeping this place going for so long).

 

I've considered on a few occasions if it was time to pull the plug on things, sometimes due to the lull in the electronic music scene, other times due to the ebb and flow of this place (WATMM seems to be on a cycle where it gets bitchy and nasty for a bit, then mellows out), and other times because I've wanted to move on to other things.

 

Unfortunately, I'm too much of a control freak and it would bother me tremendously if I gave WATMM away to someone else - I made that mistake with joyrex.com, not seeing the long-term consequences of someone "owning" the domain name. Now, nothing less than 1700.00 (last I inquired) will get the domain name back as it's held by some business squatter who thinks it's worth anything because it's short and a .com. WATMM is my baby, and I have plans for it - and unfortunately a lot of my free time is spent focusing on what frankly is not important.

 

And the whole idea of me being "ousted" is preposterous - I can shut the server off in less than 5 minutes, delete the entire site in less than an hour. If things got so bad that I would have to consider a "nuclear solution", then I have failed as an Admin to have let things get that bad to begin with. For the time being WATMM started, and will most likely end, with me, when I decide it's time to move on.

 

I maintain this whole exercise is simply an over-reaction to a popular member being banned (and I will remind you, he was banned due to his remarks and attitude towards me personally - the thread was merely the catalyst, and perhaps an indication that despite previous assurances, he wasn't ready to adhere to the rules in place here), and while it has yielded some positive results, in the end there is a vocal minority who worries so much about whether than can behave a certain way or not, while the majority could care less or are focused on the big picture, which is why they're all here - music.

 

Honestly, the whole Fred thing is between him and I, and really not something the community should be commenting on (yeah, I get it, Fred's funny, great member of the community, etc.), but I am sure he appreciates the concern, if it's not him creating the concern to begin with. I am sure if Fred wanted to come back, he would email me to discuss it - since he hasn't, I get the impression he's done with me/WATMM. Like he was a year ago before he came back.

 

 

I just want to add that I wouldn't talk about funneling castor oil into a filipina tranny's pink sock in Starbucks, in my classroom, in the library, the DMV or the grocery store. But I would talk about it with my buddies at the bar, just for shits poops 'n' giggles. And that's the kind of public place I imagine WATMM to be -- just hanging out in a crowded, noisy place where people are drunk and boisterous and jovial and a bit loose-lipped. WATMMers are my bros, and I drink and talk shit with my bros, and it brings us closer as bros (don't ask how close). That's where I make connections, where I talk real and just be the piece of shit I am. Where I get away from work and all the niceties in day-to-day life to let my inner soul glow, nasty as it may be at times.

 

So the question it comes down to is, what kind of 'public place' is WATMM meant to be, anyway? Do I need to start thinking about this forum as more of a waiting room than a watering hole?

 

nice post encey;)

and just when fred came back too!!! It is worth it joyrex to keep losing 10+ year members over strict policies? guys like fred should get free passes...

 

See above regarding Fred. And honestly, while I appreciate people's long tenures here, ultimately they are in charge of their own actions and remarks and decide whether or not they choose to be a continuing member of the community.

 

im gonna make one last post in here,

 

joyrex, i really think you should keep up a ban on unpleasant NSFW images, but let text go free. let people discuss what they want, and wander off topic. thats what made this place for me.

 

 

and words on a screen dont get cached, dont get you fired, they are just words. please consider it, because i do actually like this place alot, ive been on here 3 years longer than ive known my closest friends, and it would just be great to be able to chat about stupid shit again. with no horrible images.

Like I mentioned, I am relaxing things a bit, but sexually explicit discussions are no better than sexually explicit imagery, and have no place here.

 

And you'd better wake up - words on a screen (In an email, forum, text, tweet, whatever - can and will get you fired. Even if you yourself did not write the words.

 

Why no hide general banter from members under 200 posts? So we can have fun (in a resonable amount) and new members are not scared away. If googlebot is off here too the site will also not be indexed in a bad way

Not having Google index this site would be detrimental, as these days search is essential to any site being easily found online. Also, others in this thread have pointed out other problems with this (aka the search on the forum sucks).

[Bertolt Brechtakt]

im gonna make one last post in here,

 

joyrex, i really think you should keep up a ban on unpleasant NSFW images, but let text go free. let people discuss what they want, and wander off topic. thats what made this place for me.

 

I am completely with you!

[goDel]

Thanks for taking the time for your answers, btw. It's good to have your side of the story.

 

 

Your posts make me think you're trying to get me to "give up" and accept defeat. Nice try if that's the case.

 

 

 

Not my intention. Just giving my opinion/concerns. Perhaps I'm a bit to convinced by my personal logic. I hope people can see through that without a problem.

 

 

First off, let's address the whole "not a democracy" thing - it's not, pure and simple. In the end, I will be held responsible for what gets posted here, ...

 

.. People continue to donate to keep the site running, so obviously people like it and agree with how things are run enough to put their money towards it.

 

Everyone here has a very limited stake in WATMM - If I decided to shut the site down tomorrow, none of you has any say in the matter. You would all simply find some other place to congregate, or perhaps not even bother, since at the end of the day, it's just a forum on the internet. ...

 

I've considered on a few occasions if it was time to pull the plug on things, sometimes due to the lull in the electronic music scene, other times due to the ebb and flow of this place (WATMM seems to be on a cycle where it gets bitchy and nasty for a bit, then mellows out), and other times because I've wanted to move on to other things.

 

...

 

For the time being WATMM started, and will most likely end, with me, when I decide it's time to move on.

 

It's pure and simple, because you see watmm as your personal (unshared) responsibility. I can understand why you see it that way, and I hope you can understand this is exactly the point where my concerns are. Watmm currently lives and dies at the will of a single person. This might be normal from an internet-site point of view, but the thing is, this community is more than a site. There's a difference between site and community.

 

Using the business analogy: what do you think stakeholders and stockholders would do with a company that's run in such a way that it only takes one person to decide to pull the plug? Employers would run away. Stockholders as well. And stakeholders should be on the look-out to move away as fast as possible. Call it the democracy of the market, if you will. It's just as simple as that as well. If this is the way you want to run your business, that's fine. Obviously, I have different ideas and I hope more people share my views on this point.

 

So, in my idea, the responsibility you claim as yours should basically become a shared responsibility. Otherwise, watmm isn't more than just some personal blog.

 

To be honest, the idea you discuss the "pull the plug" thing so lightly, sends shivers down my spine. To me that basically says you give a rats ass what happens to the community after you decide to pull the plug. So the "looking past your shadow" thing is not your cup of tea.

 

That fine and all. But given this point, I'm not sure whether you want people to keep on investing in this place. In the business world, this is just a big NO. Because in a cynical scenario, you could basically have people pay you to keep this site in the air, or else pull the plug. As long as people care about this community they'll pay, right? I'm not trying to put certain motivations in your shoes. This is just a logical consequence of the current situation.

 

Also, it's good to acknowledge people don't just donate because they agree with you, they may just donate because they appreciate the community.

 

At this point, I doubt whether watmm is worth the personal investment (in any way). Other people will have their own ideas whether they want to keep on investing in this community. If they do, at least the risks are clear.

 

Whatever the case: if it works, it works. It has done so for 14+ years, so why change the formula, right? That's perfectly understandable, so I don't expect any response or change from you at this point. We basically agree to disagree, as far as I'm concerned.

[Joyrex]

Thanks for taking the time for your answers, btw. It's good to have your side of the story.

 

 

 

Your posts make me think you're trying to get me to "give up" and accept defeat. Nice try if that's the case.

 

 

 

Not my intention. Just giving my opinion/concerns. Perhaps I'm a bit to convinced by my personal logic. I hope people can see through that without a problem.

 

 

First off, let's address the whole "not a democracy" thing - it's not, pure and simple. In the end, I will be held responsible for what gets posted here, ...

 

.. People continue to donate to keep the site running, so obviously people like it and agree with how things are run enough to put their money towards it.

 

Everyone here has a very limited stake in WATMM - If I decided to shut the site down tomorrow, none of you has any say in the matter. You would all simply find some other place to congregate, or perhaps not even bother, since at the end of the day, it's just a forum on the internet. ...

 

I've considered on a few occasions if it was time to pull the plug on things, sometimes due to the lull in the electronic music scene, other times due to the ebb and flow of this place (WATMM seems to be on a cycle where it gets bitchy and nasty for a bit, then mellows out), and other times because I've wanted to move on to other things.

 

...

 

For the time being WATMM started, and will most likely end, with me, when I decide it's time to move on.

 

It's pure and simple, because you see watmm as your personal (unshared) responsibility. I can understand why you see it that way, and I hope you can understand this is exactly the point where my concerns are. Watmm currently lives and dies at the will of a single person. This might be normal from an internet-site point of view, but the thing is, this community is more than a site. There's a difference between site and community.

 

Using the business analogy: what do you think stakeholders and stockholders would do with a company that's run in such a way that it only takes one person to decide to pull the plug? Employers would run away. Stockholders as well. And stakeholders should be on the look-out to move away as fast as possible. Call it the democracy of the market, if you will. It's just as simple as that as well. If this is the way you want to run your business, that's fine. Obviously, I have different ideas and I hope more people share my views on this point.

 

So, in my idea, the responsibility you claim as yours should basically become a shared responsibility. Otherwise, watmm isn't more than just some personal blog.

 

To be honest, the idea you discuss the "pull the plug" thing so lightly, sends shivers down my spine. To me that basically says you give a rats ass what happens to the community after you decide to pull the plug. So the "looking past your shadow" thing is not your cup of tea.

 

That fine and all. But given this point, I'm not sure whether you want people to keep on investing in this place. In the business world, this is just a big NO. Because in a cynical scenario, you could basically have people pay you to keep this site in the air, or else pull the plug. As long as people care about this community they'll pay, right? I'm not trying to put certain motivations in your shoes. This is just a logical consequence of the current situation.

 

Also, it's good to acknowledge people don't just donate because they agree with you, they may just donate because they appreciate the community.

 

At this point, I doubt whether watmm is worth the personal investment (in any way). Other people will have their own ideas whether they want to keep on investing in this community. If they do, at least the risks are clear.

 

Whatever the case: if it works, it works. It has done so for 14+ years, so why change the formula, right? That's perfectly understandable, so I don't expect any response or change from you at this point. We basically agree to disagree, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Well, let's cut to the chase - we can debate one another to the end of time about the merits of our arguments, but let's condense things down like I did prior - give me your "want list" for lack of a better term in a bulleted list, and let's see if we can't come to some general agreement about the way things should go - I'm open to suggestions, so let's hear them - that goes for anyone else wanting to put their say in.

[Blir]

How the thread got off topic about Queens of the Stone Age (I see they're pulling a Daft Punk/Boards of Canada)... whatever, it's WATMM.

I don't get why warning points are never removed. Its not like someone has been killed or so. Its a really negative way of seeing things. When you behave bad you receive warnings but when you do good / trying to improve the forum you receive nothing so why trying to improve things when nothing comes back?

We actually had an addon that removed them after a set period of time - unfortunately, the addon creator didn't update the addon, so it was removed due to incompatibility. I'll check and see if there is an update or a new version. And "good" is subjective - so by acting like you should, you should be rewarded? I don't subscribe to that line of thinking myself - I see rewards as doing something more than just doing what's expected.

 

Joyrex you like to call yourself papa but do you only educate your children by punishment? I think its the wrong way to go. People also need positive achievements besides their post count

Actually, I despise that moniker. It was Alzado that started that shit. Ah well, what can you do though? I've been called worse.

 

And I do "reward" people when they do good - look at Obel - he's the AE forum moderator, because despite being a pain in my ass from time to time, he knows his AE and is level-headed and fair.

 

Do people get warnings via pm before they are banned, or is it an instant thing? Genuine question.

 

Not that I ever think I will say anything remotely likely to get me a ban you understand

 

Waiting to be told to 'read the rules'

People can be banned at any time, but it takes a pretty serious offense to warrant that - additionally, just because somebody is only at 3 warnings or so, does not mean they have seven more chances to fuck up before they are ultimately banned.

 

 

Still don't get why some of you are crying about prohibition of NSFW material here. Just go to 4Chan or some porn site if you need a fix.

 

Then what have you been doing the last 10 pages of this thread? Because it's been explained a gorillion times. We don't want NSFW material for the sake of NSFW material, we want NSFW material in the context of watmm to be shared and produced within the watmm community

 

As I've said before, I'm relaxing things a bit to see how it goes - I still do not want threads where the whole point is to post something explicit. Like our rules on language, it should be used like seasoning - too much, and it leaves a bad taste in your mouth. And there's no distinction between WATMM NSFW and NSFW - if it's not something you'd wear on a shirt in public, then it probably isn't something you should post here.

 

 

Still don't get why some of you are crying about prohibition of NSFW material here. Just go to 4Chan or some porn site if you need a fix.

this argument gets repeated over and over and some people just never get it.

no one really needs a fix, people just want to post the stuff they like for their friends in a forum they belonged to for a while. no one posted actual porn here when it was allowed, just some absurd and ridiculous gifs and stuff for the amusement. you wouldn't want to get censored in any way when you're hanging out with your bros, same principle here.

 

Oh, then you really didn't see it either, because it was there - when I cleaned things up after the rule changes, there was stuff that I wasn't even aware of, and pretty nasty - not even what I'd consider porn worth looking at.

 

The tricky thing here will be trying to maintain that balance between "oh, yeah, this is hilarious, wtf" and veering off into NSFW territory again, or the majority of threads start to be about explicit topics. I do not want it to go that far.

 

Joyrex,

 

Thanks for the answers. To be honest though, I don't think your proposal is actually a solution to the current situation. But before I dive into that, I'd like to start with giving you every bit of praise and respect for building and managing this community for the 14+ years it has been running. The amount of years alone speaks volumes. About you and all the people who have been putting their effort into it. Even the biggest Joyrex-hater couldn't deny that.

 

The current situation is, imo, about the difference between your ideas what this place is - or should be - about (and where it should be going) and that of the community. And frankly speaking, this difference alone can bring this community down. I don't say this as a threat. People reading this thread (and following similar events in the past) will probably come to a similar conclusion. Perhaps you've already come to a similar conclusion yourself.

 

In my opinion, we should use this situation to collectively look towards the future and make some collective decision about what we want as a community. The underlying implication should be that the single-man "the place is not a democracy" management style should go. This is not some issue which could be solved with "to moderate my approach to things".

 

This issue is solved, imo, by thinking about what this community would look like if you're not in the lead anymore. As you've said, you'll be 40 this year. And it won't be long until you could be dad to a large part of the community. IMO, you should be able to think about this place past your own shadow. Because this place should be able to keep on existing well after you've gone (for whatever reason, at whatever point in time). If you're actually serious about this place, which I think you are, this should be one of the things on your mind. Perhaps you've already thought this out for yourself. Maybe Chaosmachine is the next Joyrex, or something. Who knows.

 

My only point is, this should be a discussion for the entire community. Yes, this place is a democracy, whether you like it or not. Regardless of that sentence in the rules, or the amount of personal investments you've made. Especially if you want this place to be around after you have left. IMO, only a more democratic model would help this place to keep on existing after you have left. And yes, this place should still be around after you leave. At least, I hope you're not the kind of manager who gives fuck-all about what happens to a company after he personally built it up over a period of 14+ years.

 

I'm not saying you should leave. Now, or in the coming year(s). That's obviously in no-ones interest. But I really urge you to think about this place and what it should look like after you have left. And maybe, just maybe, if you look deep down in your heart, you might be better off if you pass on the banhammer to one or more people and have a more background/consulting role for the people running this place for you. But that's my opinion though. And I'm seriously not into some kind of personal vendetta. I just think that, like a business, times change and management evolves. (And yes, I'm some kind of capitalistic business dork. That's actually my job.)

 

If this is not your cup of tea, I predict you'll have many more headaches because of this place in the future. And in the worst case, some kind of "Mubarak getting kicked of his throne of Egypt" kind of scenario. The last scenario would also be pretty disastrous for WATMM, btw.

 

So please, think this through. Perhaps only for yourself, or with a small group of people. But in the end, the entire community should be able to have some kind of saying in this.

 

If you want this place to be a more civilised place, you have to treat it as such. From a business point of view; there's a considerate amount of stakeholders - and stockholders even - who should have something to say about the long term perspectives of this community.

 

tldr: this thread should be about what the Jr AND the community wants with watmm in the future

 

Also, to make this as crystal clear as possible: this is not some kind of veiled attempt towards some kind of take over. I am NOT interested in running this place whatsoever. If you don't believe me, you should read that last sentence again, but with more emphasis on "NOT".

Your posts make me think you're trying to get me to "give up" and accept defeat. Nice try if that's the case.

 

First off, let's address the whole "not a democracy" thing - it's not, pure and simple. In the end, I will be held responsible for what gets posted here, and in the end, whether I like it or not, everyone's behaviour reflects upon me, since this is my site and I run things here. A company (to use an analogy), who has employees acting poorly, reflects upon the company, and if the problems are systemic and egregious enough, then the managers, directors, and in some cases the CEO is held responsible.

 

Since I have the most risk and the most to lose here, it only follows that things will be run in the manner I see best. Am I open to suggestion? Sure. A lot of the way WATMM exists today is directly due to suggestions and input from members. People continue to donate to keep the site running, so obviously people like it and agree with how things are run enough to put their money towards it.

 

Everyone here has a very limited stake in WATMM - If I decided to shut the site down tomorrow, none of you has any say in the matter. You would all simply find some other place to congregate, or perhaps not even bother, since at the end of the day, it's just a forum on the internet. None of this is essential, nor will anyone's lives be affected adversely if it's gone. Honestly, if anyone thinks otherwise, then perhaps one should re-evaluate their priorities. Are we all emotionally invested? Of course we are - if we weren't, we wouldn't bother (and I wouldn't bother keeping this place going for so long).

 

I've considered on a few occasions if it was time to pull the plug on things, sometimes due to the lull in the electronic music scene, other times due to the ebb and flow of this place (WATMM seems to be on a cycle where it gets bitchy and nasty for a bit, then mellows out), and other times because I've wanted to move on to other things.

 

Unfortunately, I'm too much of a control freak and it would bother me tremendously if I gave WATMM away to someone else - I made that mistake with joyrex.com, not seeing the long-term consequences of someone "owning" the domain name. Now, nothing less than 1700.00 (last I inquired) will get the domain name back as it's held by some business squatter who thinks it's worth anything because it's short and a .com. WATMM is my baby, and I have plans for it - and unfortunately a lot of my free time is spent focusing on what frankly is not important.

 

And the whole idea of me being "ousted" is preposterous - I can shut the server off in less than 5 minutes, delete the entire site in less than an hour. If things got so bad that I would have to consider a "nuclear solution", then I have failed as an Admin to have let things get that bad to begin with. For the time being WATMM started, and will most likely end, with me, when I decide it's time to move on.

 

I maintain this whole exercise is simply an over-reaction to a popular member being banned (and I will remind you, he was banned due to his remarks and attitude towards me personally - the thread was merely the catalyst, and perhaps an indication that despite previous assurances, he wasn't ready to adhere to the rules in place here), and while it has yielded some positive results, in the end there is a vocal minority who worries so much about whether than can behave a certain way or not, while the majority could care less or are focused on the big picture, which is why they're all here - music.

 

Honestly, the whole Fred thing is between him and I, and really not something the community should be commenting on (yeah, I get it, Fred's funny, great member of the community, etc.), but I am sure he appreciates the concern, if it's not him creating the concern to begin with. I am sure if Fred wanted to come back, he would email me to discuss it - since he hasn't, I get the impression he's done with me/WATMM. Like he was a year ago before he came back.

 

 

I just want to add that I wouldn't talk about funneling castor oil into a filipina tranny's pink sock in Starbucks, in my classroom, in the library, the DMV or the grocery store. But I would talk about it with my buddies at the bar, just for shits poops 'n' giggles. And that's the kind of public place I imagine WATMM to be -- just hanging out in a crowded, noisy place where people are drunk and boisterous and jovial and a bit loose-lipped. WATMMers are my bros, and I drink and talk shit with my bros, and it brings us closer as bros (don't ask how close). That's where I make connections, where I talk real and just be the piece of shit I am. Where I get away from work and all the niceties in day-to-day life to let my inner soul glow, nasty as it may be at times.

 

So the question it comes down to is, what kind of 'public place' is WATMM meant to be, anyway? Do I need to start thinking about this forum as more of a waiting room than a watering hole?

 

nice post encey;)

and just when fred came back too!!! It is worth it joyrex to keep losing 10+ year members over strict policies? guys like fred should get free passes...

 

See above regarding Fred. And honestly, while I appreciate people's long tenures here, ultimately they are in charge of their own actions and remarks and decide whether or not they choose to be a continuing member of the community.

 

im gonna make one last post in here,

 

joyrex, i really think you should keep up a ban on unpleasant NSFW images, but let text go free. let people discuss what they want, and wander off topic. thats what made this place for me.

 

 

and words on a screen dont get cached, dont get you fired, they are just words. please consider it, because i do actually like this place alot, ive been on here 3 years longer than ive known my closest friends, and it would just be great to be able to chat about stupid shit again. with no horrible images.

Like I mentioned, I am relaxing things a bit, but sexually explicit discussions are no better than sexually explicit imagery, and have no place here.

 

And you'd better wake up - words on a screen (In an email, forum, text, tweet, whatever - can and will get you fired. Even if you yourself did not write the words.

 

Why no hide general banter from members under 200 posts? So we can have fun (in a resonable amount) and new members are not scared away. If googlebot is off here too the site will also not be indexed in a bad way

Not having Google index this site would be detrimental, as these days search is essential to any site being easily found online. Also, others in this thread have pointed out other problems with this (aka the search on the forum sucks).

 

 

*prints post - wallpapers bedroom*

[Guest iep]

 

How the thread got off topic about Queens of the Stone Age (I see they're pulling a Daft Punk/Boards of Canada)... whatever, it's WATMM.

I don't get why warning points are never removed. Its not like someone has been killed or so. Its a really negative way of seeing things. When you behave bad you receive warnings but when you do good / trying to improve the forum you receive nothing so why trying to improve things when nothing comes back?

We actually had an addon that removed them after a set period of time - unfortunately, the addon creator didn't update the addon, so it was removed due to incompatibility. I'll check and see if there is an update or a new version. And "good" is subjective - so by acting like you should, you should be rewarded? I don't subscribe to that line of thinking myself - I see rewards as doing something more than just doing what's expected.

 

Joyrex you like to call yourself papa but do you only educate your children by punishment? I think its the wrong way to go. People also need positive achievements besides their post count

Actually, I despise that moniker. It was Alzado that started that shit. Ah well, what can you do though? I've been called worse.

 

And I do "reward" people when they do good - look at Obel - he's the AE forum moderator, because despite being a pain in my ass from time to time, he knows his AE and is level-headed and fair.

 

Do people get warnings via pm before they are banned, or is it an instant thing? Genuine question.

 

Not that I ever think I will say anything remotely likely to get me a ban you understand

 

Waiting to be told to 'read the rules'

People can be banned at any time, but it takes a pretty serious offense to warrant that - additionally, just because somebody is only at 3 warnings or so, does not mean they have seven more chances to fuck up before they are ultimately banned.

 

 

Still don't get why some of you are crying about prohibition of NSFW material here. Just go to 4Chan or some porn site if you need a fix.

 

Then what have you been doing the last 10 pages of this thread? Because it's been explained a gorillion times. We don't want NSFW material for the sake of NSFW material, we want NSFW material in the context of watmm to be shared and produced within the watmm community

 

As I've said before, I'm relaxing things a bit to see how it goes - I still do not want threads where the whole point is to post something explicit. Like our rules on language, it should be used like seasoning - too much, and it leaves a bad taste in your mouth. And there's no distinction between WATMM NSFW and NSFW - if it's not something you'd wear on a shirt in public, then it probably isn't something you should post here.

 

 

Still don't get why some of you are crying about prohibition of NSFW material here. Just go to 4Chan or some porn site if you need a fix.

this argument gets repeated over and over and some people just never get it.

no one really needs a fix, people just want to post the stuff they like for their friends in a forum they belonged to for a while. no one posted actual porn here when it was allowed, just some absurd and ridiculous gifs and stuff for the amusement. you wouldn't want to get censored in any way when you're hanging out with your bros, same principle here.

 

Oh, then you really didn't see it either, because it was there - when I cleaned things up after the rule changes, there was stuff that I wasn't even aware of, and pretty nasty - not even what I'd consider porn worth looking at.

 

The tricky thing here will be trying to maintain that balance between "oh, yeah, this is hilarious, wtf" and veering off into NSFW territory again, or the majority of threads start to be about explicit topics. I do not want it to go that far.

 

Joyrex,

 

Thanks for the answers. To be honest though, I don't think your proposal is actually a solution to the current situation. But before I dive into that, I'd like to start with giving you every bit of praise and respect for building and managing this community for the 14+ years it has been running. The amount of years alone speaks volumes. About you and all the people who have been putting their effort into it. Even the biggest Joyrex-hater couldn't deny that.

 

The current situation is, imo, about the difference between your ideas what this place is - or should be - about (and where it should be going) and that of the community. And frankly speaking, this difference alone can bring this community down. I don't say this as a threat. People reading this thread (and following similar events in the past) will probably come to a similar conclusion. Perhaps you've already come to a similar conclusion yourself.

 

In my opinion, we should use this situation to collectively look towards the future and make some collective decision about what we want as a community. The underlying implication should be that the single-man "the place is not a democracy" management style should go. This is not some issue which could be solved with "to moderate my approach to things".

 

This issue is solved, imo, by thinking about what this community would look like if you're not in the lead anymore. As you've said, you'll be 40 this year. And it won't be long until you could be dad to a large part of the community. IMO, you should be able to think about this place past your own shadow. Because this place should be able to keep on existing well after you've gone (for whatever reason, at whatever point in time). If you're actually serious about this place, which I think you are, this should be one of the things on your mind. Perhaps you've already thought this out for yourself. Maybe Chaosmachine is the next Joyrex, or something. Who knows.

 

My only point is, this should be a discussion for the entire community. Yes, this place is a democracy, whether you like it or not. Regardless of that sentence in the rules, or the amount of personal investments you've made. Especially if you want this place to be around after you have left. IMO, only a more democratic model would help this place to keep on existing after you have left. And yes, this place should still be around after you leave. At least, I hope you're not the kind of manager who gives fuck-all about what happens to a company after he personally built it up over a period of 14+ years.

 

I'm not saying you should leave. Now, or in the coming year(s). That's obviously in no-ones interest. But I really urge you to think about this place and what it should look like after you have left. And maybe, just maybe, if you look deep down in your heart, you might be better off if you pass on the banhammer to one or more people and have a more background/consulting role for the people running this place for you. But that's my opinion though. And I'm seriously not into some kind of personal vendetta. I just think that, like a business, times change and management evolves. (And yes, I'm some kind of capitalistic business dork. That's actually my job.)

 

If this is not your cup of tea, I predict you'll have many more headaches because of this place in the future. And in the worst case, some kind of "Mubarak getting kicked of his throne of Egypt" kind of scenario. The last scenario would also be pretty disastrous for WATMM, btw.

 

So please, think this through. Perhaps only for yourself, or with a small group of people. But in the end, the entire community should be able to have some kind of saying in this.

 

If you want this place to be a more civilised place, you have to treat it as such. From a business point of view; there's a considerate amount of stakeholders - and stockholders even - who should have something to say about the long term perspectives of this community.

 

tldr: this thread should be about what the Jr AND the community wants with watmm in the future

 

Also, to make this as crystal clear as possible: this is not some kind of veiled attempt towards some kind of take over. I am NOT interested in running this place whatsoever. If you don't believe me, you should read that last sentence again, but with more emphasis on "NOT".

Your posts make me think you're trying to get me to "give up" and accept defeat. Nice try if that's the case.

 

First off, let's address the whole "not a democracy" thing - it's not, pure and simple. In the end, I will be held responsible for what gets posted here, and in the end, whether I like it or not, everyone's behaviour reflects upon me, since this is my site and I run things here. A company (to use an analogy), who has employees acting poorly, reflects upon the company, and if the problems are systemic and egregious enough, then the managers, directors, and in some cases the CEO is held responsible.

 

Since I have the most risk and the most to lose here, it only follows that things will be run in the manner I see best. Am I open to suggestion? Sure. A lot of the way WATMM exists today is directly due to suggestions and input from members. People continue to donate to keep the site running, so obviously people like it and agree with how things are run enough to put their money towards it.

 

Everyone here has a very limited stake in WATMM - If I decided to shut the site down tomorrow, none of you has any say in the matter. You would all simply find some other place to congregate, or perhaps not even bother, since at the end of the day, it's just a forum on the internet. None of this is essential, nor will anyone's lives be affected adversely if it's gone. Honestly, if anyone thinks otherwise, then perhaps one should re-evaluate their priorities. Are we all emotionally invested? Of course we are - if we weren't, we wouldn't bother (and I wouldn't bother keeping this place going for so long).

 

I've considered on a few occasions if it was time to pull the plug on things, sometimes due to the lull in the electronic music scene, other times due to the ebb and flow of this place (WATMM seems to be on a cycle where it gets bitchy and nasty for a bit, then mellows out), and other times because I've wanted to move on to other things.

 

Unfortunately, I'm too much of a control freak and it would bother me tremendously if I gave WATMM away to someone else - I made that mistake with joyrex.com, not seeing the long-term consequences of someone "owning" the domain name. Now, nothing less than 1700.00 (last I inquired) will get the domain name back as it's held by some business squatter who thinks it's worth anything because it's short and a .com. WATMM is my baby, and I have plans for it - and unfortunately a lot of my free time is spent focusing on what frankly is not important.

 

And the whole idea of me being "ousted" is preposterous - I can shut the server off in less than 5 minutes, delete the entire site in less than an hour. If things got so bad that I would have to consider a "nuclear solution", then I have failed as an Admin to have let things get that bad to begin with. For the time being WATMM started, and will most likely end, with me, when I decide it's time to move on.

 

I maintain this whole exercise is simply an over-reaction to a popular member being banned (and I will remind you, he was banned due to his remarks and attitude towards me personally - the thread was merely the catalyst, and perhaps an indication that despite previous assurances, he wasn't ready to adhere to the rules in place here), and while it has yielded some positive results, in the end there is a vocal minority who worries so much about whether than can behave a certain way or not, while the majority could care less or are focused on the big picture, which is why they're all here - music.

 

Honestly, the whole Fred thing is between him and I, and really not something the community should be commenting on (yeah, I get it, Fred's funny, great member of the community, etc.), but I am sure he appreciates the concern, if it's not him creating the concern to begin with. I am sure if Fred wanted to come back, he would email me to discuss it - since he hasn't, I get the impression he's done with me/WATMM. Like he was a year ago before he came back.

 

 

I just want to add that I wouldn't talk about funneling castor oil into a filipina tranny's pink sock in Starbucks, in my classroom, in the library, the DMV or the grocery store. But I would talk about it with my buddies at the bar, just for shits poops 'n' giggles. And that's the kind of public place I imagine WATMM to be -- just hanging out in a crowded, noisy place where people are drunk and boisterous and jovial and a bit loose-lipped. WATMMers are my bros, and I drink and talk shit with my bros, and it brings us closer as bros (don't ask how close). That's where I make connections, where I talk real and just be the piece of shit I am. Where I get away from work and all the niceties in day-to-day life to let my inner soul glow, nasty as it may be at times.

 

So the question it comes down to is, what kind of 'public place' is WATMM meant to be, anyway? Do I need to start thinking about this forum as more of a waiting room than a watering hole?

 

nice post encey;)

and just when fred came back too!!! It is worth it joyrex to keep losing 10+ year members over strict policies? guys like fred should get free passes...

 

See above regarding Fred. And honestly, while I appreciate people's long tenures here, ultimately they are in charge of their own actions and remarks and decide whether or not they choose to be a continuing member of the community.

 

im gonna make one last post in here,

 

joyrex, i really think you should keep up a ban on unpleasant NSFW images, but let text go free. let people discuss what they want, and wander off topic. thats what made this place for me.

 

 

and words on a screen dont get cached, dont get you fired, they are just words. please consider it, because i do actually like this place alot, ive been on here 3 years longer than ive known my closest friends, and it would just be great to be able to chat about stupid shit again. with no horrible images.

Like I mentioned, I am relaxing things a bit, but sexually explicit discussions are no better than sexually explicit imagery, and have no place here.

 

And you'd better wake up - words on a screen (In an email, forum, text, tweet, whatever - can and will get you fired. Even if you yourself did not write the words.

 

Why no hide general banter from members under 200 posts? So we can have fun (in a resonable amount) and new members are not scared away. If googlebot is off here too the site will also not be indexed in a bad way

Not having Google index this site would be detrimental, as these days search is essential to any site being easily found online. Also, others in this thread have pointed out other problems with this (aka the search on the forum sucks).

 

 

*prints post - wallpapers bedroom*

 

 

Teh tragedy of watmm seems to be that the person who makes the rules and collects your donations does not acknowledge the enormous value in the interpersonal connections that are made in this extremely unique place because he himself is incapable of making such connections. Despite the metrics provided regarding membership and pageviews, the spirit that made watmm what it was to many of us has been dead for some time. What’s left is a generic, repressed, blue-gray webspace where the regurgitation of bland ideas, not the synthesis of unique ones that define a community, is celebrated. A simple glance at the pinned threads atop GenBan will illustrate my point. While “Discuss anything and everything here,” the subheading of GenBan on the main page serves as a wry reminder of how open-minded the place once was, it should be obvious to most of you that there is no love for GenBan coming from ownership anymore, and when you have a situation where “leadership” as ownership would like to describe itself is at odds with its guests, the party is indeed over. So here is the one thing I guess ownership and I finally agree on: if you don’t like watmm, then why are you still here? Is it the content? Or is it because there is literally no other alternative. It's tragic indeed that ownership has the monopoly on the very magic that it despises.

 

Back some 10 years ago when I joined, I found a community of funny, clever, opinionated, confident individuals who had great taste in music and seemed to be in a similar position of needing to pass some time at work, bounce philosophical ideas off of each other, have a laugh, and in general just feel comfortable being absurd and weird. We questioned the givens of society together, we figured out how to eliminate clean breaks together, we kept it real, we kept it silly, and the end sum was an outlet for art in the form of words, pictures and ideas that was genuinely one of a kind. In life, if you’re lucky, every once in a while you come across a true friend who accepts you for who you are and allows you to confide both the dark and the light from the deepest reaches of your mind because they understand what it means to seek truth and meaning in life. I am extremely thankful to be able to say that I’ve met several such friends on watmm, but it saddens me that I will no longer have the opportunity to make more, because ownership thinks trying to come to terms with one's desire to suck a toe is yucky. Thank you to everyone on here a million times over for making me laugh, cry, fart, question who I am, and get angry when I needed it most. I’m not exaggerating when I say some of my most cherished memories happened in this place.

 

Last post.

 

*jots it down*

[Guest Funktion]

what's the matter joyrex, never sucked on a toe before

[delet...]

I'm happy with the new status quo. But would say that being a dirty insider.

[Joyrex]

what's the matter joyrex, never sucked on a toe before

No, I haven't - I really don't relish the taste of a foot in my mouth. How anyone could get any sort of pleasure out of something like that... eurgh. There are far more fun things to suck on that actually feel good and feel good doing it, anyways.

[Blir]

Like a penis?

[delet...]

I was watching one of those taboo shows on cable. And apparently the reason behind (male at least) foot fetish is because miswiring in the brain. So congrats JR, you're normal. Same here, calloused fukt up feet can get stuffed.

[Joyrex]

Like a penis?

If that floats your boat, then whatever.

[pcock]

yeah im alright for feet. i like hands. i also have lovely hands. shame about my face really.

[Joyrex]

Good News, Everyone!

I've adjusted the warning filters, so now certain warnings will automagically go away after a set period of time (no more than 30 days, no less than 24 hours). So, while this is not carte blanche to abuse the rules, if you're warned, you won't have that psychological scar of having warning point(s) on your profile (which only me and the Mods can see anyway). This does not, however, excise the notes about the warning(s), so there will still be a record of it the Mods and myself can use to determine if you're a habitual rule breaker or not. Of course, we have the discretion of making a warning point non-expire if we wish.

 

I'm not sure how this affects people with warning points before the newer system came into effect, so if you have a warning from years past, please PM me and I'll remove it in most cases.

[pcock]

i quite like mine.

also, hip hip hooray to joyrex, very happy you've rolled with the wishes of the community and slightly relaxed the situation. good stuff.

[chim]

I guess I'm abit late to the politics discussion but, ah, watmm, you are such a lovable shitfest. If this new chillaxness about the NSFW stuff is what you say it is, I'm honestly surprised. But I'm not so sure it's all Joyrex 2.0 that ruined inspired the biggest change in watmm, but a combination of the changes in attitudes and forum politics in the past 3 years or so. Joyrex 2.0, of course, has some part in it, but I'm more inclined to think of things like the spiritual divide between watmm and chatmm (and the intermittent temporary migrations, even though they're as incidental as moving to a mumu for the evening) and the divide in separate unspoken forum cliques and in-jokes that lead to political stuff like the sup banning and so on. I'm not blaming the forum administration for the bannings cause they brought it on themselves (and I'm afraid hardcode still would be around if things were otherwise), but I think we should have the right to air our dissatisfaction with events like this. To delete threads like the RIP Compson one is like censoring WATMM history.

 

I couldn't care less about not having a nice tits thread but this is the question I keep asking myself, whether the stupid injokes are really that harmful to the flashy™ and professional™ ideas you've pulled out your arse. nobody likes forums they don't hang around so good luck trying to make this site attractive to this hypothetical marketbase. have you tried presenting your ideas to an appropriate focus group?

 

And yeah I know it's just a stupid website and it's not a democracy, but I've been here for a while and something keeps me coming back. I actually think the forum has improved somewhat nowadays, but maybe it's just the resulting quiet from the aftershock of 2012's havoc. It's sad to read people I respect talking about leaving but I guess that's the way it goes.. Sunrise, sunset.

[Guest yikes]

i couldn't read all 11 pages, i read the first and last and got the gist of what's going on.

 

after all is said and done this forum while providing ALL of us with a lot of fun and diversion must be a time wasting royal pain in the ass/enigmatic clusterfuck of epic proportions for joyrex,especially considering he has a family and I assume a regular full time job.

 

i have a new found respect for him and will try to not add to the din of nonsense as I have been prone to in the past.

carry on wayward sons/daughters

[SR4]

about the foot fetish/brain wiring thing..been reading a few articles about it

 

 

anywhere between 20 to 40 percent of males are said to have this fetish, with some analyses claiming up to 70 percent. It is the second most common fetish behind breasts. And levels of the fetishism can range from simple enjoyment of the form of the foot to inability to be sexually aroused without some involvement of feet or foot-related materials.

 

 

Interesting stuff.