Warmth and Width

[user]

I've only checked the YT video that's on the plugin page to be honest. I'll give it a more thorough listen next time I'm having a session. 

[TubularCorporation]

Safe to say the airwindows dude got some traffic then. Would like to see some science behind it.

 

He has a long explanation on his web site, for what that's worth, and I forget the actual amount but if his Pateron hits a certain threshold he's going to open source all of the plugins he's brought to market over the last decade.  I'd love to see DAWs integrate the Console technology into their mixers as an option (or just add post-fader inserts, for some reason most of them don't have that and it would make Console a lot easier to set up, since the encode side of it is supposed to be applied post-fader).

 

 

I'd been hearing good things about his stuff for years but I could never try them when they were mac AU only and cost $50 each (he has something like 200 plugins right now), but since he started porting them to cross platform VST and releasing everything for free with Pateron support I've been using them a LOT.  All of his stuff is worth checking out, seriously. 

[TubularCorporation]

I've only checked the YT video that's on the plugin page to be honest. I'll give it a more thorough listen next time I'm having a session. 

 

Yeah, the Youtube demos aren't always the most illustrative, and when I first downloaded it I tried routing all of the tracks in an existing mix through the plugins to see how it sounded, and it sounded pretty bad actually.  You really kind of need to start your mixes in it to get the best results, and it really IS subtle but it adds up.  Most of his plugins are like that, stuff that's subtle when you listen to it in isolation but across a mix it all adds up.  Others are just weird, because even when something he tries doesn't "work right" on paper he'll put it out if he likes the sound.

 

 

Also, with the console stuff, it's not really a tone coloration, it's more how different sounds sit in the mix, it seems to really make things feel like they have more separation, but also feel more like they're together in the same space if that makes sense.  It's definitely more obvious when you're mixing than if you process an existing mix.

 

Also it's a bit weird to set up at first and if the routing isn't right then it usually sounds kind of bad.

 

Basically, every sound source (track or aux; you can get away with encoding submixes as a single stereo track too although I've been avoiding that) needs to hit the "Channel" plug to be encoded, and then the first thing the stereo mix hits needs to be the "Buss" plugin to decode it.  If you have any plugins or processing between the channel plugins and the buss plugin there's a good chance things won't work right.

[TubularCorporation]

 

Only recently been given a 4 track and it's real fun. Make sure any one you buy has a pitch knob and maybe some dolby switch.

 

the one I'm looking at has pitch control. I think Legowelt showed a 4 track tape recorder during a studio tour...

..found the video here;

tascam 4-track @ ~ 38.24

 

 

Tascam 424, had one longer than any other piece of gear I currently own (not counting the old Yamaha PSS140 from when I was little) and I still use it all the time, great sound.  I've had cheaper and once I had one of those fancy Syncaset racks for a while but the original, grey 424 is still my favorite. Even compared to the arguably better MkII

 

 

 

 

EDIT: VCRs with a hi-fi mode sound really good, too, although they usually end up with some pops and clicks (maybe static building up on the tape from that spinning head?  I don't know) that sound kind of like dust on a record actually, and those need to be cleaned up.  But great sound.

[granty]

i record a lot of parts in mono.. whenever possible. i find even just panning things a little off center and other things dead center and some things wider.. really just helps a mix open up and makes space for everything. 

 

putting reverb on something and turning it up until i can just hear it then turning it back down a little bit..  placing delays in different places. 

 

don't over compress, don't add too much eq.. subtractive EQ.. basic classic mixing techniques are where i start. keep it simple. 

 

i add color plug ins to different tracks.. just depending on what it needs.. but to individual parts.. not just the main mix.. also, if i use tape saturation plug ins i do it sparingly but over lot's of parts.. not just the main mix. 

 

and start at the source. the sound design etc. 

 

of course i don't know if i'm successful at this or if my mixes are objectively good. i think i've gotten better at it over the years and learned that less is more, no plug in is really magic but finding things you like that do some color w/o wrecking things is worth the search imo. 

 

i like the cytomic plug ins, u-he satin, plug in alliance VSM-3 can be nice on some stuff,  soundtoys stuff

 

automation is your friend. 

 

Solid advice. I'd also consider removing layers of sound, you don't need much.

 

Second the TAL plugins too - gutted my TAL-101 doesn't work well anymore because I'm on Logic X.

[cooliofranco]

lots of good stuff in this thread. i don't use logic, but still good stuff.

 

for spreading, in general, the Haas effect is a simple technique for making space. also i sometimes split a signal and make a bunch of complementary and strong EQ decisions on either channel, and then put them back together. not sure if these are helpful- i'm kinda just posting here to bookmark this thread.

[ceiling]

Safe to say the airwindows dude got some traffic then. Would like to see some science behind it.

Try out Fracture, Multiband Distortion and Capacitor and see for yourself, they all sound really nice. Haven't got round to using console yet though. 

[sweepstakes]

Tascam 424, had one longer than any other piece of gear I currently own (not counting the old Yamaha PSS140 from when I was little) and I still use it all the time, great sound.  I've had cheaper and once I had one of those fancy Syncaset racks for a while but the original, grey 424 is still my favorite. Even compared to the arguably better MkII

 

I don't know shit about mixing properly but I have one of these and I love it. I don't use it all the time but I have to dust it off at least a couple times a year.

 

My favorite thing to do with it is to record a little solo jam or beat, rewind and layer something else against it (if they don't work together then just mute the original) and repeat until tape is full. Things are never the same length so I just stagger them so it feels like one long jazz set where the musicians are paying no attention whatsoever to each other and randomly wander on and off the stage. So, yeah, mostly crap but there's always a couple of interesting surprise moments of brilliance. Stopped watch, monkeys and typewriters, etc.

[peace 7]

I was about to post that I have a really hard time discerning between the with and without console versions, maybe my ears are fucked though.   

 

 

The examples on the YouTube demonstrations are quite subtle.  But I've heard quite extreme improvements in transparency on some of my tracks, ONLY in certain situations.

 

Channel plugin goes on each track AFTER other plugins, then on whatever buss(es) those go to, the Buss plugin goes first.  There's also the pain in the ass aspect that the Channel plugin can't be hit hard, so input levels into the plugin have to be tweaked.

 

As RSP noted, this seems to be best used from the get go.  I probably won't use it on my current tracks due to it fucking up a lot of things (especially coloring basslines).

 

According to my short-term testing and analysis of Console4, it does create aesthetically pleasing mid-tone harmonics when summing, which may or may not drastically change your sound (input levels dependent-- for example, it totally fucked up some acid lines of mine BUT it added craaazy squelch, which if the plugin had been used from the beginning, I could see being very beneficial).  It also adds huge amounts of headroom, which can make tracks sound really open; somehow resulting in perceptible track separation (clarity).  That last effect can basically be achieved with any DAW, though, by just having all tracks with super low output levels before sub-master (though the clarity of Console4's summing is somehow thin but punchy).

 

Overall, Console4 does definitely seem like a nice tool.  But using it- for me- is one of those OCD things where I wouldn't want some tracks on an album to use it and some not- SO, if I use this thing, I want to use it on all tracks for a project.  The difference in output between Logic's internal summing and Console4's summing is significant.  I would especially want to use it on songs that only have like 5 tracks.

[TubularCorporation]

 

Safe to say the airwindows dude got some traffic then. Would like to see some science behind it.

Try out Fracture, Multiband Distortion and Capacitor and see for yourself, they all sound really nice. Haven't got round to using console yet though. 

 

 

I recommend:

 

Pyewacket

Drive

Lowpass

Power Sag

Distance

[TubularCorporation]

While we're talking airwindows stuff (which I have to admit I've become a bit evangelical about since I started using it), let's not forget perhaps his greatest invention:

 

[pcock]

duplicate a synth line/rythym track, pan kind of on opposite sides and apply different parameters on your effects to each. 

[psn]

grey 424 is still my favorite. Even compared to the arguably better MkII

 

 

MkIII, though.

 

[pcock]

when i first joined watmm in 2006, aged 16, i thought i would be able to make re-create squarepusher with an SH101 and a 4 track cassette recorder. i was sorely dissapointed. 

[TubularCorporation]

 

grey 424 is still my favorite. Even compared to the arguably better MkII

 

MkIII, though.

 

 

 

Never tried the Mk III, just the I and II.

[xox]

imo, everything's wrong in todays amateur audio-mixing world.

 

if producing itb id say:

 

1) peakings shoud always be below -6 dbfs. they mustn't be louder at any stage of processing

2) first try to mix a track completely without saturators and other plugs that deliberately add harmonics. there are many. compression by default adds harmonics so there's nothing we can do but at least try to avoid those "dirty" compressors. although, some compresors are deliberately ''harmonics free" like waves api2500 and sonoris mastering compressor.

3) use limited plugs with a melow tone like duende channel strip or softube summit audio grand channel on every channel (turn down the saturation knob on this one). knowing a (good sounding but limited) tool is the key here.

4) use good low/high pass filters a lot. some of my fav are the filters on the duende cs and cytomic the drop. other great are softube's sa eqf100 and trident a-range. again, turn down the saturaton knobs.

5) eq effects on returns

6) use compressors only if you must

-----------------------------------------------

after everything above's done and sounds good then:

7) try using saturators if and only where you must and only the best ones. only then you can begin to hope that you can have a great mix that sounds like it was mixed on one of the great consoles processed with the well known hw processors, if that's what you're aiming for.

[bendish]

imo, everythings wrong in todays amateur audio-mixing world.

 

if producing itb id say:

 

1) peakings shoud always be below -6 dbfs. they mustn't be louder any stage of processing

2) first try to mix a track completely without saturators and other plugs that deliberately add harmonics. there are many. compression by default adds harmonics so there's nothing we can do but at least try to avoid those "dirty" compressors. although, some compresors are deliberately ''harmonics free" like waves api2500 and sonoris mastering compressor.

3) use limited plugs with a melow tone like duende channel strip or softube summit audio grand channel on every channel (turn down the saturation knob on this one). knowing a tool is the key here.

4) use good low/high pass filters a lot. some of my fav are the filters on the duende cs. other great are softube's sa eqf100 and trident a-range. again, turn down the saturaton knobs.

5) eq effects on returns

6) use compressors only if you must

-----------------------------------------------

after everything above's done and sounds good then:

7) try using saturators if and only where you must and only the best ones. only then you can begin to hope that you can have a great mix that sounds like it was mixed on one of the great consoles processed with the well known hw processors

 

Yea despite starting the thread I tend to agree with this

Less is more

I'm using basically mild and clean eq, comp and stereo control on tracks and little else

[xox]

less is more, i agree, bendish

 

although i kind of know what's needed to accomplish the "great mix" i usually never follow that, cause the pure artistic creativity is a dominant force while i'm creating a track so i usully must push myself into that engineer state of mind (the left brain mode) and i do that with daw templates with all of the rules from my previous post. the problem is that i use my tools impulsively. somethimes i open max, sometimes supercollider, or ableton, or reason and sometimes i just use elektron boxes.

and sometimes i just do the opposite from the rules, like in this track, cause it's the way it should sound like, imo

https://soundcloud.com/notein/i-would-space-for-you

 

[bendish]

Yes xox (amazing soundcloud btw!)...the balance between engineer, mixer, experimenter, populist, composer etc tough one

 

Been thinking a lot recently about experimental music and how its so hard to have that truly experimental outlook and method and actually create something good

 

The idea of meter and quantise and tempo and scale and harmony and melody etc etc

 

The relation with software...the habits and reliance and tendencies...

 

Is it possible to make a well mixed truly experimental album that has variety where no tracks have any kind of similarities

 

Sorry if all that has been done to death here

[xox]

Yes xox (amazing soundcloud btw!)...the balance between engineer, mixer, experimenter, populist, composer etc tough one

 

Been thinking a lot recently about experimental music and how its so hard to have that truly experimental outlook and method and actually create something good

 

The idea of meter and quantise and tempo and scale and harmony and melody etc etc

 

The relation with software...the habits and reliance and tendencies...

 

Is it possible to make a well mixed truly experimental album that has variety where no tracks have any kind of similarities

 

 

thnx btw! ;) yes, it's a tough one. it's hard to be good at everything but not impossible. to me the most important thing is creating something that touches me but it's not solely about me, like it's more objective. i have several creatve states. one of those, that feels the best, is when i get into it i feel like a 5 t rhino, i breathe like a rhino, smile like one would smile, i became the afx figure from the windowlicker video; very strange! lol! but the state is not agressive, it's a force that wants and needs to create, to mould things for unexplainable reasons. yes, mould is the best word (is it mold? well one of those). to shape, to mould for the good. what good? idk, some higher good at that point. it very much resembles the male sexual drive and at that point i feel a track like i'd felt a woman in the highest peak of sexual drive; i want to do her good, but i'm the force. it's almost impossibe at that point to think like an engineer, even counterproductive. only later i go: fak, what was i thinking (sonically)?! but that's something sometimes i say after sex, too :) it was strage, but it was good for both of us. not something you would or could plan to do rationally, if you know what i mean LOL. it's the state that resonates with music of beethoven (with everything his) and autechre (everything ae, but strangely, mostly with the quari-era, heh), well afx too and some but very few other artists.

what i wanted to say is that music is not rational! it's a pure will, pure force, imo. but to make it consumable we need some kind of a symbolic (musical) language and it should never hurt our ears, imo. everything that happens, happens between those two requirements. the problem with electronic/computer music is that it takes too much energy from the force, too much of you ram for trivial things. playing an instrument virtuously is something completely different. 

 

regarding experimental... to me experimental in art has to be, in a specific way, about emotions, now even more then ever. yes, it can be new, not yet recognised but we as artists need to see it and feel it. that's the experimantal part, the emotions and delivery of those emotions. it's very much evident in my track from the above that it's the emotion that i'm aiming for. even the track's name is cheesy but the melodies are buried for a reason. the melodies are not something new and marvellous but they're telling the story. the part that makes the biggest part in making the track emotional is the way i buried those melodies and i went to bury them until they became emotional in a wanted way. that small narrow window we're trying to find, to feel ourself first (when you find the emotion) is worthwhile above all other things and it's the target that makes experimental art experimental, whether in music, film, photography of any other form of art.

 

everything IMO, of course ;)

 

 

 

Sorry if all that has been done to death here

 

philosophy or like mine, pseudophilosophy of art is something i can speak about to death ;)

 

btw, i've listen to 2 of your newest tracks on sc and i'm not sure what you think is wrong with your mixing skills?! they sound very much pro to me. great job! maaaaybeee they're a bit harsh to my ears. what monitors/phones do you have?

[TubularCorporation]

 

imo, everythings wrong in todays amateur audio-mixing world.

 

if producing itb id say:

 

1) peakings shoud always be below -6 dbfs. they mustn't be louder any stage of processing

2) first try to mix a track completely without saturators and other plugs that deliberately add harmonics. there are many. compression by default adds harmonics so there's nothing we can do but at least try to avoid those "dirty" compressors. although, some compresors are deliberately ''harmonics free" like waves api2500 and sonoris mastering compressor.

3) use limited plugs with a melow tone like duende channel strip or softube summit audio grand channel on every channel (turn down the saturation knob on this one). knowing a tool is the key here.

4) use good low/high pass filters a lot. some of my fav are the filters on the duende cs. other great are softube's sa eqf100 and trident a-range. again, turn down the saturaton knobs.

5) eq effects on returns

6) use compressors only if you must

-----------------------------------------------

after everything above's done and sounds good then:

7) try using saturators if and only where you must and only the best ones. only then you can begin to hope that you can have a great mix that sounds like it was mixed on one of the great consoles processed with the well known hw processors

 

Yea despite starting the thread I tend to agree with this

Less is more

I'm using basically mild and clean eq, comp and stereo control on tracks and little else

 

 

 

Yeah, also chiming in on the "less is more" thing.  even 6 months ago I was regularly getting into the 30+ tracks zone, doing a lot of doubling and layering, but these days if I break 16 or so tracks including aux sends I take that as a sign that I'm probably done and haven't realized it yet.

[TubularCorporation]

Yes xox (amazing soundcloud btw!)...the balance between engineer, mixer, experimenter, populist, composer etc tough one

 

Been thinking a lot recently about experimental music and how its so hard to have that truly experimental outlook and method and actually create something good

 

The idea of meter and quantise and tempo and scale and harmony and melody etc etc

 

The relation with software...the habits and reliance and tendencies...

 

Is it possible to make a well mixed truly experimental album that has variety where no tracks have any kind of similarities

 

Sorry if all that has been done to death here

 

Yeah, I feel like really "experimental" music is actually pretty conservative a lot of the time, or at least kind of unchallenging as a listener, because, well, it's "experimental" and that designation has its own set of expectations and conventions that experimental music, good or bad, rarely actually transgresses.

 

To me personally the most compelling stuff kind of sits in this zone of tension between experimentalism of some kind and coonvention or even conservativism, and striking a balance between the two.  So, like, for example, if I'm pushing the harmonic elements of something in a weird direction I might deliberately keep the rhythmic elements simple if not outright cliched.  If I'm going to be using sounds/timbres that are more "nonmusical" or otherwise potentially alienating, I might juxtapose that with strong melodies.  Stuff like that, not particularly groundbreaking choices but I never really hear it framed in terms of balance and tension between "experimental" and whatever adjective you want to use for the opposite of that, I can't come up with one. "Conventional" maybe?

 

I guess what I'm saying is that, whether you like it or you don't even think it's music, "experimentalism" isn't particularly experimental (in my opinion) if it's full-on all the time and doesn't have "conventional" elements to give it context.

[granty]

when i first joined watmm in 2006, aged 16, i thought i would be able to make re-create squarepusher with an SH101 and a 4 track cassette recorder. i was sorely dissapointed. 

 

You could do some great Tobacco covers?

[peace 7]

 

imo, everything's wrong in todays amateur audio-mixing world.

 

if producing itb id say:

 

1) peakings shoud always be below -6 dbfs. they mustn't be louder at any stage of processing

 

 1) peakings shoud always be below -6 dbfs. they mustn't be louder at any stage of processing

 

why? there's no real reason for this. -6db used to be the ideal headroom back in 16bit recording days for S:N reasons but with 24+ bits we don't need to worry about this. if you're concerned about clipping, fine, but many plugins can handle signals over 0db and not clip due to the magic of floating point processing. don't get me wrong, it's a good idea to aim for -6db, but not as essential as you are implying

 

 

The one good aspect of this is that it can keep listening levels low, and keeping listening levels low can result in good mixes.  Gotta trick the mind to work better sometimes, yo!

[Guest Chesney]

I have comp on every track pretty much. My mixes are not to everyones tastes but I like full as fuck, messy behemoths of intense bastard sound.

It's not wrong to do this but i'm sure if people sure my settings most would frown like an OCD cleanfreak stuck in a filthy bathroom needing a shit.