DJ Clent Accuses Machinedrum of remaking his song without consent

[dr lopez]

viral marketing for new DJ clent 12" on µ

[Alcofribas]

yeah probably

[Guest]

It is working.

[dr lopez]

did I say viral? I meant really lame...

[Guest A/D]

I find it hard to believe we didn't come up with DJ Clent in the DJ names thread.

[joshuatxuk]

I think there are a couple of intersecting but distinct issues at play here. there is a greater conceptual issue about sampling as an art form and the politics that accompany it. imo, as a purely creative process i think everything is permitted as far as sampling goes, no source material should be off limits. however, when you put a sample-based work out into the public sphere it acquires a variety of contexts which have ramifications -- cultural, political, legal, professional, etc. I think these contexts are impermanent and continuously in flux, especially since copyrights are finite, laws change and bc over time recorded sounds become more acceptable source material (if travis sampled beethoven no one would give a fuck). this whole realm of theory is most interesting to me but I think there is a much less important issue at play here which determines the quality of the issue, i.e. how the situation has been handled by those involved. imo, going to the press before discussing the issue between artists is bullshit. I would completely understand if travis was giving this guy the zomby/timbaland treatment, blowing off his concerns and distancing himself from his actions.

 

Yeah this is my take too, Travis is, at worst, flustered. Unless I've missed something Ninja Tune hasn't issued a statement, and for all I know they could be telling Travis to hold off until they figure out the legal situation. The size (i.e. distribution) and sales of an artist and their label probably magnify the situation.

I wonder if this would of been a big deal if it was from a 2011 Planet Mu Machinedrum EP or something. For example I have no idea if this was cleared, but it's pretty big sample of a major hip-hop hit and Planet Mu put it out without issue.

I don't think it's a race issue either, but sampling courtesy. I've noticed Chrissy Murderbot, another white kid, but one who is from Chicago, has a closer relationship with that scene. Machinedrum seems a bit more detached even though his intentions aren't.

 

viral marketing for new DJ clent 12" on µ

 

I was just about to bring this up. Planet Mu/Thomas/Mike P. were literally posting a DJ Clent interview (this one I think) as this went down. And DJ Clent was on Bang & Works Vol. 1 from 2010, and I don't think Travis had even put out anything on Mu by that point and was transitioning from Normrex. DJ Clent is in heavy promotion mode, probably more than he's ever had to be, and I bet this is either shitty timing or he waited to have it coincide with the new 12"

 

DJ Clent is one of the "big" juke/footwork producers who hasn't had the same crossover success (yet) as DJ Spinn and DJ Rashad. R.P. Boo is considered, arguably, the inventor of footwork, and he just put out his first LP. This guy is a legend and was very successful back in the day selling mixtapes (akin to the Houston scene in the 90s, that's why DJ Screw never signed to a major - he would of made less)...

 

 

Was it easier to release music locally and make money from it back then?

DJ Clent: Yeah, I’ve got 26 mixtapes and the lowest number of units I ever sold of one tape was 5000. You talk to someone like Waxmaster, and he’s sold 20,000 units from one tape. The money was definitely there then. [Dance Mania label owner] Ray Barney closing down definitely changed that, because he wasn’t just the label, he was distribution too. So if we had 500 tapes made, he would buy 250 of them directly from us because he was supplying other stores across the country. Losing him hurt a lot. Then Best Buy and Walmart came around, which ended up forcing all the mom and pop stores to close, because why would I pay $16 or $17 for a CD when I could get it for $8 at Walmart?

George’s Music Store was one of the biggest stores on the West Side, well, actually one of the biggest stores in the city. Now it’s gone. That trickled down and hurt us because after that we didn’t have any way to sell our tapes. Before that, I remember being 17, and riding around for one day and making like $2000 legally off of CDs or tapes. I was young, and I didn’t know what to do with the money so I just bought a whole bunch of Jordans and tricked it off. Now I wish I could make that money but, it is what it is.

 

So I can understand why DJ Clent is pissed. Let's assume he hadn't heard Machinedrum or say, Ital Tek, or any other non-Chicago producers until he arranged this Planet Mu release. Considering how tight-knit those communities are I think that's perfectly believable. He hears "Back Seat Ho" for the first time, and unlike the typical situation where they both sampled the same source, he's realized Travis sampled HIS track which used HIS original recordings of him and his lady partner. The money is physical releases in his own scene are essentially gone, but it dawns on him that the same style is being sold fairly well overseas and among other demographics, and he's not a part of it. He then gathers the full scope of how popular Machine Drum is compared to his Chicago peers and his own online presence: a slick website for Vapor City, huge numbers of fans on facebook, plenty of press, Ableton sponsorship, etc. That's why he's reacted in this manner, he's a veteran who feels that he's been unfairly forgotten and exploited. I can't prove this but I think it's a likely scenario and probably why it's blown up.

[delet...]

so has this dj clent authorized all of his samples? if not hes a complete hypocrite bitch and needs to stfu.

 

just from glancing around it looks to me like theres a good chance he's used something without authorizing it at some point

 

but if he's never used samples to make tracks, without getting them cleared first, then ok he's not a total bitch and his anger is maybe understandable. although if MD really only had one day to reply to him (and maybe MD is lying here, who knows), then the dude is being a bit hasty and i would agree with MD that it's unprofessional to go straight to press. and i find MD's assertion that he was 'given' these samples by someone and told they were OK to use, a bit questionable, but maybe it's the case, in which case MD trusted the wrong person but it doesn't make him a total dick. either way he's def not zomby. it was a sample and he built a track around it

 

but really if i were MD i would start looking into this guys tracks, find examples of samples, and contact the original owner of said samples to see if they were cleared. legally MD or ninja tune, whatever, will prob have to pay this guy, but seriously, if he has 'stolen' samples in the past himself, fuck him

 

It's not just a sample though is it mate, it's the point of the whole song. So in my opinion it is a remix of an existing song, not just grabbing a sample for some stabs or a breakdown or something. It's the whole spirit of the same song just slightly sped up and with ornamentation thrown over the top.

 

Batman would be called about this crime, Hulk would smash something.

viral marketing for new DJ clent 12" on µ

 

hyperlol.

 

That would explain why mike retweeted or whatever.

[Amen Lare]

I don't understand the issue, 47,735558% of footwork is straight-up theft then. Blatantly obvious stuff speeded-up or slowed-down, hi-hats everywhere.

[Guest fiznuthian]

Clent's an obvious hypocrit..

There's loads of suspect samples on his soundcloud tracks.. You really think this guy making boring, repetitive shit on his MPC is authorizing all of them?

[MisterE]

 

 

It's not just a sample though is it mate, it's the point of the whole song. So in my opinion it is a remix of an existing song, not just grabbing a sample for some stabs or a breakdown or something. It's the whole spirit of the same song just slightly sped up and with ornamentation thrown over the top.

 

Batman would be called about this crime, Hulk would smash something.

so youre saying that there's a fine line, where if you use a sample that's 'just a sample', whatever exactly that means, then that's totally OK, but if the sample includes the 'whole spirit' of a song, then it's bad?

 

and that if some guy uses samples heavily, but his/her use only goes right up to that line, but doesn't cross it, then they aren't hypocrites for crying when someone else samples them, if that sampling crossed this invisible line?

 

the concept of this line seems entirely unscientific and really just a matter of perception/interpretation. to me, it seems like machinedrum used a sample, and yeah it does lend a lot to the vibe of the track, but everything else seems to have been made by MD for that track. it sounds entirely different except for that sample. to me it also seems like clent is a hypocrite. but thats MY perception/interpretation

 

i don't see how you can say there is some clear differentiation between how dj clent uses samples and how MD used his.

[delet...]

 

 

 

It's not just a sample though is it mate, it's the point of the whole song. So in my opinion it is a remix of an existing song, not just grabbing a sample for some stabs or a breakdown or something. It's the whole spirit of the same song just slightly sped up and with ornamentation thrown over the top.

 

Batman would be called about this crime, Hulk would smash something.

so youre saying that there's a fine line, where if you use a sample that's 'just a sample', whatever exactly that means, then that's totally OK, but if the sample includes the 'whole spirit' of a song, then it's bad?

 

and that if some guy uses samples heavily, but his/her use only goes right up to that line, but doesn't cross it, then they aren't hypocrites for crying when someone else samples them, if that sampling crossed this invisible line?

 

This seems to be the main argument people are using against the clent case. But with the actual song that we are all discussing, he stated that he created the vocal samples by singing them. So that argument of a general air of unauthorized sample usage by clent doesn't hold water for this particular song does it. The argument you are all using is meaningless when the question is the both the fairness and genuine legitimacy of machinedrum using these samples firstly unattribited and secondly producing a cover without asking the original copyright holder for permission.

 

The problem for you guys seems to be that you like machinedrum and perhaps you also produce sample heavy music, so you are emotionally invested in defending him to the hilt over this and can gloss over the obvious theft and unfair moaning (from machinedrum) that has occurred.

 

heh ... -sie-

[Amen Lare]

 

 

 

 

It's not just a sample though is it mate, it's the point of the whole song. So in my opinion it is a remix of an existing song, not just grabbing a sample for some stabs or a breakdown or something. It's the whole spirit of the same song just slightly sped up and with ornamentation thrown over the top.

 

Batman would be called about this crime, Hulk would smash something.

so youre saying that there's a fine line, where if you use a sample that's 'just a sample', whatever exactly that means, then that's totally OK, but if the sample includes the 'whole spirit' of a song, then it's bad?

 

and that if some guy uses samples heavily, but his/her use only goes right up to that line, but doesn't cross it, then they aren't hypocrites for crying when someone else samples them, if that sampling crossed this invisible line?

 

This seems to be the main argument people are using against the clent case. But with the actual song that we are all discussing, he stated that he created the vocal samples by singing them. So that argument of a general air of unauthorized sample usage by clent doesn't hold water for this particular song does it. The argument you are all using is meaningless when the question is the both the fairness and genuine legitimacy of machinedrum using these samples firstly unattribited and secondly producing a cover without asking the original copyright holder for permission.

 

The problem for you guys seems to be that you like machinedrum and perhaps you also produce sample heavy music, so you are emotionally invested in defending him to the hilt over this and can gloss over the obvious theft and unfair moaning (from machinedrum) that has occurred.

 

heh ... -sie-

 

 

I think you're judging this case by the law, and we're judging it ethically as we're aren't the law enforcers. The guy has no problem using samples by others (until somebody got him by the throat in similar fashion), but he suddenly feels cheated when he's actually created something and others have the benefit from it. He's a hypocrite and yeah, he is right.

[Guest fiznuthian]

i'm more appalled by his overuse!!!!!! of CAPITAL LETTERS!!!!!!!! and exclamation marks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! on his twitter and !!!!!!!!!!! HIS SOUNDLOUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[usagi]

3 words: tall poppy syndrome.

 

those of you who think Travis should've stayed out of the media about this entirely, consider how difficult that is when you're being accused of something like this. it casts you and your music in a bad light, and if left unaddressed it turns people against you. I'm sure I don't need to point out why the latter is a bad thing, when you've made it big (relatively) and you're in a scene where people know each other and work with each other and vibe nicely off each other.

 

I think he has the right to defend himself in public if he's being trashed publicly (minus anger though).

 

a knew it would happen sooner or later, that a popular white 'juke' musician would end up stealing from or using unauthorized samples from a black chicago juke musician, and then act like a fucking douchebag about it when confronted

 

Love a good IDM smackdown too.

 

where are you seeing this? I want to continue to watch machinedrum fall on his own sword, please share a link

 

there aren't enough facepalms in the world for this utterly shit post.

[MisterE]

 

 

This seems to be the main argument people are using against the clent case. But with the actual song that we are all discussing, he stated that he created the vocal samples by singing them. So that argument of a general air of unauthorized sample usage by clent doesn't hold water for this particular song does it. The argument you are all using is meaningless when the question is the both the fairness and genuine legitimacy of machinedrum using these samples firstly unattribited and secondly producing a cover without asking the original copyright holder for permission.

 

The problem for you guys seems to be that you like machinedrum and perhaps you also produce sample heavy music, so you are emotionally invested in defending him to the hilt over this and can gloss over the obvious theft and unfair moaning (from machinedrum) that has occurred.

 

heh ... -sie-

 

a) i don't really like machinedrum. i don't have any of his music. i've checked it out a few times but it just didn't compel me enough to buy any of it

b) i don't personally produce sample heavy music, no. but dj clent does. but i dont

c) i still don't see where anything you've said there somehow explains how clent isn't a hypocrite. yeah we all already get the fact that clent and his baby mama vocalized those samples. just like someone else made the samples he used in his stuff. again, where's the difference?

 

 

i've already said that yeah of course, legally machinedrum and/or ninja tune will probably have to pay this guy. and that's how it should be. but if this douchebag has used samples of other peoples original music to make his own tracks, i would like to see all of those people come to the realization that he used their music without permission, and sue his ass all at once. so that after he is done handing out the money he got from MD, and paying out more money on top of that, he's standing there with nothing but his dick in his hand, for being a fucking hypocrite.

[jmbf44]

I don't understand the issue, 47,735558% of footwork is straight-up theft then. Blatantly obvious stuff speeded-up or slowed-down, hi-hats everywhere.

 

Hi hats everywhere.

 

i've already said that yeah of course, legally machinedrum and/or ninja tune will probably have to pay this guy. and that's how it should be. but if this douchebag has used samples of other peoples original music to make his own tracks, i would like to see all of those people come to the realization that he used their music without permission, and sue his ass all at once. so that after he is done handing out the money he got from MD, and paying out more money on top of that, he's standing there with nothing but his dick in his hand, for being a fucking hypocrite.

 

I agree with this.

[Candiru]

Lots of big name hip hop producers will just recreate a sample from scratch in the studio if they can't get a sample cleared. They did it for that choir sample on the first track on Yeezus. I would play this card every time if someone tried to sue me. It's never about their integrity anyway, just being opportunists.

[weakmassive]

A few more interesting bits. From Mike P's FB page:
"I don't think Travis knew the sample he was using sung by DjClent and his children's mother, as he apparently got it with a collection of samples from DJ Rashad."

And Clent commented on the Do Androids Dance article:
"He used my original vocals that I didn't give him not samples of the track that's the problem"

 

That last bit is interesting. So Clent would have been OK with it if he sampled the actual track? In the Mike P post, Clent said Rashad "didn't own them to give them out!!!!!!!!!!". IMO, Clent should have held off a bit, instead of going to the press. Looks like it was a genuine misunderstanding.

 

And this...

[Alcofribas]

poor flahblub

[usagi]

lol the butthurt on that Flahbulb

[Guest A/D]

WATMM: We Worship Artists Until They Come Within Our Orbit And Then We Emotionally Scar Them For Life

 

WWAUTCWOOATWESTFL

[Audioblysk]

Flashbulb taking a quick jab to make fun of WATMM in an online bitch fest about rights to a stolen shit footwork song via facebook is pretty fuckin funny. There are plenty worse forums out there. Machinedrum should have just not said shit and let the dust settle.

 

Oh Benn.

So you hate

[Adieu]

If you get scarred by a music forum you obviously have some shit to sort out.

[DerWaschbar]

Ah well, nice of him to crawl out of from his butthole for a second to remind everyone that he exists.

[Friendly Foil]

The 'Bulb is 2cool4watmm.

 

Don't know what you old-school WATMMers did to him back then, but it must have been truly amazing for him to remember you for so long.