Now That Trump's President... (not any more!)

[ignatius]

1 minute ago, Braintree said:

I meant specifically the policies that were put forth under the Trump administration...

oh.. i'd say none are a benefit to americans unless it's to the feelings  of a white supremacist or the bank account of some company that contracts w/ICE. 

[714681746476436]

31 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

I’m going to post some snark. 
Specifically, which one of trump’s trade policies do you think have been beneficial to Americans? 

 

24 minutes ago, Braintree said:

I would like to know specifically what immigration policy has been beneficial to America as a whole.

You both understand that policies take a long time to have a tangible affect. Both trade an immigration policies will take a number of years to show a benefit or decline (especially trade). There's a lot of hysteresis in a large economy.

However I believe the deportation of illegal immigrants (I can't believe didn't exist before) as well as increasing standards for the admission of refugees and asylum-seekers both lessen the burden on the American people. These are policies that most 1st world countries employ, and for good reason.

As for trade, the 20% tax on all imported goods seems like a very good idea to level the playing field among Americas main competitors and Refocus government spending on American infrastructure rather than globalism makes a lot of sense to me.

There's hundreds of policies, you can't possibly tell me you disagree with them all?

11 minutes ago, ignatius said:

on the whole, immigrants provide a stable work force for exploitation by the uppers for better or worse.  but it's also part of the reason we aren't aging out of existence like Japan. 

i don't know what specific policy that would be except maybe the one where the feds turn a blind eye to undocumented immigrants. or at least used to. 

america would be pretty boring w/o immigrants. the food, the culture, the music, the art etc..  also, i think our gene pool would be like a blockbuster video uniform

 

Let's be clear here. There is a stark difference between an immigrant and an illegal immigrant. I see US press and news failing to make this distinction frequently. No one has an issue with legal immigrants other than their number having to be controlled and the quality of people being vetted.  

Edited January 24, 2020 by 714681746476436

[714681746476436]

2 minutes ago, ignatius said:

oh.. i'd say none are a benefit to americans unless it's to the feelings  of a white supremacist or the bank account of some company that contracts w/ICE. 

So anyone who like Trump is racist? That's the argument you're taking?

I'll remind you that sentiments like this demean actual racism. You are eroding the severity of the word by using it in such ways. Also, who said that immigrants aren't white? Why do you assume immigrant = ethnicity other than 'white'. Weird.

[ignatius]

2 minutes ago, 714681746476436 said:

 

You both understand that policies take a long time to have a tangible affect. Both trade an immigration policies will take a number of years to show a benefit or decline (especially trade).

However I believe the deportation of illegal immigrants (I can't believe didn't exist before) as well as increasing standards for the admission of refugees and asylum-seekers both lessen the burden on the American people. These are policies that most 1st world countries employ, and for good reason.

As for trade, the 20% tax on all imported goods seems like a very good idea to level the playing field among Americas main competitors and Refocus government spending on American infrastructure rather than globalism makes a lot of sense to me.

There's hundreds of policies, you can't possibly tell me you disagree with them all?

 

Let's be clear here. There is a steak difference between an immigrant and an illegal immigrant. I see US press and news failing to make this distinction frequently. No one has an issue with legal immigrants other than their number having to be controlled and the quality of people being vetted.  

deporting undocumented immigrants didn't start under trump. Obama administration deported more than anyone. but they didn't put kids in cages, separate families or deport people who didn't commit a crime in the USA. Obama administration's immigration policies are very well documented. also controversial but less controversial than Trump's. Obama admin created DACA to keep hands off kids brought here as children w/their parents. 

why controversial? well, in some places, more than others, the gangs that have exploded in population in south america were essentially created by gang members who were deported by USA.  certain violent gangs didn't exist in places. it goes like this.. undocumented person who commits a crime in USA gets deported. person was violent gang member in USA.. gets deported to home country and links up w/other gang members also deported from USA. gang grows and flourishes in small south american country unable to defend itself against massive gangs that have infiltrated prisons, police etc... migration of people from that small south american country heads to US border because they're fleeing violence in their home country.. usa has new immigration problems.. 

that's broad strokes of how parts of the deportation experience have fucked up the world in this hemisphere. i'm not laying it all on obama's back but his policy was in part responsible for the growth of violent gangs and the waves of migration. 

 

[ignatius]

8 minutes ago, 714681746476436 said:

So anyone who like Trump is racist? That's the argument you're taking?

I'll remind you that sentiments like this demean actual racism. You are eroding the severity of the word by using it in such ways. Also, who said that immigrants aren't white? Why do you assume immigrant = ethnicity other than 'white'. Weird.

that's not what i said.. i said the only benefit to americans who love trump's immigration policy is probably because they're a white supremacist.. perhaps even if they don't realize it. 

you can split hairs all you want but trump is racist and is a white supremacist... or at least dog whistles to those people.. so supporting him means supporting those ideas even if inadvertently.  

trump: "why can't we have immigrants from the good countries like norway?"

i don't know.. why am i assuming immigrant = not white? that's really what we're talking about here. tell yourself whatever you need to to feel OK but we're talking about race. 

Edited January 24, 2020 by ignatius

[brian trageskin]

 

[714681746476436]

12 minutes ago, ignatius said:

deporting undocumented immigrants didn't start under trump. Obama administration deported more than anyone. but they didn't put kids in cages, separate families or deport people who didn't commit a crime in the USA. Obama administration's immigration policies are very well documented. also controversial but less controversial than Trump's. Obama admin created DACA to keep hands off kids brought here as children w/their parents. 

why controversial? well, in some places, more than others, the gangs that have exploded in population in south america were essentially created by gang members who were deported by USA.  certain violent gangs didn't exist in places. it goes like this.. undocumented person who commits a crime in USA gets deported. person was violent gang member in USA.. gets deported to home country and links up w/other gang members also deported from USA. gang grows and flourishes in small south american country unable to defend itself against massive gangs that have infiltrated prisons, police etc... migration of people from that small south american country heads to US border because they're fleeing violence in their home country.. usa has new immigration problems.. 

that's broad strokes of how parts of the deportation experience have fucked up the world in this hemisphere. i'm not laying it all on obama's back but his policy was in part responsible for the growth of violent gangs and the waves of migration. 

 

When your parents both go to jail, the kids are fucked. It's how it is. Ask yourself though, what kind of parent would take the risk? Illegally entering a country, with your children knowing what the consequences are. I am un sympathetic of the condition of criminals. It's a shame that a child has to suffer due to the actions of poor parenting. Do you think we should let it slide because they're breaking the law with children? Or give them better condition to incentivise them to do so?

South America is fucked. It is not a fault of the US that gangs flourish there. Believe it or not, I see south Americans as equally capable as the people in the US. They are responsible for sorting out their own issues - illegally sneaking into another country is not the way to do that. There are legal ways to enter the US.

10 minutes ago, ignatius said:

that's not what i said.. i said the only benefit to americans who love trump's immigration policy is probably because they're a white supremacist.. perhaps even if they don't realize it. 

you can split hairs all you want but trump is racist and is a white supremacist... or at least dog whistles to those people.. so supporting him means supporting those ideas even if inadvertently.  

That's what I took the implication to be. English is not my first language, but I can't see any other way to read that.

Who is he racist against? Blacks? Everyone who isn't white? I don't get this at all.

We need to learn to separate policy from the personality. No one thinks Trump is a likeable, nice man. That doesn't mean I don't like his policies. 

6 minutes ago, brian trageskin said:

 

Shit! I've been rumbled!

Edited January 24, 2020 by 714681746476436

[Braintree]

28 minutes ago, 714681746476436 said:

46 minutes ago, Braintree said:

I would like to know specifically what immigration policy has been beneficial to America as a whole.

You both understand that policies take a long time to have a tangible affect. Both trade an immigration policies will take a number of years to show a benefit or decline (especially trade). There's a lot of hysteresis in a large economy.

However I believe the deportation of illegal immigrants (I can't believe didn't exist before) as well as increasing standards for the admission of refugees and asylum-seekers both lessen the burden on the American people. These are policies that most 1st world countries employ, and for good reason.

Please cite an example of immigration policy that had a beneficial affect on the American people. In order to have a clear and concise argument, you need to have citations and adequate data. An argument borne of pure speculation is not a very sound one.

FYI, I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm trying to determine your argument.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Braintree

[714681746476436]

20 minutes ago, Braintree said:

Please cite an example of immigration policy that had a beneficial affect on the American people. In order to have a clear and concise argument, you need to have citations and adequate data. An argument borne of pure speculation is not a very sound one.

FYI, I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm trying to determine your argument.

I think you are trying to be difficult and in fact are trying to hold me to a higher standard since you may not agree with my view. 

What sources would you be happy for me to cite? I think that regardless of what I was to reference it would not be taken with authenticity.

Here is an example, in Arizona an illegal immigrant is about 140% more like to be convicted of a crime (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3099992). A focus on reducing the number of illegal immigrants surely reduces the overall crime rate for the citizens of Arizona, no? There are a number of Trumps policies that reflect this but if I had to isolate one which demonstrates this, it would be "detain all illegal immigrants until they are deported"

Now, could you please point out some of Trumps policies that you agree with? This will make sure that you are not blindly partisan and are in fact reading policies rather than being in a 'fan club' of sorts.

Edited January 24, 2020 by 714681746476436

[Braintree]

Buddy, this is how debates work. You need to give evidence for your opinion. I'm willing to hear you out but you're not giving me much.

And no, I'm not giving you links to policies I agree with because that's not the focus of our argument. That's a formal logical fallacy when you change the subject.

[ignatius]

what parent would make a 1000 mile trek w/young children on the hopes of finding a better place to live?  oh.. i don't know.. maybe a family that had no other option.. stay and be murdered and have your children forced into a violent gang or flee?  what's the best option there?? again.. per my previous post.. some of the cause of this is at obama's feet. 

re: white supremacy.. it's obvious to me that trump and stephen miller (who makes trumps immigration policy) are white supremacists. trump has always been racist. was successfully sued and fined for discriminating against black people in his fucking buildings. 

the language is plain to see since he started running. the day he came down the elevator and gave a speech about mexican rapists. and everything he's said since and the actual policies that ICE are following. 

 

[custom knob]

I think playing "separate the policies from the person" is unworkable in this case

the person in question is an authoritarian who wants no checks at all on his power, and has stated clearly, several times, that he is above the law

he is also a firehose of noise and disinformation, and is normalizing (for some folks) the idea that the truth is whatever he says it is

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by custom knob
-

[Nebraska]

 

[rddm]

1 hour ago, 714681746476436 said:

South America is fucked. It is not a fault of the US that gangs flourish there. Believe it or not, I see south Americans as equally capable as the people in the US. They are responsible for sorting out their own issues - illegally sneaking into another country is not the way to do that. There are legal ways to enter the US.

Yes or no: are you aware of the long history of the US government intervening against the will and interests of South and Central American nations and peoples?

[ignatius]

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/how-the-u-s-fueled-the-rise-of-ms-13/

Quote

 

The notorious gang known as MS-13 has become a focal point in President Donald Trump’s rhetoric on immigration, with the president citing the gang’s violence to call for a crackdown on borders and a ramp-up of deportations.

But how did MS-13 come to be in the first place?

In this video drawn from FRONTLINE’s reporting for the new documentary, The Gang Crackdown, learn how the United States itself played a key role — first when it backed El Salvador’s government in a brutal civil war that displaced scores of civilians, and then when President Bill Clinton fast-tracked deportations in an attempt to stem gang violence.

 

 

[zero]

1 hour ago, Nebraska said:

 

looks like a paper airplane...or possibly a giant mouse pointer hovering over a pan am logo...

[Hugh Mughnus]

looks like they stole it from star trek uniforms lol

[Nebraska]

it accurately plagiarizes the starfleet emblem. weird that it took "great military leaders, designers and others" to do that though

[Hugh Mughnus]

 

30 minutes ago, Nebraska said:

it accurately plagiarizes the starfleet emblem. weird that it took "great military leaders, designers and others" to do that though

I just thought it looked like the star trek uniforms, I've never seen this logo thx for posting it. I wasn't far off then, it totally is plagiarism. It's uncanny how similar it is.

[Nebraska]

i love the fact that trump's campaign manager had asked his supporters to help vote for the space force logo but it seems they just ignored the choices (and votes) that were given

[may be rude]

 

friday was good. the timestamp above is nadler's action scene. the case for the second article of impeachment, obstruction of congress, seems pretty strong, as well.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by very honest

[ignatius]

Schiff was good again. Others as well. Republicans are pissed that Schiff mentioned the alleged threat that their heads would be on pikes if they vote against trump.

I’ll be shocked if any of them vote against him. Though apparently there’s a few republicans who’ve been glued to their seats while others have left the room for breaks.

Apparently pompeo berated and cursed at a PBS reporter over Ukraine questions.


https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/24/npr-reporter-mary-louise-kelly-mike-pompeo-cursed-her-out-for-asking-about-ukraine.html

[714681746476436]

12 hours ago, Braintree said:

Buddy, this is how debates work. You need to give evidence for your opinion. I'm willing to hear you out but you're not giving me much.

And no, I'm not giving you links to policies I agree with because that's not the focus of our argument. That's a formal logical fallacy when you change the subject.

Ok, then I’ll assume that whatever Trump does you’ll have a problem with.

I provided what you asked for, and now you’re directing your reply not towards my argument. I made my point, with my citation and the next thing you say is condescending “buddy that’s how debates work”.

It’s not a logical fallacy, I was trying to ascertain if it was worth having a discussion with you. If you can’t concede to Trump having any good policies then why would I involve myself with a discussion? I could certainly point out the policies of his I don’t like, but that’s because I’m not invested in a fan club. 

9 hours ago, Nebraska said:

it accurately plagiarizes the starfleet emblem. weird that it took "great military leaders, designers and others" to do that though

Surely that resemblance is intentional? Starfleet was about discovery and peace. I think it’s quite a nice idea, and certainly better than some intimidating, industrial like design. 

Edited January 25, 2020 by 714681746476436

[goDel]

Long number, it surprises me you think Trumps trade policies do any good, btw. Even my friends with more GOP/libertarian views - so to speak - face palm his trade policies. Simple example is what is currently happening to farmers. These trade policies have destroyed trade connections in a heartbeat. Even if Trump lifts those trade policies now, those connections will be gone because new ones have been established. Or in other words, buyers will buy elsewhere. And will keep on doing so after Trump has been gone. Trump might have singlehandedly destroyed some industries with his nonsense. 

[Nebraska]

12 minutes ago, 714681746476436 said:

Surely that resemblance is intentional? Starfleet was about discovery and peace. I think it’s quite a nice idea, and certainly better than some intimidating, industrial like design. 

i agree the resemblance is intentional. that's why i said the emblem is plagiarized. nobody plagiarizes something unintentionally. it's done intentionally with the hopes that one perceives the person plagiarizing is the original author.