Linear vs Non-Linear way of making music

[thefxbip]

3 hours ago, mcbpete said:

They're also using a bit of Ableton now (presumably for Max hosting and for sequencing) as well -

https://forum.watmm.com/topic/50162-autechre-interviews/page/7/#comment-2854119

What did you program?

SB: Actually, we mainly transferred our existing patches to Ableton. The reason for this was that we were asked to do a remix for SOPHIE. At that time, we couldn't process our stems in the live setup.

RB: It was designed too much for real time.

SB: For the remix, I transferred a few of the patches to Ableton and started to dig into them. Finding myself in context. I hadn't worked with a DAW in years before. I actually didn't want to.
RB: We actually use DAWs more to master our tracks. So that was a more compositional approach to our real-time setup.

SB: We practically did live jams for NTS, the elseq parts and Exai. For an hour or so, then boiled it down into tracks, then put some layers on top, for example from other live jams, and then coded the track. That worked well.

And how did it go this time?

SB: We built it up layer by layer, very gradually, in Ableton. I don't like Ableton that much, but it supports Max / MSP patches. And then we haven't done the SOPHIE remix in ages. That only happened a few months ago, and completely different than originally planned. We didn't use a lot of the material that we had produced to get used to this new setup. And this is mainly where SIGN emerged. We met after six months of training and heard a common thread in Rob's stuff, to which a couple of my pieces fit. The album came out unintentionally.

“My attention span is a little shorter than Robs. I get bored faster than him. "

Excellent. Thanks for this.

[Nil]

Lately I've been trying to transplant my algo / generative thinking from Tidal Cycles / my Architect WIP of a sequencer to Live... and a lot can be done with its native stuff already. Not everything, obviously, but still.
I came to 2 conclusions :
- you can compose algorhtymically without a line of code or any Max/PD patch. Instead of writing the line of code, you can write according to the pattern you try to encapsulate in your algorhitm. An algo is faster to execute, but it might be significantly more time consuming to write a musically satisfaying one.
- timeline sucks, big time. But eh, I already knew that ^^ As far as Liver is concerned, the Session mode should be the only mode available. You can do a lot with Follow Actions, by splitting patterns across multiple sub-MIDI tracks, using chance and MIDI FX, dummy clips...

Ps: I've been testing https://github.com/carrierdown/mutateful and talking with its dev about current / future version(s) : super nice stuff to come with all sorts of intersting rhytmic patterns, even melodies. I did an experiment this morning using it, and within a few iterations had a quite nice riff going, with strange grooves I wouldn't have found otherwise.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Nil

[Nil]

On 4/1/2022 at 3:51 PM, Summon Dot E X E said:

This is really interesting code. Maybe I need to get SuperCollider. Honestly, writing it out in code seems easier than doing the visual stuff in Pure Data.

I've had ideas for songs before where I can imagine what I want to achieve programmatically but it's a total pain or just impossible with Reason.

Reason can do a surprising lot with all its CV/Gate sources and destinations, Matrices and CV Splitter / Mergers. And I bet it has evolved significantly since I last used it (Reason 4, 10 years ago).

[iococoi]

https://gibber.cc/alpha/playground/

is quite nice to get into the whole live coding thing(y)..browser

[Nil]

It is. Charlie's working on an updated M4L device for Gibber, that can be pretty awesome once installed.

Because of this thread, I've reinstalled Tidal, but using https://github.com/fracnesco/HackYourDaw instead of SuperCollider. Still need to reinstall Carabiner for proper sync. 
I forgot how Tidal is fast to operate...

[cern]

1 hour ago, Nil said:

It is. Charlie's working on an updated M4L device for Gibber, that can be pretty awesome once installed.

Because of this thread, I've reinstalled Tidal, but using https://github.com/fracnesco/HackYourDaw instead of SuperCollider. Still need to reinstall Carabiner for proper sync. 
I forgot how Tidal is fast to operate...

Tidal is pretty nice and specially for Jams.. 
But the downside is that you need an extern text editor like Atom for playing with the SuperDirt Quark inside Tidal. I also find Haskell a bit clumsy. 

Now I don't use Tidal Cycles so much because I use the SuperClean Quark inside SuperCollider and it is more flexible for sure. 
When I want to create stuff I just making different SynthDefs in SC to play with.


 

[Nil]

Tidal is also a fantastic compositional "studio" tool. Its extremely terse langage and syntax are its highlights, and its ability to divide a cycle into the most complex, composite grid are also super inspiring. You can control anything that can receive either MIDI or OSC with it.
Using Atom or any other external text editor is quite a minor downside IMO. Now, having it perfectly sync'd with other apps is a whole different story...

I still dream of having Tidal-inspired commands directly inside Live.

SC is immensely powerful, no question about that, more immediate in its installation and, obviously, more autonomous / self-contained... but its code is so much more verbose. Not the same appeal.

[thefxbip]

Are Tidal or SC usable for ''jamming'' a patch? like do you have to enter in programming everything before hand or you can mess things up very quickly on the fly like you could with software that have modulation knobs like MAX, VCV, Bitwig, etc?

Just curious.

Because for me the real strength of the patch process is not so much programming a patch but actually play it and morphing it manually and organically while recording rather than just let it do its thing by itself.

Edited April 3, 2022 by thefxbip

[exitonly]

I don’t have experience with Tidal but in SC you definitely can. You can build UIs and have them map the sliders etc to knobs or write values to a bus that can be read by a synth. You can do the same thing with midi. MaxMSP has a lot of extra nice to haves like the pattr  preset system and obviously dragging a slider element into a pane and linking it up to something requires much less work/thought that writing out the code to create a button in SC. SC can programmatically generate some UIs for you based on synth metadata though and that’s pretty nice.  

1 hour ago, thefxbip said:

Are Tidal or SC usable for ''jamming'' a patch? like do you have to enter in programming everything before hand or you can mess things up very quickly on the fly like you could with software that have modulation knobs like MAX, VCV, Bitwig, etc?

Just curious.

Because for me the real strength of the patch process is not so much programming a patch but actually play it and morphing it manually and organically while recording rather than just let it do its thing by itself.

 

[thefxbip]

8 minutes ago, nikisoko said:

I don’t have experience with Tidal but in SC you definitely can. You can build UIs and have them map the sliders etc to knobs or write values to a bus that can be read by a synth. You can do the same thing with midi. MaxMSP has a lot of extra nice to haves like the pattr  preset system and obviously dragging a slider element into a pane and linking it up to something requires much less work/thought that writing out the code to create a button in SC. SC can programmatically generate some UIs for you based on synth metadata though and that’s pretty nice.  

 

Excellent thx.

I think ill have to get the monthly MAX/MSP once more and now learn it for real. Pretty much did what i had to do with VCV. Have to go deeper the rabbit hole.

Edited April 3, 2022 by thefxbip

[logakght]

Yo I'm starting to learn SuperCollider and liking it. Any special book you recommend? Also I'm trying to find some musical theory stuff within SC.

[ignatius]

i took this as making a patch in something that has no timeline. it's a group of machines that run to a common clock but there's no cursor moving from left to right.. it's just output sound and sequences etc. so, it's possible to just jam turning knobs and sliders w/a mouse etc and capture the output. 

there's lot's of ways to do this and you can do it in some DAWs more or less. there's ways to build templates that don't require looking at a timeline. that being said.. it's probably way better experience in something like max or PD or even audiomulch. 

in audiomulch i used to do this.. i'd make parts of songs by saving presets in the contraptions.. then.. once i had a thing sort of complete i could jam just changing the presets of all the devices including mixers and matrix mixers etc.. and if i wanted to get anal with it could then use a timeline to program the changes to the presets and the composition would be done. i'd capture the output either as stereo or multi track and then mix. 

in ableton it's possible to do something similar especially if you have max for live. 

but if you have a modular environment like reaktor, VCV rack, max etc then you can make something that is a machine w/o a timeline and you can jam and capture it. it's like taking a picture. 

so, i think ae, after using max for so long and making music making systems that have some kind of interface that is able to make changes etc to a composition in real time or morph through presets or whatever it is they're doing.. well.. why would they want to be restricted by a lef tto right timeline? 

even ages ago like in that max patch that was shared.. the interface is just a box w/some sliders. 

[Grain Bastard]

Them sneaky them Ae boys….

 

Don’t forget Sean once said his desert island instrument would be a copy of Digital Performer and a mic  

 

The only thing we know for sure is you need a Machinedrum, Monomachine, an MPC and a Nord Modular to make what you heard on the Quarristice tour.

 

I would start there if you want to sound like them. The max/msp line is Ae’s tank driving, old bank dwelling yarn imo to throw you off the scent and protect the idm economy.

[thefxbip]

2 hours ago, Grain Bastard said:

 

 

I would start there if you want to sound like them. The max/msp line is Ae’s tank driving, old bank dwelling yarn imo to throw you off the scent and protect the idm economy.

flol

[Brisbot]

On 3/18/2022 at 2:14 AM, cern said:

 

How can someone's opinion of approach to composition be wrong?

[sweepstakes]

Re: SC being verbose and complicated and huge and inaccessible. Well, this account might prove some of that true to some degree, but it's also just tweets, and you can pull apart the gnarly bits and reverse engineer them:

https://twitter.com/redfrik

On 4/1/2022 at 6:51 AM, Summon Dot E X E said:

Honestly, writing it out in code seems easier than doing the visual stuff in Pure Data.

I think there's some truth to this for sure. Maybe "easier" is not quite the word I'd use but something more like "noncommital" - it's so easy to fire up SCIDE and whip up some noise without the baggage of some kind of visual interface. Different strokes, though - for some people the visual aspect helps them think through the problem; I've just found I'm generally not one of those people and I prefer to deliberately bring in the visuals/controls when it makes sense.

[sweepstakes]

On 4/4/2022 at 10:41 AM, logakght said:

Yo I'm starting to learn SuperCollider and liking it. Any special book you recommend? Also I'm trying to find some musical theory stuff within SC.

Eli Fieldsteel's videos are great.

For theory, to start with, I'd recommend poring over the Scale stuff in the documentation, for example SimpleNumber.degreeToKey:

[0, 2, 4].degreeToKey(Scale.major) -> [ 0.0, 4.0, 7.0 ]

[logakght]

35 minutes ago, sweepstakes said:

Eli Fieldsteel's videos are great.

For theory, to start with, I'd recommend poring over the Scale stuff in the documentation, for example SimpleNumber.degreeToKey:

[0, 2, 4].degreeToKey(Scale.major) -> [ 0.0, 4.0, 7.0 ]

Thanks my friend. I also found this https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~ruviaro/texts/A_Gentle_Introduction_To_SuperCollider.pdf

[sweepstakes]

4 minutes ago, logakght said:

Thanks my friend. I also found this https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~ruviaro/texts/A_Gentle_Introduction_To_SuperCollider.pdf

This looks promising! The most important part (imo) is buried on p. 59 / section 23 though: highlight a class/method and press Ctrl+D (or Cmd+D) to search the docs for help on it. It's like searching for a restaurant to eat at, but you can also search by, say, "tomatoes", "fried", "diced", etc.! Enjoy :)

[flacid]

Jam, cut, remix. Overdub/layer if 'required'.

Sounds, rhythms and composition to taste. 

Live play as much as possible. 

Play and taste is what makes your music yours. 

[marf]

who fucking cares. If autechre wants to explain non linear, great. But it comes down to one thing for me. Am I have fun? Lots of fun. Thats the only reason I make music. 

[sheatheman]

https://williamfields.bandcamp.com/album/fieldsos
 

Anyone heard this? Deep learning genre-generated music. Honestly pretty crazy. 

[sheatheman]

re: Sean, it’s not a mystery, and he is just messing around probably.

music composition is 3 things:

1 your brain

2 devices of abstract to concrete translation

3 definition.

Different methods of composition use the three above pillars in different ratios.

music is always linear, because time is linear.
 

Maybe you are just programming devices to generate music for you, and programming the music to be off-grid. That’s maybe 20%(1),70%(2),10%(3)

Or maybe you use field recordings and edit them with effects. That’s maybe 20%/10%/70%
 

and singer song writer is maybe 60/10/30

[Brisbot]

On 3/18/2022 at 2:14 AM, cern said:

People like Sean from Autechre always seem to bash on people that making music in a Linear way.
It is extremely limited compared to making music In a non-Linear way according to him.

I wonder.. In what way is it more limited? Linear-music making is also created with sounds/noise made in a amount of time right? Do you unlock more time if you get it done in Non-Linear way?

What way is the best way to sequence music ? 

How do you sequence your music if not the traditional way?

Peace 
 

So this is just my philosophy on this. But how you choose to approach a track greatly influences the end product.

If I make it with mostly midi and parameter automation, then it's more likely going to come out as VERY melody driven. 

HOWEVER my prefered way of making music these days is instead to make lots of cool sound design. Find bits I like the most. Lump them together. And FOCUS on what composition types would allow me to BEST USE the sound design. The two types of ways of making music sound almost like another artist made them

And this also applies to choosing to start a song with a chord progression, or a bassline, or the drums. They all feel like different styles when I listen to them. 

For example, a song that is built around vocals means the instruments are there  to strengthen the vocals. There;s a reason why guitar solos are a thing in rock music. So the guitarist can do his ownthing without needing to support the vocalist. 

If you make a song with no vocals, suddenly that opens up a TON of things you can't really do with vocals. Now any instrument can be the 'focus' instrument where everything is built around. Same thing applies to music with drums, and without. It's much easier to make lush ambient music when you don't have to conform to drums, which in turn frees up the ambient music to do more things.

 

[ignatius]

On 4/10/2022 at 7:07 AM, sheatheman said:

https://williamfields.bandcamp.com/album/fieldsos
 

Anyone heard this? Deep learning genre-generated music. Honestly pretty crazy. 

it's my fav of his releases. it's when i can really hear the algorithms making choices. i like the story of it too. program in the style. press go. come back when it's done.