Your Stereo

[Hugh Mughnus]

use this first: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

make sure you get about 110db spl at your listening position, it's unlikely that you'll need more than that. then, seek out a flat measuring (on and off axis) speaker that can reach that and an amp or a receiver that can provide the juice (the latter is usually cheaper while offering more due to being positioned in a different and a more competitive market). ignore all reviews that do not measure the stuff they allege to review, they're payola or just talk out of their ass (for example whathifi, cnet).

 

some brands to pay attention to (not saying that everything they produce is great, but it's likely to be good): jbl, revel, genelec, neumann, adam, nht, canton, selah, psb, kef (though overpriced)

 

shit to avoid: modern b&w, modern klipsch

 

used speakers are also a very good idea, because decent speakers can last decades without any degradation.

 

Good advice and that's a great tool.

 

I actually have a pair of 1980s JBL L80ti, and sure enough, they pound and sound quite good especially for the price. Currently not using them though, using some ancient (1978 I think) frat house style huge Cerwins (e-715s) lol. Those are what I'm looking to replace.

 

I was considering the high end of that JBL range though, used like you said... The 5000ti (I think it's the same as the L250ti but was just branded diff in Europe, I'm not sure...). 

 

I didn't know about some of those brands, thx for sharing.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Bulk VanderHooj

[TubularCorporation]

at 100db SPL you're going to suffer permanent hearing loss with about one minute of exposure.  You don't EVER need 110db SPL at your listening position. 

 

Anything about 90db spl at the listening position is starting to ask for trouble, really.  I had my monitors calibrated to 83db spl at the listening position and even that was physically uncomfortable for any kind of sustained nearfield listening in a normal sized living room, I've got them at 74db spl now and it works great.

 

These are broadcast standards for monitor calibration levels by room size, and they're a really good starting point, especially for home theater :

 

Room Size (m3)    Room Size (ft3)        Reference Level (dBC)
566 m3                  >20,000 ft3              83 dBC                       
284-566 m3           10,000-20,000 ft3    80 dBC
143-283 m3           5,000-10,000 ft3      78 dBC                       
42-142 m3             1,500-5,000 ft3        76 dBC
<42 m3                 < 1,500 ft                 74 dBC  

 

 

 

But whatever you use as a reference, 110db SPL is way too high for safe listening.    

Edited December 15, 2018 by RSP

[Hugh Mughnus]

I imagine he meant dBA?

 

edit: I just assumed he meant dBA 

Edited December 15, 2018 by Bulk VanderHooj

[TubularCorporation]

Anyhow, it's a bit cluttered right now but this is what I listen on right now.  Technics SP-15 turntable, early 80s NAD 7130 (it's decent, I have a Scott 299C tube amp from the mid 60s but it needs some service I can't afford or do myself, so the NAD is filling in), AR 3ax speakers ca. 1970.  Whole system cost about $120 ($80 for the turntable, $40 for an original midrange driver for one of the speakers plus a backup).  Sounds great, the highs aren't hyped like modern speakers but that's what I like, and why I've been using old AR speakers for ages. If you listen to a modern mix there is plenty of high end in there, it just isn't exaggerated - modern speakers tend to be designed around sounding good in a showroom when you're comparing them to to other speakers so you're more likely to buy them, and to my ear at least that ends up making them overly bright and hard to listen to for long periods of time.  Oberheim Space sounds amazing on these ARs.

 

The computer is a server for livestreaming, not part of the stereo.  The RCA cables hanging out are for when I need to patch some kind of digital media player (usually a laptop) in or sample from vinyl.  Haven't owned a CD player or DVD player or anything like that in at least a decade because why bother?

 

 

 

EDIT: I know technically they should be toed in a bit and I had them that way for most of the year but I always end up going back to no toe-in, I just prefer the sound that way.

Edited December 15, 2018 by RSP

[Hugh Mughnus]

I've got a spare NAD amp downstairs, nice clean power. Only switched it out because I needed more power. 

Edited December 15, 2018 by Bulk VanderHooj

[markedone]

That technics sp15 is gorgeous.

 

Heres my stereo.  Olsen ra606 mixer, into Pioneer Sa5800 amp, going to two re-boxed pioneer speakers. Panasonic portable cassette deck for tapes.  Technics1200, currently spinning incunabula for all the watmm heads.  I also have a pair of mediocre bose speakers, not pictured, to send the music outside.  Tricky routing of the speaker cable along the ceiling beams and in corners.  Was a pain in the ass to set up but worth it.

All the speakers / amp are all secondhand, mainly goodwill finds.  The only thing I spent a pretty penny on was the technics1200..

 

Im actually not sure what model the pioneer speakers were, some middle of the road 80's pair.  But basically when I moved to a new country, to save space I took the speakers and crossover out of the particle board boxes and shipped just the speakers.  Then made simple mdf boxes of a similar size and reassembled everything here.  Was a bit harder than it sounds, but IMO worth it because I got them to fit exactly in the space I have, and I also got to arrange the speakers into a funky pattern.  Theyre nothing amazing quality wise but have nice full sound and I cant complain.  Also diy record boxes from the leftover mdf.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Marked x 0ne

[TubularCorporation]

I'm still shopping and researching etc to upgrade all of my components but I really don't know where to turn these days without paying a consultant...?

 

I want high spl efficient but quality sounding speakers like they used to make in the 70s-late 80s (think JBL etc) but companies don't seem to cater to that market anymore or something?

 

The room I'm dealing with is quite large. 

 

 

le-sigh 

 

 

I couldn't name the model off the top of my head by Technics made some really nice three way speakers with 12"  woofers in the early to mid 80s that I've heard nothing but good about.  They tend to be expensive online (last pair I saw was around $700) but they show up much cheaper at thrift shops from time to time. I saw a working pair for $60 a couple years ago and still regret not having enough money to get them.  One of my old roommates used to use them and I think he paid about $25.  An old bandmate who ran a working studio was always on the lookout for them for actual monitoring use, too, apparently they make good midfields.

Edited December 15, 2018 by RSP

[Hugh Mughnus]

Interesting. I know next to nothing about technics speakers. I'm going to dig into that a bit and see what I can find.

[TubularCorporation]

That technics sp15 is gorgeous.

 

Heres my stereo.  Olsen ra606 mixer, into Pioneer Sa5800 amp, going to two re-boxed pioneer speakers. Panasonic portable cassette deck for tapes.  Technics1200, currently spinning incunabula for all the watmm heads.  I also have a pair of mediocre bose speakers, not pictured, to send the music outside.  Tricky routing of the speaker cable along the ceiling beams and in corners.  Was a pain in the ass to set up but worth it.

 

All the speakers / amp are all secondhand, mainly goodwill finds.  The only thing I spent a pretty penny on was the technics1200..

 

Im actually not sure what model the pioneer speakers were, some middle of the road 80's pair.  But basically when I moved to a new country, to save space I took the speakers and crossover out of the particle board boxes and shipped just the speakers.  Then made simple mdf boxes of a similar size and reassembled everything here.  Was a bit harder than it sounds, but IMO worth it because I got them to fit exactly in the space I have, and I also got to arrange the speakers into a funky pattern.  Theyre nothing amazing quality wise but have nice full sound and I cant complain.  Also diy record boxes from the leftover mdf.

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, the SP-15 is a treasure.  Only issues are the play button sticks a bit when the weather gets cold, and around 2010 both of the springs for the lind hinges snapped at the same time, so I have to take the lid off completely when I use it, since it won't stay open.  Someone found it covered with punk stickers in a snowbank in the mid 2000s and brought it in to the record shop where I was working.  I gave the owner $80 and a pair of speakers for it, the only thing wrong was that one of the wires from the headshell to the cartridge had come unplugged.

 

That place was a goldmine, I'm still kicking myself for not scrounging up the money to get the Transcriptor Skeleton we had for $100 (not counting my 25% employee discount) when I first started working there.  Also passed up a pair of AR-1 speakers for about $60 because they were too heavy to carry home on the subway.  And could have had a working Triadex Muse for $80 if I had been working that day (the owner would only offer the guy who had found it in the garbage $40 so we didn't get it).  At one point we had two Technics SP-10 turntables in custom plnths with good arms for $100 each, but they didn't include the external rackmount power supplies.  Those things are probably the best direct drive turntables ever made, though - Technics allegedly used to demo them in the 70s by having a fully grown man stand on the platter and get spun around, because the motor and bearing were that good. But even as it is I came out of there with a god stereo, a good record collection and a much, much better music education than I got in college.

 

 

I love the look of that Pioneer amp you have! 

Edited December 15, 2018 by RSP

[TubularCorporation]

Interesting. I know next to nothing about technics speakers. I'm going to dig into that a bit and see what I can find.

 

 

I can't for the life of me remember the model, but I think there's one specific one that people want.

 

EDIT: not 100% (and it's not really helpful anyhow) but I'm pretty sure they're visible next to Corey Feldman in this:

 

 

If that's not them it's a similar model, the white woofers were pretty distinctive.

Edited December 15, 2018 by RSP

[TubularCorporation]

I've also seen some really promising 60s/70s Electro-Voice hi fi speakers with 12" woofers at the local Good Will over the years but for a while they had the bright idea of pricing speakers individually rather than as pairs and shipping each speaker to a different store location, so I've never found a PAIR of them.

[eugene]

regarding spl, 105db spl peak is a common and acceptable thx standard. you DO want your speakers to reach those peaks without falling apart and crackling and clipping. live concerts, even classical music ones reach even higher levels.

 

 

also, don't fetishize and romanticize old gear, it's mostly shit. audio reproduction is an exact science, and the path to high quality reproduction is picking out gear that performs well (=as linear as possible) objectively. that's unsurprisingly also the type of gear people prefer in blind tests (jbl/harman people do a lot of research in this field).

[Hugh Mughnus]

JBL doesn't really make loudspeakers though anymore do they? Only in wall, or they have the M2s and their home stereo equivalent (I think they're the 4632 or something). But those are 20k US.

 

Older speakers (specifically JBL and altec lansing (same thing I know)) have always sounded really good to me. Even my l80t-s from almost 40 years ago rock pretty hard?

 

edit: speakers seem to be going the way of sports cars - you really, really have to pay to get a good product.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Bulk VanderHooj

[eugene]

actually jbl's lsr305 and the bigger lsr308 monitors are probably the best speakers for their price ever produced, they come very close to perfection and only cost a few hundred bucks.

[Hugh Mughnus]

actually jbl's lsr305 and the bigger lsr308 monitors are probably the best speakers for their price ever produced, they come very close to perfection and only cost a few hundred bucks.

 

Do you know where I can shop for their newer stuff? 

 

Their website shows no floorstanding speakers or monitors. American site is the same. Even amazon is just Bluetooth speakers and shit. =/

 

https://ca.jbl.com/loudspeakers/

Edited December 15, 2018 by Bulk VanderHooj

[TubularCorporation]

regarding spl, 105db spl peak is a common and acceptable thx standard. you DO want your speakers to reach those peaks without falling apart and crackling and clipping. live concerts, even classical music ones reach even higher levels.

 

 

also, don't fetishize and romanticize old gear, it's mostly shit. audio reproduction is an exact science, and the path to high quality reproduction is picking out gear that performs well (=as linear as possible) objectively. that's unsurprisingly also the type of gear people prefer in blind tests (jbl/harman people do a lot of research in this field).

 

 

Fair enough, I was thinking RMS not peak but even peak 110 is pushing it.

 

 

I don't romanticize old gear, I mix through pretty modern monitors (because in a mix I'm going for detail and accuracy, not pleasant sound - I'm using a pair of APS Coax - thanks Nil - and they're fantastic monitors for mixing and one of the best investments I've ever made on gear but for casual listening they don't sound good at all, they're harsh and unflattering and sterile) and work mostly digitally but for listening I've consistently found that old gear sounds better to me. Not necessarily more accurate but better.  It's a matter of taste. I've heard very expensive, well set up modern sound systems and so far none of them have done it for me.  Audio is as much an art as a science.  I've hear plenty of scientifically designed acoustic instruments (mostly guitars and violins - loo up tap tuning) over the years and most of them sound bland at best.  There's objectively accurate and then there's subjectively good, both are valid goals but they're also very different. 

 

What I'm saying is absolutely fetishize old gear if it makes your subjective listening experience better.

[eugene]

subjectively people tend to prefer accurate gear when they are put in controlled blind test conditions, ie when only the speakers are the only thing that's being tested, so taste isn't really a factor here.  (see research by floyd toole and sean olive for details)

there's only one way to properly reproduce the recording, and it's via gear that doesn't distort it. if you don't like how something sounds via accurate gear (assuming the recording was made using such gear as well), then you simply don't like the artistic choices made, and this becomes a different issue entirely, and not a technical one.

 

i mean you wouldn't go to a gallery wearing pink tinted glasses or something, so why distort the records of your favorite musicians using shitty gear..

Edited December 15, 2018 by eugene

[TubularCorporation]

Because it sounds good.

[Hugh Mughnus]

Somewhat analagous to the argument for listening to vinyl vs digitals; there's a certain warmth or different qualities to different stereo setups. I personally enjoy certain colourations of different artists, mediums etc. Edit: slight colourations. 

 

Also one of the reasons people buy different cartridges for their turntables, no?

 

Edited December 16, 2018 by Bulk VanderHooj

[TubularCorporation]

I'm being flippant but the fact is we don't actually listen to music in controlled blind test conditions in real life, and all of the extramusical factors of the experience of listening to music are real (even stupid shit like $1000 power strips are going to change the way music sounds to you if you're gullible enough to believe in them).

 

 

If it sounds good it sounds good.

[Guest Ovitus]

vintage gear like tube amps are neat but you could probably get away EQing towards bright, warm, or neutral sounds if you were so inclined. It may add some 'warm' distortion to the harmonics, but provided your amp is powerful enough to drive your speakers and or headphones, it's not something I'd care too much about for listening to recorded music

 

another analogy, i could get all nostalgic about seeing shows and stuff through a boob tube tv, but not something I'd want to use outside of that novelty. though you could argue audio technology (speakers, amps) hasn't changed much over video the past few decades.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Ovitus

[eugene]

yeah, if you like to tweak your sound then do it with all kinds of dsp and eq, but don't get an permanent facial tattoo of sorts with some kind of screwy speakers or a tube amp that might sound fun in some very particular context and with some very particular record, but otherwise will trash your music.

[custom knob]

i quite like the sound of tubes, even if it is just nice distortion

theres a lot of pretty decent music thats also bright and brickwalled that i think sounds nicer on tubes (less acurate to the recording, sure)

[dingformung]

But shouldn't it left to the artist what kind of distortion they wanna add to their music? It's not that tube distortion can't be added to the mix before it gets played through your speakers, is it? I want the music to sound exactly as it sounds and as it's intended to be.

Edited December 16, 2018 by darreichungsform

[custom knob]

i don't know, sometimes i feel the artist doesn't get 100% say in how the music sounds