Germany NYE attacks

[chenGOD]

 

Limpy - when you post an article, and provide no context beyond "what the actual fuck?" combined with your admiration of Sam Harris, it's easy to misconstrue your argument.

 

I also happen to believe that the religious aspect is largely irrelevant - ISIS wants, well let me quote Kendrick here:

 

"All my life I want money and power

Respect my mind or die from lead shower

I pray my dick get big as the Eiffel Tower

So I can fuck the world for seventy-two hours"

 

The religious aspect is simply a means of using religion to control the people they colonize, much like has been done throughout history, with all religions. Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism - these are means to control, yes, but they have little to do with the end goal of ISIS.

So for me, the question of how to solve ISIS is not to equate the religious beliefs as a source for their barbarism, but simply call out the acts of barbarism for what they are. This does not absolve ISIS of the obviously heinous shit that they are doing, but it does move the narrative into a more constructive space - i.e. away from the idea that this is Muslims vs. the west (which it obviously isn't).

 

So yes the throwing of stones at the transgender people was obviously not on, but what I was trying to indicate by posting the links that I did is that "religious beliefs" per se are not the root cause, it's a warping of religious beliefs (be they Christian, Buddhist, Islamic) that cause individuals to act this way.

When you combine them with terrible economic and infrastructure conditions like those that exist in Syria and Iraq (side note - yesterday was the 25th anniversary of the beginning of the US bombing campaign in Iraq), the impressionability of young people (the three assailants were between 16-18) and a whole host of factors beyond just "religious beliefs made them do fucked up things".

 

Why should they be thrown out? Why not simply punish them under the laws of the country? Doesn't that send a stronger message? "You are our guests here, and you will respect our way of life or you will be punished for it. This (policing plus legal system) is how we maintain our way of life."

As opposed to "We can't deal with you guys, so we're going to send you back to the shithole we helped create through our fucked up foreign policy."

What does it say about the belief in the strength of our legal systems if we can't enforce it on three teenagers?

 

I think we've reached a stalemate on whether ISIS is motivated by religious beliefs or not, so I'll just bite my tongue.

 

 

Instead, I'll just condescendingly leave this wiki link here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

 

 

So essentially you don't have an argument - because I'm not saying that "no Islamic person would do this" I'm saying it is not the primary motivation for ISIS.

[Candiru]

>implying that a surgeon from somalia must be into FGM by default

"If a surgeon from Somalia" does not equal "all surgeons in Somalia" I think you will find, if you were to read without outrage goggles on.

[Guest WNS000]

"Not all refugees" does not necessarily mean "an overwhelming majority".

 

A sufficient amount of probability of danger/problems == a danger/problems.

[Candiru]

Somalia has some of the highest rates of female genital mutilation in Africa, so I used it as an example of a place where this unpleasant practice is very prevalent and most people with somewhat normal values would say "no thanks" to. Pretending you care about some surgeons in a country you only started really thinking about 5 minutes ago doesn't make you seem any more progressive or enlightened. Maybe you'll get some thank you letters in a language you don't understand that you can pin to your refrigerator.

[BCM]

without wishing to get too deeply involved in this thread i completely agree with candiru and disagree with MGF (on this issue).

[caze]

I never laughed at 9/11. i have laughed at things about 9/11 which usually revolve around the core piece of logic that it was an incredibly tragic event. to laugh is to acknowledge this fact. this is a petty argument and gross misunderstanding. also that for shame part is lulz...i will remember that.

 

"I don't think laughing at things about 9/11 is wrong but i do think if a whole bunch of people find it greatly offensive it is a dick move to do it."

[KovalainenFanBoy]

for my TEDx talk I'm just gonna feed this thread to a speech synthesizer

[LimpyLoo]

 

this from a person who laughs at 9/11. for shame.

I never laughed at 9/11. i have laughed at things about 9/11 which usually revolve around the core piece of logic that it was an incredibly tragic event. to laugh is to acknowledge this fact. this is a petty argument and gross misunderstanding. also that for shame part is lulz...i will remember that.

 

 

 

 

re: hedbo - when your first defense is to cry 'free speech' it proves that there is no logical or ethical defense, or at least those concepts are not a priority.

Holy shit, Mesh...tell me you're joking my friend...

 

not at all. this is usually the first card people play when they are called out for spouting racist nonsense or anything generally hateful. instead of trying to defend themselves on any other grounds they instead redundantly remind us that free speech is a concept that exists as if anyone were questioning that fact in the first place.

 

yknow limpy for a 'lefty' or a 'liberal' or whatever you consider yourself you're painfully conservative, or at least you have a habit of repeating the same garbage talking points they stick to time and time again.

 

1) Are you one of those people who thinks drawing Muhammad is racist?

 

 

2) I have talked extensively on here about "sounding liberal" vs "having actual liberal goals for this world" and how the two are often conflated.

 

If I'm being honest, I think you are most interested in sounding liberal.

 

As someone who cares about human rights, LBGT rights, scientific literacy, etc I am indeed highly critical of religious beliefs and culture (to the extant that the former and latter are incompatible). Whereas you want your cake and to eat it to, somehow unaware that eating your cake precludes you from having it.

 

 

you have absolutely referred to yourself as a liberal and whatnot. i would go and find the post but it would be impossible to remember where it was.

 

i don't think drawing muhammad is racist but i do think if a whole bunch of people find it greatly offensive it is a dick move to do it. how does this relate to my point though? i think what i said about cowards crying free speech is a pretty self contained nugget of truth. if their first response was to instead defend their actions on grounds of logic or ethics then i think it shows there is at least something backing them up. but the 'free speech' defense is a distraction. it's basically just saying 'hey, i'm allowed to say this' without explaining the actual intent behind saying it.

 

the tired point of people just trying to 'sound liberal' is a distraction from having to actually discuss and dismantle what they are talking about. and if you really think this is a primary concern of mine then you should read some of my more moderate opinions on other issues like syria, radical feminism, and general disenchantment with the one dimensional nature of the left-right paradigm (which i admittedly reinforce for convenience in frustration f not having a better shared understanding of a concept that moves beyond this idea). it's all in this book i am writing coming out on Penguin Modern Classics in july this year, I will be touring your state so do keep an eye out for me.

 

 

 

 

 

1) Yes, I am far left...i would never ever suggest otherwise

 

2) If someone is offended by a drawing of Muhammad (or Jesus or Buddha or whoever), it's their job to fucking get over it, it's not the world's job to censor itself to avoid hurting their feelings.

 

You wanna talk about what "liberal" means? Whatever it means, it can't mean de facto blasphemy laws.

 

My point (which you seemed to confuse for my denying that I'm a lefty) is that there is a difference between "sounding liberal" and having actual liberal principles. The world you are implicitly advocating for will be a non-liberal hellhole. We will be paralyzed by a fear of offending. Imagine that fucking world. This is what you are advocating for.

 

In short, if someone is offended by a cartoon, then that is their problem. There is no debate to be had about 'cultural sensitivity', about "well, what was the substance of the cartoon?" It doesn't matter what the cartoon was about: Hitler raping Jesus in the asshole and then cumming on his lower back? It's not my thing, but luckily we don't live in fucking North Korea.

 

If I were you, I would think about what your liberal Utopia would look like, and then work backwards from there. Because all you're doing here is making 'tolerant', PC noises and you're unknowingly pointing this world in a shitty direction.

[LimpyLoo]

For those who aren't up on the details:

 

Police Chief fired over covering up Cologne attacks: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12088994/Cologne-sex-attacks-Two-immigrant-suspects-arrested-carrying-note-in-German-and-Arabic-saying-I-want-to-have-sex-with-you.html

 

Similar attacks in Sweden (also covered up by police): http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-not-only-germany-that-covers-up-mass-sex-attacks-by-migrant-men-swedens-record-is-shameful/

 

Subsequent rise in anti-immigrant attacks: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/black-immigrant-paris-n466771

[Lane Visitor]

re: hebdo, it's simple.. world religions and prophets have been talked shit about since the dawn of time. blasphemy/mockery is just part of popular culture at this point. islam, like all major religions, along with judeo-christian culture, capitalism, communism, patriarchy, the church, etc etc, are ideas and symbols of authority, status quo, and power throughout globe. people take shots at authority figures and symbols on the regular, it's what humans do. No power/symbol is immune, nor should they be.

[Guest WNS000]

 

No power/symbol is immune, nor should they be.

 

Signed.

[KovalainenFanBoy]

if someone's gonna fuck you up it's the people at the top, not some nobody from syria

 

this sounds cliched as fuck but still, redirect your energies somewhere more useful. Refugees are a symptom, not a problem

[caze]

are you telling us to go join the syrian civil war?

[Guest WNS000]

 

Refugees are a symptom, not a problem

 

No. Refugees are a problem for Europe and a symptom of Middle East problems.

[KovalainenFanBoy]

are you telling us to go join the syrian civil war?

 

no

 

 

yes

 

[Guest WNS000]

 

are you telling us to go join the syrian civil war?

 

no

 

 

yes

 

 

 

A women's cypher.

[doublename]

thatspanishmujahid

 

 

 

 

[KovalainenFanBoy]

I mean, this country was moorland for centuries and it went just fine. Maybe it's time they take it back. And some new territories too. Don't knock it til you try it

[watmmisdead]

I dont know. Im in canada, and even with money in their pockets, there are fundamental difference between most musulman and westerners.

 

Women rights in most musulman countries is terrible.

Islam is in many ways fundamentally different then western culture where humanism, Human rights, equality of sex, freeedom of speech is a at least a goal.

 

Just ask any women teacher how they feel toward musulman men. All my family are teachers, and they complain more and more how musulman boy do not really respect women teacher.

animals, ok,

but what those anti-immigrants people suggest? track down all the refugees, send them back, close the borders (is this even possible?) but then maybe they also shouldn't travel to these countries, for a summer vacation, or bring goods from them, for ex, or we goona just exploit their resources

they are not refugess, they are economic migrants

[usagi]

I dont know. Im in canada, and even with money in their pockets, there are fundamental difference between most musulman and westerners.

 

Women rights in most musulman countries is terrible.

Islam is in many ways fundamentally different then western culture where humanism, Human rights, equality of sex, freeedom of speech is a at least a goal.

 

Just ask any women teacher how they feel toward musulman men. All my family are teachers, and they complain more and more how musulman boy do not really respect women teacher.

animals, ok,

but what those anti-immigrants people suggest? track down all the refugees, send them back, close the borders (is this even possible?) but then maybe they also shouldn't travel to these countries, for a summer vacation, or bring goods from them, for ex, or we goona just exploit their resources

they are not refugess, they are economic migrants

 

 

1. most of these people are fleeing wars for their lives and just want to find peace & prosperity. fuck the distinction between a refugee and an "economic migrant" in this situation.

2. some of the Muslims among them are pretty backwards, yes, and are in need of growing up & getting an education. that is the truth. however some of them do not have these problems. some aren't even Muslim. this is not even a Muslim/non-Muslim issue at its core, but I like how there's a vocal minority of irresponsible idiots on this forum who are pushing really hard to make it one.

3. there is some pertinent information for you to absorb in this link.

 

how do people like this end up on WATMM, seriously. never mind Europe being flooded with refugees, our more immediate concern is WATMM being flooded by sheltered autistic pseudointellectuals and self-indulgent time-wasting essayists. it wasn't this bad a few years ago. #closetheborders JR

 

I guess the good news is that nobody on here has their shit together enough to actually make it into a position where they're able to make decisions about this or have any real impact one way or the other, so we're all just chattin' shit, essentially. I imagine some people itt would have full-on meltdowns trying to assess the situation on the ground and do the right thing in the irl circumstances.

[Guest WNS000]

So what do you suggest, usagi, apart from insulting people with different opinions? How should Europe handle the situation?

[watmmisdead]

 

I dont know. Im in canada, and even with money in their pockets, there are fundamental difference between most musulman and westerners.

 

Women rights in most musulman countries is terrible.

Islam is in many ways fundamentally different then western culture where humanism, Human rights, equality of sex, freeedom of speech is a at least a goal.

 

Just ask any women teacher how they feel toward musulman men. All my family are teachers, and they complain more and more how musulman boy do not really respect women teacher.

animals, ok,

but what those anti-immigrants people suggest? track down all the refugees, send them back, close the borders (is this even possible?) but then maybe they also shouldn't travel to these countries, for a summer vacation, or bring goods from them, for ex, or we goona just exploit their resources

they are not refugess, they are economic migrants

 

 

1. most of these people are fleeing wars for their lives and just want to find peace & prosperity. fuck the distinction between a refugee and an "economic migrant" in this situation.

2. some of the Muslims among them are pretty backwards, yes, and are in need of growing up & getting an education. that is the truth. however some of them do not have these problems. some aren't even Muslim. this is not even a Muslim/non-Muslim issue at its core, but I like how there's a vocal minority of irresponsible idiots on this forum who are pushing really hard to make it one.

3. there is some pertinent information for you to absorb in this link.

 

 

1- seriously, just inform yourself. You sound like mr obvious, without actual grasp to how much problem europe has on their shoulders.To recommend to ''fuck the distinction'' is moronic to the highest degree.

most of them are not fleeing war at all. gets your facts straight. Most if not all rapist in the events discussed in this thread are musulman.

 

I dont have the time to argue with strangers about this, you think im a idiot, so be it!

 

What europe did, to open the gates, is absolute disaster. It was very poor logistic. I'm all for letting the families escaping war zone, but the fact is most of those immigrants are not at all in that situation.

[usagi]

the difference between you lot and everyone else on this issue is that you speak on this issue from the position of inherent contempt for people who are different to you, and are fundamentally unsympathetic to those who are trying to survive and find a better life. there more your poorly-disguised xenophobia on this issue goes unchalleneged, the worse the world will become for everyone else who's just trying to get along. it appears that we are entering that kind of time in the history of our species now more than ever before.

 

So what do you suggest, usagi, apart from insulting people with different opinions? How should Europe handle the situation?

 

I posted about how I think the criminal problem should be handled.

 

 

 

I dont know. Im in canada, and even with money in their pockets, there are fundamental difference between most musulman and westerners.

 

Women rights in most musulman countries is terrible.

Islam is in many ways fundamentally different then western culture where humanism, Human rights, equality of sex, freeedom of speech is a at least a goal.

 

Just ask any women teacher how they feel toward musulman men. All my family are teachers, and they complain more and more how musulman boy do not really respect women teacher.

animals, ok,

but what those anti-immigrants people suggest? track down all the refugees, send them back, close the borders (is this even possible?) but then maybe they also shouldn't travel to these countries, for a summer vacation, or bring goods from them, for ex, or we goona just exploit their resources

they are not refugess, they are economic migrants

 

 

1. most of these people are fleeing wars for their lives and just want to find peace & prosperity. fuck the distinction between a refugee and an "economic migrant" in this situation.

2. some of the Muslims among them are pretty backwards, yes, and are in need of growing up & getting an education. that is the truth. however some of them do not have these problems. some aren't even Muslim. this is not even a Muslim/non-Muslim issue at its core, but I like how there's a vocal minority of irresponsible idiots on this forum who are pushing really hard to make it one.

3. there is some pertinent information for you to absorb in this link.

 

 

1- seriously, just inform yourself. You sound like mr obvious, without actual grasp to how much problem europe has on their shoulders.To recommend to ''fuck the distinction'' is moronic to the highest degree.

most of them are not fleeing war at all. gets your facts straight. Most if not all rapist in the events discussed in this thread are musulman.

 

I dont have the time to argue with strangers about this, you think im a idiot, so be it!

 

What europe did, to open the gates, is absolute disaster. It was very poor logistic. I'm all for letting the families escaping war zone, but the fact is most of those immigrants are not at all in that situation.

 

 

yeah yeah yeah. take your wisdom elsewhere, Dalai Wanka.

[doublename]

Musulman is new to me. Thanks, blud.

[Guest WNS000]

 

So what do you suggest, usagi, apart from insulting people with different opinions? How should Europe handle the situation?

 

I posted about how I think the criminal problem should be handled.

 

Are you aware of the information that 80 - 90% of the immigrants are illiterate and with strong traditionalistic mentality? Do you see it as a fundamental obstacle in the process of integration of those people? How many generations will it take for most of them to integrate (let alone assimilate as that is not PC today) in your opinion?