2020 US Election

[may be rude]

i would say "social programs" is a better talking point than "socialism" and accomplishes the same purpose. 

i'm surprised to see joshuatx coming out against capitalism. seems like a sure-fire way to torpedo the goal of flipping texas and unseating the oil cartel. i would say capitalism needs adjustments (tax rates) but capitalism by definition means people being free to own their own businesses, and i just don't get how any argument can undermine the self-evident importance of that.

i consider russian propaganda to be effective more than a lot of people, and no one has been able to convince me that i'm wrong about that. so, naturally, i am inclined to wonder if putin's propagandists are working to

• subvert american values
• bolster support of the russian "system" (mafia government authoritarian state)

by using the tried and true talking points of marxism.

25 year old son of democratic congress member raskin committed suicide on new years eve. raskin is a noble fighter, he was out there standing up against trump's serious abuse of power, and abandonment of ally ukraine. his son's suicide note said something like please take care of the animals, each-other and the global poor. this sets off my spidey sense. a 25 year old son of a vocal house dem mentions the global poor in his brief suicide note? hm. 

i consider information warfare to be a significant presence in the information ecosystem and i suspect it feeds this topic. 

and of course problems exist, i'm not saying everything is fine. i just don't get the notion that capitalism can be discarded. adjustments are what makes sense to me.

Edited January 6, 2021 by very honest

[milkface]

1 hour ago, Braintree said:

If you want to harp on that then go dig up Marx and give him an ear full. How dare he focus on western countries because he's from western society.

Cause he wasn't a radlib with internet access, and besides he was a revolutionary, not a bourgeois election enthusiast like urself my friend.

7 minutes ago, very honest said:

 i would say capitalism needs adjustments (tax rates)

needs a hell of a lot more than just a few adjustments.

[may be rude]

7 minutes ago, milkface said:

13 minutes ago, very honest said:

 i would say capitalism needs adjustments (tax rates)

needs a hell of a lot more than just a few adjustments.

major, dramatic adjustments are what i support. i like warren's approach to wealth inequality and dark money in politics. 

in the 1950s tax rates on the rich were enourmous, like 90% for the richest segment. those rates have been continuously eroded. so there is that precedent for just taxing the fuck out of the super rich. 

it's also possible to address problems in campaign finance. but people need to continue to be engaged and participate. disengaging and allowing politics to languish is how they end up writing their own rules.

allowing the party that caters to the super rich to remain in power for so long has allowed them to stack the courts with conservative judges. this cannot be allowed to continue, if we want to really fix things. consider citizens united, it's effect on dark money, and the supreme court's authority over it.

Edited January 6, 2021 by very honest

[milkface]

Just now, very honest said:

major, dramatic adjustments are what i support. i like warren's approach to wealth inequality and dark money in politics. 

in the 1950s tax rates on the rich were enourmous, like 90% for the richest segment. those rates have been continuously eroded. so there is that precedent for just taxing the fuck out of the super rich. 

you're just looking at the tip of the iceberg here, you think that simply taxing the rich will solve all of our problems? how about the exploitation of south america and africa? what's the guarantee that this tax money will go towards progressive change and reform or will it just go in politicians pockets? what will stop wealthy countries that benefitted from hundreds of years of slavery and imperialism from constantly interfering with third world politics? france has assassinated 22 african leaders alone since 1963. all because of greed.

you're hating the player and not the game unfortunately.

[Alcofribas]

the detective arrives at the scene, pushing his way through the mass of on-lookers already assembled around the body. the beat cop holds up the yellow tape barrier and the dick ducks under, penetrating the threshold of the suicide. he walks around the body, taking it all in from every angle. he crouches down, dips the tip of his finger into a little liquid mixed with blood. he brings it to his nose, whiffs it. "hmm...american values..." rising abruptly he surveys the scene, scowling into the horizon into some unknown dark distance, pausing there like a stone, like a marble statue in a vaporwave image. "this is how you found him? just like this?" a beat cop nods and says, "clearly a suicide...there was a note." "a note? let me fucking see it? where is it?" the cop hands him an evidence bag with a single sheet of paper with a hand-written message. he rips open the bag, shoving the crumpled plastic into the cop's arms. he reads aloud, "...care about animals...take care of the poor...?" he looks aghast at the copper. "didn't you say this man was a life-long democrat?" "yes sir." "this was no suicide, this man left a message of compassion for the poor and for animal life. get me the chief, this is a murder investigation."

[may be rude]

2 minutes ago, milkface said:

you're just looking at the tip of the iceberg here, you think that simply taxing the rich will solve all of our problems?

no, i didn't say that. you commit a strawman. i mentioned tax rates as one adjustment, to illustrate that it's not necessary to discard capitalism. why would i think that that would fix everything? of course there are many issues that need to be addressed in various ways

4 minutes ago, milkface said:

how about the exploitation of south america and africa? what's the guarantee that this tax money will go towards progressive change and reform or will it just go in politicians pockets?

yeah i mean there are a lot of complex problems that need to be solved and i'm not going to solve them all for you because you prompted me to in a watmm thread. my point is that talking against capitalism is the wrong framing.

5 minutes ago, milkface said:

what will stop wealthy countries that benefitted from hundreds of years of slavery and imperialism from constantly interfering with third world politics? france has assassinated 22 african leaders alone since 1963. all because of greed.

yeah i mean it's a messy world and i'm not defending it but this is not a cogent argument against capitalism, which is just the right to own your business.

6 minutes ago, milkface said:

you're hating the player and not the game unfortunately.

dude i'm just trying to correct people who are framing the problem as being about capitalism, when it's incredibly more nuanced than that, and this approach serves only one purpose: helping putin

3 minutes ago, Alcofribas said:

the detective arrives at the scene, pushing his way through the mass of on-lookers already assembled around the body. the beat cop holds up the yellow tape barrier and the dick ducks under, penetrating the threshold of the suicide. he walks around the body, taking it all in from every angle. he crouches down, dips the tip of his finger into a little liquid mixed with blood. he brings it to his nose, whiffs it. "hmm...american values..." rising abruptly he surveys the scene, scowling into the horizon into some unknown dark distance, pausing there like a stone, like a marble statue in a vaporwave image. "this is how you found him? just like this?" a beat cop nods and says, "clearly a suicide...there was a note." "a note? let me fucking see it? where is it?" the cop hands him an evidence bag with a single sheet of paper with a hand-written message. he rips open the bag, shoving the crumpled plastic into the cop's arms. he reads aloud, "...care about animals...take care of the poor...?" he looks aghast at the copper. "didn't you say this man was a life-long democrat?" "yes sir." "this was no suicide, this man left a message of compassion for the poor and for animal life. get me the chief, this is a murder investigation."

i stated that i was speculating. i think you should take seriously the point i was trying to make. the fbi and the senate intel committee have amply demonstrated that putin is going all out with proganda against americans. you think you haven't seen it?

[milkface]

4 minutes ago, very honest said:

yeah i mean it's a messy world and i'm not defending it but this is not a cogent argument against capitalism, which is just the right to own your business.

dude i'm just trying to correct people who are framing the problem as being about capitalism, when it's incredibly more nuanced than that, and this approach serves only one purpose: helping putin

hahah yeah putin is communist, and my dad is the pope.

and i think it does to be perfectly honest, capitalism encourages and rewards this behaviour because it only functions when exploiting other people. it is physically impossible for every country to be a first world country. you're bringing up capitalism's definition but neglect to see what it leads to. i doubt when capitalism emerged that people envisioned huge multinational companies outsourcing labour and subverting elections/ organising coups to ensure that third world countries don't nationalise their resources to stop themselves from being robbed in broad daylight...

Edited January 6, 2021 by milkface

[Braintree]

21 minutes ago, milkface said:

Cause he wasn't a radlib with internet access, and besides he was a revolutionary, not a bourgeois election enthusiast like urself my friend.

needs a hell of a lot more than just a few adjustments.

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were a moron. I'll leave you to it to prattle on about nothing.

7 hours ago, Cryptowen said:

Yeah, again to reiterate I don't consider myself an adherent of any fixed ideology. Usually when people ask me for my political orientation my answer is either "I'm still looking into it" or "on which topic?". I'm definitely not a Communist lol, and for every person in the greater field of Marxism who seems to be doing interesting analysis there's probably a few hundred who seem to have mostly gotten onboard because they like the logo

I was using the general 'you.' I didn't mean Cryptowen in particular.

[milkface]

Just now, Braintree said:

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were a moron. I'll leave you to it to prattle on about nothing.

dude you're supposed to insult me back. arguing politics with middle aged blokes is boring as hell

[may be rude]

2 minutes ago, milkface said:

hahah yeah putin is communist, and my dad is the pope.

if you continue strawmanning me i'll stop responding. i said his government is a mafia authoritarian government, and that he simply uses marxism as propaganda

3 minutes ago, milkface said:

capitalism encourages and rewards this behaviour because it only functions when exploiting other people.

logically incorrect. capitalism also functions by allowing people to own their own business

3 minutes ago, milkface said:

it is physically impossible for every country to be a first world country.

actually it is. technological advancement has brought us to the point where it is perfectly possible for there to be plenty for all. sorting out our systems through incrememntal improvements is the way to arrive at that.

4 minutes ago, milkface said:

you're bringing up capitalism's definition but neglect to see what it leads to.

i could also argue that apples lead to all the problems of the world. the convenient simplification is not an accurate description of the situation

5 minutes ago, milkface said:

i doubt when capitalism emerged that people envisioned huge multinational companies outsourcing labour.

outsourcing labor is not always bad, neither are huge or multinational companies. but i can guess at the problems you are referring to, and i will say they can be addressed without tossing capitalism, which i think makes no sense.

[milkface]

1 minute ago, very honest said:

if you continue strawmanning me i'll stop responding. i said his government is a mafia authoritarian government, and that he simply uses marxism as propaganda

anti-american sentiment isn't marxism

[may be rude]

Just now, milkface said:

anti-american sentiment isn't marxism

again, not what i said

 

i'm curious, milkface. where have you been getting influenced on this subject? can you please let me know where you have been reading about this kind of thing?

[milkface]

Just now, very honest said:

again, not what i said

 

i'm curious, milkface. where have you been getting influenced on this subject? can you please let me know where you have been reading about this kind of thing?

old copies of the sun that came with my toyota mr2

[Rubin Farr]

 

[Braintree]

Warnock won.

Warnock makes history with Senate win as Dems near majority

https://apnews.com/article/georgia-senate-election-day-voting-85d4caf2e38b5cc3cc21bdd4a6691d6d

[Rubin Farr]

[dingformung]

42 minutes ago, very honest said:

[Putin's] government is a mafia authoritarian government, and ... he simply uses marxism as propaganda

Do you have an example that you can link where Putin or anyone associated with Putin actually tries to push Marxism with anything they say?

[dingformung]

57 minutes ago, very honest said:

i'm curious, milkface. where have you been getting influenced on this subject? can you please let me know where you have been reading about this kind of thing?

He was indoctrinated by Russian spies.

[dcom]

Contemporary Russia - and Putin - is not Marxist, let alone communist. There are stalwarts in the population who are, but the country is not. There are remnants and an occasional whiff in the pompous military events and decorative proceedings, but otherwise - no.

[dcom]

7 minutes ago, dingformung said:

He was indoctrinated by Russian spies.

Indoctrinated? I'd rather say educated, as an 15-odd year active member of the KGB. That's where he made the connections, built rapport and collected leverage to get where he is now. He's got dirt on everybody.

Edited January 6, 2021 by dcom

[dingformung]

 

1 minute ago, dcom said:

Indoctrinated? I'd rather say educated, as an 15-odd year active member of the KGB. That's where he made the connections, built rapport and collected leverage to get where he is now.

Yes, Putin was - in East Germany - but I was referring to milkface. He is a Russian spy

 

5 minutes ago, dcom said:

Contemporary Russia - and Putin - is not Marxist, let alone communist. There are stalwarts in the population who are, but the country is not. There are remnants and an occasional whiff in the pompous military events and decorative proceedings, but otherwise - no.

This should be common knowledge but when talking to Americans you never know. They are often not very knowledgable

[ignatius]

putin is definitely not a marxist. anyone who's read anything about his life and history of grift and grabs for power knows this. for a cursory look at his life and who he is there are numerous books and documentaries. 

there's quite good background info in this Frontline Episode. if you're outside USA you might need to run a vpn or just torrent it. 

https://www.pbs.org/video/frontline-putins-way/

if you want to read about him.. this book is thorough. 

https://www.powells.com/book/man-without-a-face-the-unlikely-rise-of-vladimir-putin-9781594486517

1 hour ago, milkface said:

old copies of the sun that came with my toyota mr2

in the 90s i found out that mr2 was their nomenclature for "mid engine rear drive 2 seater". 

 

[dcom]

26 minutes ago, dingformung said:

This should be common knowledge but when talking to Americans you never know. They are often not very knowledgable

My parents used to be hard-core communists in the 1970s, and that was reflected in a lot of things in my youth: my first foreign language in school was Russian, and up until early teens I was a member of the Finnish Pioneer movement - the Soviet Russia version of Boy Scouts, but with bright green shirts and red scarves, morning and evening flag saluting, studying the little red book etc. alongside other scout-y things; thus I have a very intense personal relationship with Socialist-Communist-Russian things for real, not in the superficially ignorant hyperbolic way e.g. most Americans think of them. I was literally being indoctrinated, but as soon as I reoriented enough brain cells I quit - but it still left a permanent mark in my psyche. When most people talk about Marxism, Socialism, Communism or even Russia, they don't know jack. I do.

But I digress, carry on.

Edited January 6, 2021 by dcom

[may be rude]

19 minutes ago, dingformung said:

Do you have an example that you can link where Putin or anyone associated with Putin actually tries to push Marxism with anything they say?

having a harder time finding them being known to push marxist stuff but i was able to find well-documented cases of their supporting anti-capitalist messaging. i would note that the alternative to capitalism is commonly considered socialism, of which marx seems to be one of the leading champions. i won't pretend to be an expert but this is what i'm gathering.

 

https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Pillars-of-Russia’s-Disinformation-and-Propaganda-Ecosystem_08-04-20.pdf

Quote

The Strategic Culture Foundation (SCF) online journal is a prime example of long-standing Russian tactics to
conceal direct state involvement in disinformation and propaganda outlets, and to cultivate local voices to
serve as surrogate messengers. SCF finds obscure Western fringe thinkers and conspiracy theorists and
gives their typically virulent anti-Western and anti-U.S. views a broad international platform. It does this
while giving the misleading impression SCF is independent and unaffiliated with the Russian government. 

This approach has several advantages for Russia:
• it gives increased circulation to what would otherwise be fringe voices that suit Russian propaganda
goals;
• Russia deflects responsibility by obscuring its sponsorship of the site; and
• the individuals and conspiracy theorists they publish communicate in local idioms and understand their
home audiences well.

...

By comparison, on that same day only three non-Russian authors, including Finian Cunningham
and Pepe Escobar, had articles published on SCF homepage. Five years later, the English version of
SCF’s online journal has undergone a transformation. On the current SCF homepage, the Russian
authors have disappeared—replaced by Westerners, although Cunningham and Escobar still remain.13
Finian Cunningham, who is originally from Belfast and has a background in agricultural chemistry,
is the second-most prolific author for SCF, publishing more than 550 articles since 2012.14 In one SCF
article, he refers to the United States as a “lawless rogue state.”15 His other SCF articles include:
• Give North Korea some respect16
• Putin Stands Out as a Real World Leader17
• Washington Choreographing All-Out War with Russia?18
• The Year US-led Capitalism Became Exposed as Root of Global Conflict.19

...

Geopolitica.ru
Geopolitica.ru serves as a platform for Russian
ultra-nationalists to spread disinformation
and propaganda targeting Western and other
audiences. Inspired by the Eurasianist ideology of
the Russian philosopher and Eurasian imperialist
Alexander Dugin, Geopolitica.ru views itself as
caught in a perpetual information war against
the Western ideals of democracy and liberalism.
The website’s cooperation with other outlets in
Russia’s disinformation and propaganda ecosystem
broadens the reach of its messaging, which seeks
to destabilize and weaken Western institutions.

...

A sample of recent Geopolitica.ru articles on COVID-19 illustrates the false claims that it attempts
to spread. They demonize the United States, promote anti-vaccine messaging, sow fear, and portray
Europe as if it is in a state of collapse.

“Bill Gates, vaccinations, microchips, and patent 060606” promotes a conspiracy theory attacking Bill
Gates and the Microsoft Corporation for an alleged plot to control humans by inserting microchips
into their bodies. The article suggests a possible link between the Microsoft’s patent number
WO/2020/060606 and the “number of the beast” from the “Book of Revelation.”211
• “Russia and the coronavirus” asserts that Western media spread disinformation about the number of
COVID-19 related deaths in Russia and suggests that “one of the reasons why COVID-19 mortality rates
are very low in Russia is that many Russians do not get flu vaccinations imported from the West.”212
• “New Malthusianism and the misanthrope dynasties” falsely claims that the U.S. government and Bill
Gates aim to reduce the world’s population, also alleging that Gates helped create the Zika virus.213
• “The Coronavirus and hybrid warfare” speculates that COVID-19 is a part of a U.S. strategy “aimed at
undermining the economic growth of both China and other countries” or a “plot by transnational capital
against Donald Trump on the eve of the presidential election.”214
• “Former Putin’s aide: Coronavirus is the US biological weapon” quotes Sergey Glazyev, a member
of Katehon’s supervisory board member, an associate of Dugin, and a former advisor to President
Putin, as claiming that the COVID-19 virus is a U.S. biological weapon targeting “mostly people of the
yellow race” and blaming Great Britain for provoking Hitler at the outbreak of World War II.215
• “Pandemic in the service of globalization”– blames the EU/Atlanticist/Globalist powers for intentionally
inflating the threat posed by the COVID-19 pandemic to “deepen the automation of society” for the
benefit of “corporate capitalism” and the “world government.”216

 

 

 

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR2200/RR2237/RAND_RR2237.pdf

Quote

In the “far abroad,” Russian disinformation seeks to erode trust
in institutions. Neil MacFarquhar argued that Russia paints a picture
that European government officials are American puppets unable to
confront terrorism and the immigration crises (MacFarquhar, 2016).
Weisburd, Watts, and Berger divided Russia’s aims with propaganda
in the “far abroad” into four categories: political, financial, social, and
conspiracy. First, they argued that Russian political content aims “to
tarnish democratic leaders or undermine institutions” through “allegations of voter fraud, election rigging, and political corruption.” Second,
the Kremlin’s financial messages erode “citizen and investor confidence
in foreign markets,” positing “the failure of capitalist economies” by
“[s]toking fears over the national debt, attacking institutions such as
the Federal Reserve,” and attempting to “discredit Western financial
experts and business leaders.”

 

 

in other news, the senate was just evacuated in the middle of the certification of the election, as a result of the capitol building getting forcibly stormed by trump/disinfo-directed nutters

[dcom]