SAW II turns 30

[exitonly]

2 hours ago, logboy said:

i've read in an interview somewhere, along the lines of having ruined or changed some of (what he described as) his best work in order to make SAW 2. the sense i got from it was that warp wanted / suggested a second volume, and the way the tracks were created was to take ideas / recordings already in existence and pair them down to make them ambient.

the soundcloud dump has at least one SAWII track with drums under it. listening to it, it was obvious the drums were in there originally and then removed for the ambient version 

[auxien]

9 minutes ago, exitonly said:

2 hours ago, logboy said:

i've read in an interview somewhere, along the lines of having ruined or changed some of (what he described as) his best work in order to make SAW 2. the sense i got from it was that warp wanted / suggested a second volume, and the way the tracks were created was to take ideas / recordings already in existence and pair them down to make them ambient.

the soundcloud dump has at least one SAWII track with drums under it. listening to it, it was obvious the drums were in there originally and then removed for the ambient version 

hm, curious which track if you/anyone remembers?

it's weird that RDJ's definition of ambient changed so much in the span of a few years...SAW1 is just light/chill dance tracks basically, SAWII is a span of whole other melodic/tonal/haunting/experimental worlds punctuated with just a few percussive moments/pieces

[zkom]

58 minutes ago, exitonly said:

the soundcloud dump has at least one SAWII track with drums under it. listening to it, it was obvious the drums were in there originally and then removed for the ambient version 

26 Mixes for Cash version of "radiator" with drums is also called "Original Mix" which always got me thinking if some of the other tracks on SAW2 had also drums.

[beerwolf]

3 hours ago, zkom said:

26 Mixes for Cash version of "radiator" with drums is also called "Original Mix" which always got me thinking if some of the other tracks on SAW2 had also drums.

Listened to that yesterday. One of my favourite Aphex cuts.

[Mattthegoone]

Sorry I didn't realise the question had been replied to already

Edited September 8 by Mattthegoone

[exitonly]

6 hours ago, auxien said:

hm, curious which track if you/anyone remembers?

 

[auxien]

5 hours ago, zkom said:

26 Mixes for Cash version of "radiator" with drums is also called "Original Mix" which always got me thinking if some of the other tracks on SAW2 had also drums.

don't think i've ever heard that, but not too keen on it. i think i can see what he was going for with it, the last bit with the drums getting hyped is decent, but overall it seemed undercooked (hence his ripping it apart for the SAWII version, good decision RDJ)

[exitonly]

8 minutes ago, auxien said:

don't think i've ever heard that, but not too keen on it. i think i can see what he was going for with it, the last bit with the drums getting hyped is decent, but overall it seemed undercooked (hence his ripping it apart for the SAWII version, good decision RDJ)

oh i didn’t realize this was on 26 mixes as well.

[Dragon]

for the record i don't have a problem with rhubarb orc being included on this new reissue, in fact i'm quite looking forward to it, i was sorta wishing we'd get more than two bonus tracks.

there's something very pleasing, even climatic, about the rhubarb orc track getting an official release. it says a lot about the legacy of this music and the journey that rdj has taken (through his live tours) since 1994. i can't wait to here what a fully mastered recording sounds like.

[shelly]

4 hours ago, Dragon said:

for the record i don't have a problem with rhubarb orc being included on this new reissue, in fact i'm quite looking forward to it, i was sorta wishing we'd get more than two bonus tracks.

there's something very pleasing, even climatic, about the rhubarb orc track getting an official release. it says a lot about the legacy of this music and the journey that rdj has taken (through his live tours) since 1994. i can't wait to here what a fully mastered recording sounds like.

I think i've said this here already but still; At the start i was questioning its inclusion especially over a track like Red calx [slo] but after actually sitting down and listening to the expanded edition a few times i think its inclusion makes sense. It sticks out like a sore thumb, yes, but it also serves as a pretty good reprise. I think of it as a breath of fresh air after the chaos that is SAW II, kind of like how Magic Window closes Geogaddi. Very nice.

[Satans Little Helper]

i hate to bring this discussion back to negative nancy territory here, but...

well, let me put it positively, I'd be interested to hear why he chose to release the 30th anniversary edition with these tracks. knowing there are a bunch more tracks which would definitely fit on there as well. and would also turn this anniversary release into a definitive document of similar tracks from that period. with only this one extra track, it's as if he is saying "this collection is dear to me and the only thing I'm willing to add is this track". to be honest, i find it hard to follow the logic of pushing out this special edition with the books, boxes, tapes and whatnot without also pushing out those other tracks. perhaps as digital only extra tracks - because of all the constraints of the various physical carriers that have to be taken into account.

could still happen of course. but it seems silly to have people buy this new edition without at least hinting some extra digital tracks might be added in the future. or better, being upfront about it. there's plenty people not buying because in terms of tracks it's basically the same album.

[xox]

nobody's stopping him from releasing saw 3

[logboy]

20 hours ago, auxien said:

it's weird that RDJ's definition of ambient changed so much in the span of a few years...SAW1 is just light/chill dance tracks basically, SAWII is a span of whole other melodic/tonal/haunting/experimental worlds punctuated with just a few percussive moments/pieces

i always taken it to be a matter of that album generally not having been ambient material at all. you'll never know the insights into each and every track, i'd guess.

the dramatic differences to SAW 85-82 that you mention also support this idea, as you wouldn't be able to alter the character of tracks that are that sparse without essentially doing something like ... removing the drums and making it beatless.

knocking one or two elements out, altering a tempo, will give enough of a fundamental change to get some kind of extra minimalism without as much structure being apparent. if you're trying to be ambient from the start, you're adding in what's necessary with a different aim and perspective, to not put in too much or to hold onto what's necessary.

the other stuff from SAW 2 is music of a different type altogether that's been disguised.

fwiw, the RDJ you see in those early publicity shot, outside the home garage or in the underpass (barbican?) and the likes ... and the first handful of EPs and couple of albums ... are the RDJ i bought into. the serious, austere, gifted young man. i can understand the desire to later emphasise the juvenile humour more, to almost humanise it all beyond cold electronics, but it's not as impressive or instinctively smart as silly, filthy names taking over and OTT videos, london crowd audience appeal, trappings of self-indulgence and everything else that just gets in the way of work that just flowed from him at one time.

[exitonly]

5 hours ago, Satans Little Helper said:

i hate to bring this discussion back to negative nancy territory here, but...

well, let me put it positively, I'd be interested to hear why he chose to release the 30th anniversary edition with these tracks. knowing there are a bunch more tracks which would definitely fit on there as well. and would also turn this anniversary release into a definitive document of similar tracks from that period. with only this one extra track, it's as if he is saying "this collection is dear to me and the only thing I'm willing to add is this track". to be honest, i find it hard to follow the logic of pushing out this special edition with the books, boxes, tapes and whatnot without also pushing out those other tracks. perhaps as digital only extra tracks - because of all the constraints of the various physical carriers that have to be taken into account.

could still happen of course. but it seems silly to have people buy this new edition without at least hinting some extra digital tracks might be added in the future. or better, being upfront about it. there's plenty people not buying because in terms of tracks it's basically the same album.

that box tho

[exitonly]

1 hour ago, logboy said:

SAW1 is just light/chill dance tracks basically,

 

1 hour ago, logboy said:

the dramatic differences to SAW 85-82 that you mentio

I always think of SAW 85-92 as ambient house tracks. a lot of early warp stuff was lumped into the ambient house genre. SAWII was closer to Eno-style ambient (obviously still a very different take on it). From what I’ve read, it seems like SAWII was pretty controversial at the time from people who just wanted more ambient house. I’m under the impression that “i care because you do” was titled as kind of a reaction to that. I could be totally wrong about that though

[zkom]

1 hour ago, exitonly said:

I always think of SAW 85-92 as ambient house tracks. a lot of early warp stuff was lumped into the ambient house genre. SAWII was closer to Eno-style ambient (obviously still a very different take on it). From what I’ve read, it seems like SAWII was pretty controversial at the time from people who just wanted more ambient house. I’m under the impression that “i care because you do” was titled as kind of a reaction to that. I could be totally wrong about that though

I have some vague memory of RDJ saying that he named the album "Selected Ambient Works" because he was taking the piss out of how ambient had become trendy and he himself hated the genre name. Also that it was inspired more by Jean-Michel Jarre than Brian Eno?

But yeah, SAW1 is more like an early prototype of ambient techno/house.

[exitonly]

1 hour ago, zkom said:

Brian Eno

calling it eno-esque is more my interpretation of the music than saying what RDJ is going for. even there i mean that it is closer to eno than The Orb or some other ambient house group. It doesn’t really strike me as in the same aethetic as the “new age” kind of ambient either which is kind of what i associate with jarre though i’ll admit i’m not that familiar. there seems to be a kind of school of ambient music that spun out of kraughtrock and isn’t really to my taste for the most part.  kind of the audio version of 80s computer art with reflective spheres and whatnot 

[Alcofribas]

18 hours ago, exitonly said:

 

damn it's been ages since i've heard DAT artifacts

[zkom]

22 minutes ago, exitonly said:

calling it eno-esque is more my interpretation of the music than saying what RDJ is going for. even there i mean that it is closer to eno than The Orb or some other ambient house group. It doesn’t really strike me as in the same aethetic as the “new age” kind of ambient either which is kind of what i associate with jarre though i’ll admit i’m not that familiar. there seems to be a kind of school of ambient music that spun out of kraughtrock and isn’t really to my taste for the most part.  kind of the audio version of 80s computer art with reflective spheres and whatnot 

Yes, lots of Jarre's stuff is way too bombastic or pompous or orchestral or whatever the word could be but there are occasional tracks like Oxygene part 6 that kind of have some similarities with SAW1. Like understated drums and dreamy wispy synths and a meandering composition. So if I'm just imagining someone trying to make something similar with cheap monosynths at home instead of a giant expensive modular system in a studio, I could imagine it could come out as something like SAW1.

 

[logboy]

3 hours ago, exitonly said:

 

I always think of SAW 85-92 as ambient house tracks. a lot of early warp stuff was lumped into the ambient house genre. SAWII was closer to Eno-style ambient (obviously still a very different take on it). From what I’ve read, it seems like SAWII was pretty controversial at the time from people who just wanted more ambient house. I’m under the impression that “i care because you do” was titled as kind of a reaction to that. I could be totally wrong about that though

i dont remember early warp being connected to house that widely, but i do remember mid to late eighties kids here were influenced by small pieces of both USA and italian house that they sometimes managed to get hold of. it circulated in certain circles.

electonica has always been more connected to chill out rooms of the rave scene back then, so the machines helping making it crossover, but the results mix everything into something original and very british.

i was there when both SAW 85-92 and SAW II came along. they were seen as vastly different, connected by name and tempo, which then is only general or slight. the underlying styles and character are not the same. it was slightly controversial but that's not necessarily the right or only word; it was more puzzling or disappointing, unexpected, something different that wasn't bad but not as clearly fresh - lots of electronica fans weren't as aware of the influences it drew from as much as they knew of rave and of things coming from that as offshoots.

[X4creek]

14 hours ago, shelly said:

kind of like how Magic Window closes Geogaddi.

its so funny to me the excuses people make for that """"""""""track"""""""""

pisses me off whenever i think about it. rest of Geogaddi is pretty good though

[exitonly]

8 hours ago, logboy said:

i dont remember early warp being connected to house that widely

provably mincing words here and i’ll freely admit this was likely a label somewhat retroactively applied but my understanding is that “ambient house” and house are very different things. Outside of terminology, I think we are talking about the same thing. If you look at this wikipedia article on ambient house, it’s exactly what you are describing. Downtempo chill out music from the early 90s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambient_house

[YEK]

I've always used the term ambient techno to group that early stuff

[J3FF3R00]

1 minute ago, YEK said:

I've always used the term ambient techno to group that early stuff

Me too. I was just about to post this…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambient_techno

[toaoaoad]

"Ambient house" is more appropriate, cause you're sitting around the house listening to it.