Autechre Sean talks on technology at The Simply Superior podcast

[sweepstakes]

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the "hax" and IDMness of it all, just sometimes it's nice to use tools that don't force you to make ridiculous compromises, that let you do whatever you want, however you want, as long as you're willing to put the work in. I would count Real Programming Languages as first and foremost among those tools, and I would certainly not count Max or Reaktor among those languages.

[oscillik]

yeah, we're definitely going to have to agree to disagree here.

[psn]

At whichever level of abstraction you choose to work with a computer there are compromises. Being "willing to put the work in", ie spending a lot of time to get simple things done, is a compromise you make when you use lower level languages. How many hours of programming does it take to write a MIDI sequencer in assembler? And would the software be portable? On the other hand, you could write a very efficient and small MIDI sequencer!

 

Anyway, from the podcast's discussion about encapsulation/object orientation it doesn't sound like Sean was programming synth patches or higher level languages.

[sweepstakes]

I'm not saying Max/MSP and Reaktor aren't handy for a lot of things. And yes, of course whatever you work with forces you to make compromises, whether those are of workflow or time or leveraging existing constructs. But when what you want to do is actually not possible within the environment, that's a problem. I probably chose the wrong tool for the job but when you say you're going to "program" something, you shouldn't have to worry about running into brick walls like that unless you're using some 8-bit microcontroller or something.

 

To me those environments are just super-advanced modular synths and have little to do with actual programming. It's a lot less frustrating to use them if I think of them this way. If you're used to programming with C or Java or whatever, and try to do things that are perfectly normal and pedestrian in these languages, it gets awkward to work with in a hurry.

[psn]

Anyway, "coding" is more specific than "programming". You can program your VCR.

[sweepstakes]

Haha yeah. As usual, semantics is the problem with discussing things using words.

[ascdi]

You can definitely interpolate in Reaktor, dude

 

??

 

If your complaint is that the smallest granular unit of time on the Reaktor main structure level is 1 sample, then fair enough. But they did add Reaktor core modules so you can execute as many "cycles" as you want inside the core and bounce them up one level every sample tick.

 

But it's silly to say that the granularity of timing that can be addressed out of the box is what makes a programming language "programming". I'm learning Haskell and there's all sorts of functional compiler magic in between me and the metal, does that mean Haskell isn't "programming"?

[Guest]

hm there's a reason most people call working with Max or PD "patching". I'd wager only a small percentage of Max users know how to write externals.

Max is created by programmers, most likely using programming languages which have efficient & low-level access to system resources like C/C++, with the goal in mind to enable users to create computational media without the programming.

 

Could you make a C compiler/debugger in Max? If yeah, that would be super unwieldy. If you want to pretend you're "programming" with Max, fine. But yeah, semantics..

[sweepstakes]

 

You can definitely interpolate in Reaktor, dude

 

Apparently not the way I was try to do it, reading and writing from a table... or do you know something I don't?

 

If your complaint is that the smallest granular unit of time on the Reaktor main structure level is 1 sample, then fair enough. But they did add Reaktor core modules so you can execute as many "cycles" as you want inside the core and bounce them up one level every sample tick.

 

I didn't think that's what those were for. I thought they were more a part of the mega-modular-synth paradigm I mentioned, and in that context were more like individual electrical components like resistors and capacitors than like actual code. I don't think the two can really be compared although when it comes to audio, they achieve the same end.

 

I vaguely remember that example where they compared a sub-patch with core modules to some C code and that was neat, but if I remember correctly they cleverly avoided use of for loops...

 

 

Could you make a C compiler/debugger in Max? If yeah, that would be super unwieldy. If you want to pretend you're "programming" with Max, fine. But yeah, semantics..

 

This was more my point. Not so much the sub-sample processing rates.

[perunamuusi]

the tomorrows world bit was fun

[ascdi]

Could you make a C compiler/debugger in Max? If yeah, that would be super unwieldy. If you want to pretend you're "programming" with Max, fine. But yeah, semantics..

 

This was more my point. Not so much the sub-sample processing rates.

 

I guess I don't see the point of this discussion other than a pissing contest between people who think they've figured out Tool X because there's one or two gotchas about how it works.

 

It's definitely true that complex logical "flow" is more unwieldy in patching environments, but how that conclusively makes them "lesser" than "real" programming is not clear to me. A lot of Cocoa programming involves graphically arranging workflows between interface elements in Xcode. Are you guys saying that if you're drawing arrows with a mouse and not typing programming words with a keyboard, you're not "programming"?

[oscillik]

I guess I don't see the point of this discussion other than a pissing contest between people who think they've figured out Tool X because there's one or two gotchas about how it works.

 

[sweepstakes]

Came for the pissing contest

Stayed to watch defense of Max & Reaktor's ability to perform any computing task.

 

brb patching writing programming Objective C compiler in Reaktor so I can write program iPhone apps via windoze MIDI

[oscillik]

Came for the pissing contest

Stayed to watch defense of Max & Reaktor's ability to perform any computing task.

 

brb patching writing programming Objective C compiler in Reaktor so I can write program iPhone apps via windoze MIDI

 

so are you now saying that one doesn't 'program' a synthesizer patch?

 

watmm_velociraptor.jpg

[sweepstakes]

I'm also saying one doesn't 'patch' pants with a hole in the knee

 

FUN WIT WORDS

[oscillik]

[sweepstakes]

lol I love that gif. wish I knew what it was from

[oscillik]

I dunno where it's from, but it's good

 

The earliest programming languages predate the invention of the computer, and were used to direct the behavior of machines such as Jacquard looms and player pianos.

 

programming languages

[sweepstakes]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_dispute

[oscillik]

diorganos is the best

[xox]

Anyway, from the podcast's discussion about encapsulation/object orientation it doesn't sound like Sean was programming synth patches or higher level languages.

 

Oh...OK!

I thought he said that encapsulation WITHIN Max 'patch' just ''to be presentable'' is stupid cause it keeps you from connecting things in unusual ways.

[ascdi]

It's funny because I always got the sense from Ae that they view all approaches, low- and high-tech, as equally valid, as long as the result is good. They will tinker with assembly language if necessary, but they will also just use a broken reverb tank because it sounds cool.

 

And yet... a "semantic" debate about what programming enviroment the cool kids use and what tools are "better" because theoretically it can do x with y without z'ing is exactly what has derailed this thread. Fellas strutting around in here because you learned some C one time: maybe go back and listen to the podcast again until you get it.

[xox]

http://en.wikipedia....emantic_dispute

 

Well..if you add non-native language processing to the equation...;)

[sweepstakes]

It's funny because I always got the sense from Ae that they view all approaches, low- and high-tech, as equally valid, as long as the result is good. They will tinker with assembly language if necessary, but they will also just use a broken reverb tank because it sounds cool.

 

Totally. This is exactly what I love about Autechre and I think it shines through in their music. Nothing is off-limits and everything has interesting features.

 

And yet... a "semantic" debate about what programming enviroment the cool kids use and what tools are "better" because theoretically it can do x with y without z'ing is exactly what has derailed this thread. Fellas strutting around in here because you learned some C one time: maybe go back and listen to the podcast again until you get it.

 

I haven't really learned C but I am a struttin' hipster (or is that different from a cool kid?) fella and I'm super insecure so I came here to talk about how I'm a Real Coder to prove how awesome I am. If it makes you feel better.

 

I maintain that Max isn't real programming environment although I'm sure they use it for tasks at which it excels and further I'm sure that they know what real programming is well enough that when they say "programming" I can be confident that they aren't referring to Max patching. But I guess that's an inflammatory/derailing thing to say? Even though you assuming things about me isn't. Anyway, on with the thread.

 

http://en.wikipedia....emantic_dispute

 

Well..if you add non-native language processing to the equation...;)

 

Yeah, that's tough. Sorry man. In this case I think "programming" is a difficult word to look at in this context because as shown here it has two meanings for people using computers to make electronic music. One is more like coding and the other is more like patching. I think Autechre have enough experience with both that they use it in the standard current meaning which is: coding. I haven't heard "programming" used seriously to describe synth patches or drum machine patterns since the 90s but that might be because I've lived in little old Spokane since 2001.

[ascdi]

I haven't really learned C but I am a struttin' hipster (or is that different from a cool kid?) fella and I'm super insecure so I came here to talk about how I'm a Real Coder to prove how awesome I am. If it makes you feel better.

 

Hahaha, sweepstakes I gotta say I like your style. This was funny. I think we understand each other. I maintain that "X is not a REAL Y" is kind of a lazy way to put down someone else's X. More interesting would be to talk about what actual minutae affect your decision to use tool X vs. tool Y. As you began to do earlier in the thread.