Saudi woman sentenced to 100 lashes and year in jail for being raped

[luke viia]

My first instinct is that those bastards need to be executed. But that wouldn't solve anything. How can anyone do this kind of thing, especially to their own daughter?

 

As a student of Franz Boas said, "Judgements are based on experience, and experience is interpreted by each individual in terms of his own enculturation."

 

Sorry hoodie.

[SR4]

Hoodie, I love ya, but that's not what the problem is. No one, and I mean no one in their right mind would condone such a heinous kind of murder. But cultural relativism is necessary, even if you might look at it like an evil; it is nonetheless a necessary evil.

 

And by that I follow up with what some of us were discussing in another thread: What should we (pro-feminist West) do about this? Should we intervene directly and demand that they stop doing this? International organizations already roundly condemn these acts of brutality, but when should the verbal condemnation end and direct physical intervention begin? Should we force the "other" to educate themselves in what is moral and right? Maybe; shit, lets play devil's advocate and say that maybe to an arguable extent it would even work.

 

But what other impressions does that leave on the public? Well, the most recognizable one is that a foreign culture forcibly overran our (im pretending im a Pakistani here) traditional values and religious beliefs. Imperialism, racism, etc. etc. leads to a backlash and a further "hardening" of the peoples' cultural values, as a domestic rebellion against what they see as the unstoppable white giant of the West.

 

Im not saying its right, and Im not saying its wrong for you to absolutely despise, as I do, the patriarchial systems that allow such acts of violence to take place. But what I am saying is that we have absolutely no choice but to view this pragmatically: it is our business as world citizens to condemn what the majority of us believe are immoral and unjust acts of violence, but is it our business as "non-Pakistanis" or whatever to take an active role in guiding a sovereign nation and people towards what we believe is right?

 

Most people would be immediately inclined to shout "Yes! Of course! Its common sense to want a world where women aren't beaten for minutiae in repressive societies!" But the real answer is always far, far more complex within a globalized society.

 

But

[Guest the anonymous forumite]

fill the blanks :

 

b.... h.. i. c.....

[eugene]

it's too easy to throw everything into "oh well, but it's their culture after all".

medical anthropology deals with this classic dillema very elegantly imo, first it doesn't fuck about with philosophizing suffering - it's very real and pretty much universal (though obviously the causes for it and ways in which it manifests differ) and most interestingly it seeks to work within a particular culture not against it. cultures are not static and two dimensional, there's an enormous amount of space to manuever within their "boundaries" to try to allevate different forms suffering.

[SR4]

it's too easy to throw everything into "oh well, but it's their culture after all".

medical anthropology deals with this classic dillema very elegantly imo, first it doesn't fuck about with philosophizing suffering - it's very real and pretty much universal (though obviously the causes for it and ways in which it manifests differ) and most interestingly it seeks to work within a particular culture not against it. cultures are not static and two dimensional, there's an enormous amount of space to manuever within their "boundaries" to try to allevate different forms suffering.

 

agreed, and there is plenty of evidence that there are shifts towards less extreme, more secular morality in many of these societies; in most of them that undercurrent has always existed, but repressed due to shifting Cold War alliances and "Islamic" governments as a crutch to protect themselves against a very real Western imperialism. What we need to continue is condemnation of these practices on a basic moral level without resorting to any sort of self-perceived moral hierarchy of societies.

[syd syside]

We can encourage those that immigrated from those cultures to the West to be more vocal and through an aggressive diplomatic policy along with law and justice re-examination of our own war crimes/immorals, lead by example. Protesting essentially and spreading awareness / putting support on those who are oppressed in those regions.

 

but is it our business as "non-Pakistanis" or whatever to take an active role in guiding a sovereign nation and people towards what we believe is right?

 

Absolutely

 

That's our responsibility as humans. Peacefully of course, but aggressively and effectively as can be.

 

Culture that oppresses a whole gender of people this badly should not be ignored because of some kind of greater need for culture. FUCK CULTURE, Culture is not your friend. It is backwards traditional bullshit that has nostalgic qualities that effectively keeps us repeating mistakes in time. We can and should understand culture however because then we will be able to form new cultural identities that take the best or most fitting aspects of different cultures to anew. So aesthetics should be maintained if desired by a society (non-imperialism), to help keep their individual identities but laws pertaining to oppression and evil such as this should be made aware and criticized. Those that become more humane will earn luxurious prizes and technology from the West as a token of gratitude, that serve to help all people within that region.

[SR4]

We can encourage those that immigrated from those cultures to the West to be more vocal and through an aggressive diplomatic policy along with law and justice re-examination of our own war crimes/immorals, lead by example. Protesting essentially and spreading awareness / putting support on those who are oppressed in those regions.

 

but is it our business as "non-Pakistanis" or whatever to take an active role in guiding a sovereign nation and people towards what we believe is right?

 

Absolutely

 

That's our responsibility as humans. Peacefully of course, but aggressively and effectively as can be.

 

Culture that oppresses a whole gender of people this badly should not be ignored because of some kind of greater need for culture. FUCK CULTURE, Culture is not your friend. It is backwards traditional bullshit that has nostalgic qualities that effectively keeps us repeating mistakes in time. We can and should understand culture however because then we will be able to form new cultural identities that take the best or most fitting aspects of different cultures to anew. So aesthetics should be maintained if desired by a society (non-imperialism), to help keep their individual identities but laws pertaining to oppression and evil such as this should be made aware and criticized. Those that become more humane will earn luxurious prizes and technology from the West as a token of gratitude, that serve to help all people within that region.

 

i think you misunderstood my statement. By active role, I mean something akin to putting up a trade embargo until a nation changes a social policy. Maybe you can argue its for a "greater good", but try justifying that to families who have had members starve to death or live in even more abject poverty than they were before the active role in moral arbitration.

 

I def. hear you on the moral lead by example thing, but again, easier said than done. Easy to preach the virtues of the Geneva Conference while having Guantanamo and who knows what other unauthorized centres of torture activities.

[colunga]

This is all just so sad and fucked up.

The only thing I can really do as an american is make fun of it.

 

that being said:

 

ILL KILL U IF U DONT BELIEVE LIKE I DO

[sergeantk]

ugh, this makes me sick to my stomach

[syd syside]

We can encourage those that immigrated from those cultures to the West to be more vocal and through an aggressive diplomatic policy along with law and justice re-examination of our own war crimes/immorals, lead by example. Protesting essentially and spreading awareness / putting support on those who are oppressed in those regions.

 

but is it our business as "non-Pakistanis" or whatever to take an active role in guiding a sovereign nation and people towards what we believe is right?

 

Absolutely

 

That's our responsibility as humans. Peacefully of course, but aggressively and effectively as can be.

 

Culture that oppresses a whole gender of people this badly should not be ignored because of some kind of greater need for culture. FUCK CULTURE, Culture is not your friend. It is backwards traditional bullshit that has nostalgic qualities that effectively keeps us repeating mistakes in time. We can and should understand culture however because then we will be able to form new cultural identities that take the best or most fitting aspects of different cultures to anew. So aesthetics should be maintained if desired by a society (non-imperialism), to help keep their individual identities but laws pertaining to oppression and evil such as this should be made aware and criticized. Those that become more humane will earn luxurious prizes and technology from the West as a token of gratitude, that serve to help all people within that region.

 

i think you misunderstood my statement. By active role, I mean something akin to putting up a trade embargo until a nation changes a social policy. Maybe you can argue its for a "greater good", but try justifying that to families who have had members starve to death or live in even more abject poverty than they were before the active role in moral arbitration.

 

I def. hear you on the moral lead by example thing, but again, easier said than done. Easy to preach the virtues of the Geneva Conference while having Guantanamo and who knows what other unauthorized centres of torture activities.

 

All I know is that it seems like when people speak out against stuff like this, it becomes a "wash" for many people because they argue that we shouldn't meddle with other people's right to their culture (wars, block trading etc). But that is never suggested in the first place and change can happen peacefully... country borders and culture are generally roadblocks towards unity. We need to be more conscious of this and speak out against it. I find people avoid this because they don't want to be seen as neo-conservative anti-muslim/war mongering. They surpress their freedom of speech for the sake of political correctness. Islam is bad, as is Christianity, and etc. This is my opinion of course, you are welcome to defend them as positives to you as an individual, fine... but as institutions they are archaic and harmful towards unification / peace.

[sheatheman]

It's no different than James Byrd's murder years ago. It's hate, evil. Just because it is intracultural or even intrafamilial doesn't make it different.

[syd syside]

Hate has roots tho?

 

Ignorance as well

 

Unless you think peaceful communication is futile I don't see the opposing point.

[awepittance]

$$$$ is the reason the US doesn't focus on human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia. Also probably why we minimized Saudi involvement in 9/11. Craig Unger makes a very convincing case as to why we have a hands off approach to Saudi Arabia in this book http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Bush,_House_of_Saud

[Salvatorin]

my wife and her friends getting their wobbly bits out on the weekends

LOL

[sheatheman]

Hate has roots tho?

 

Ignorance as well

 

Unless you think peaceful communication is futile I don't see the opposing point.

 

i wasn't really responding to you. i was just saying stuff

[Hoodie]

There is a Muslim woman in my chemistry class and it being chemistry, I tend to mentally wander because this shit has to be learned at home and not in class. I was looking at her hijab from behind and was thinking about how much the game is lost by hammering home the concept of modesty via concealment. I started to think about sexuality as steam filling up a balloon and all the different ways I poke holes in the balloon--casual YouPorn wanks, my wife and her friends getting their wobbly bits out on the weekends, Kate Upton on the cover of Cosmopolitan etc. It becomes routine but the value in that is a taming of the inevitably beastly male responses to female sexuality. Looking at her hijab and how quiet she always is, I can get panicky just imagining what it would be like to live in Saudi Arabia, Iran or Pakistan with this constant "I am 12 and what is this?" approach to women and sex. It's never any wonder to me that honor killings, stonings and the like are a matter of course over there because, while Freud was fucked on a number of fronts, my Austrian nigga hit the nail on the head concerning the deep perversion that comes from the blockade of sexual wellsprings.

 

lots of chicks that wear hijabs say that it's a cultural thing or a symbol of god's protection, but i can't help but think they must be judging women who wear shorts and tank tops. i've never seen a muslim woman with just a hijab. they wear the full get up--arms and legs totally covered (i.e. long sleeve jacks and pants), even if it's summer time in florida when it gets to be in the high 90s during the day. i don't see how *that* is also a religious symbol or whatever.

[lumpenprol]

I'm guessing this will lead to an inverse natural selection, where the only surviving Saudi women passing on their genes will be ugly as sin. All the hot ones will have been stoned or fried for giving or receiving looks.

[keltoi]

this kind of oppression isn't going to be stopped any time soon... much like the albino killings and witch hunts in africa, the assailants are shamed into action by centuries old beliefs. as with catholicism these cultures thrive on shame and really care what their neighbours think.

[Rubin Farr]

$$$$ is the reason the US doesn't focus on human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia. Also probably why we minimized Saudi involvement in 9/11. Craig Unger makes a very convincing case as to why we have a hands off approach to Saudi Arabia in this book http://en.wikipedia....,_House_of_Saud

very true, we also had a major Air Force base in Dhahran that was the staging grounds for Desert Shield & Desert Storm, but after 9/11 it was eventually relocated to command in Quatar. still, if you've ever seen the movie The Kingdom, you can get an idea of the covert relationship between the US and Saudi governments.

[Guest theSun]

$$$$ is the reason the US doesn't focus on human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia. Also probably why we minimized Saudi involvement in 9/11. Craig Unger makes a very convincing case as to why we have a hands off approach to Saudi Arabia in this book http://en.wikipedia....,_House_of_Saud

very true, we also had a major Air Force base in Dhahran that was the staging grounds for Desert Shield & Desert Storm, but after 9/11 it was eventually relocated to command in Quatar. still, if you've ever seen the movie The Kingdom, you can get an idea of the covert relationship between the US and Saudi governments.

 

$$$$ is the reason why the US does and doesn't do anything, really.

[lumpenprol]

if it was Japan, they'd do death by bukkake

[dr lopez]

I'm guessing this will lead to an inverse natural selection, where the only surviving Saudi women passing on their genes will be ugly as sin. All the hot ones will have been stoned or fried for giving or receiving looks.

if it was Japan, they'd do death by bukkake

 

[Guest Iain C]

Thank God nobody is ever made to suffer for being raped in the west.

 

PS, remember, this is the actions of the state and not a bunch of ill-educated Muslim rednecks. The state. That's why this happened - because states victimise, oppress and punish the innocent every day. It's not unique to the Muslim world. Nor is Saudi's ass-backwards medieval theocracy at all representative of mainstream Muslim thought.

[Guest Iain C]

pakistani parents savagely murder daughter for looking at boys...

 

http://www.dailymail...d-daughter.html

 

I'm not sure what relevance this has, either. Oh wait, they're Muslims. That is literally the ONLY thing these crimes have in common. The culture of Pakistan is so different from Saudi to be practically unrecognisable except on the most superficial levels.. And clearly no white westerner would ever harm their child.

 

Those parents are crazy. Their behaviour is not the norm, as Chaosmachine pointed out. The fact that so many here are willing to buy into this racist narrative is depressing, but not suprising any more.

[Guest Iain C]

lots of chicks that wear hijabs say that it's a cultural thing or a symbol of god's protection, but i can't help but think they must be judging women who wear shorts and tank tops. i've never seen a muslim woman with just a hijab. they wear the full get up--arms and legs totally covered (i.e. long sleeve jacks and pants), even if it's summer time in florida when it gets to be in the high 90s during the day. i don't see how *that* is also a religious symbol or whatever.

 

I don't think you know many Muslim women. I know a few (including relatives of my partner) who wear the hijab along with T-shirts or whatever. My partner's sister wears one sometimes, sometimes she doesn't bother. It's more of a subcultural/fashion thing with her - just another accessory. She's a young teenage girl I might add, so I suppose that goes with the territory. She's wearing what her friends wear.