Can you play cassettes?

[granty]

 

I wonder what it'd be like listening to artists  who deliberately produce their tracks to sound as though they're being played on a cassette anyway, on cassette? R Stevie Moore, Ariel Pink etc. A bit shit I'm guessing.

I guess it depends on at which point the "cassette-ness" has been applied

 

1991 seems to do it right, as the digital downloads seem to be cassette rips - the actual cassette versions sound great.

 

I do have a cassette release that sounds terrible, though.

 

 

Just thinking about artists like Tobacco - who recorded loads of his last album on a crap Tascam multitrack, according to this ep of Song Exploder. 

 

I'd be interested to know what the mastering guidelines are for tape too, as I've read loads about vinyl but not seen anything about cassette tape.

 

Looks like you sold a few tapes there, can't be that bad!!

[oscillik]

 

 

I wonder what it'd be like listening to artists  who deliberately produce their tracks to sound as though they're being played on a cassette anyway, on cassette? R Stevie Moore, Ariel Pink etc. A bit shit I'm guessing.

I guess it depends on at which point the "cassette-ness" has been applied

 

1991 seems to do it right, as the digital downloads seem to be cassette rips - the actual cassette versions sound great.

 

I do have a cassette release that sounds terrible, though.

 

 

Just thinking about artists like Tobacco - who recorded loads of his last album on a crap Tascam multitrack, according to this ep of Song Exploder. 

 

I'd be interested to know what the mastering guidelines are for tape too, as I've read loads about vinyl but not seen anything about cassette tape.

 

Looks like you sold a few tapes there, can't be that bad!!

 

Ohh I didn't mean that was me, I meant I have that release on cassette :p Was just really disappointed with the sound quality, it really is rather terrible.

 

I'm sure there's a few people on here who have some tips on mastering for tape, I know brisk definitely knows a thing or two (he's 36 on bandcamp)

[mcbpete]

One of the biggest tips is actually picking the right kind of tape. Some are just cheap material and thus there's nothing you can do no matter what the mixing/mastering chain. This man has the tips !

 

[granty]

I'm an instant fan of this guy, he should be on the telly!

[oscillik]

One of the biggest tips is actually picking the right kind of tape. Some are just cheap material and thus there's nothing you can do no matter what the mixing/mastering chain. This man has the tips !

 

Yeah techmoan's video is pretty good at breaking down the types!

 

Thing is though, with that Pavlovs Children tape, I think it's just a bad dub. All of my tapes are just bog standard ferric ones, and they all sound way better than this one.

[BCM]

i purchased Coppice Halifax's Plastic Acre on cassette recently and unfortunately it is recorded extremely badly.  like whoever recorded it hadn't got the faintest idea of how to record to cassette or sound levels - the whole album is riduculously quiet and like 70% hiss (the other 30% being the actual music) .  i liked the album immensely but if you're going to do a cassette release at least try and work out how to record it in halfway decent fashion. Also it's like a C90 cassette or something with 4 tracks on each side meaning you have to fast forward through a load of nothing in order to listen to the other side.  Disappointing.

Edited May 8, 2017 by BCM

[Amen Warrior]

I had a nice Technics deck but donated it to my dad after his packed up, now it's just the one in my car. I recently fixed my reel 2 reel machine so Ive got that for all my recording and dubbing needz

[joshuatxuk]

 

 

 

One of the biggest tips is actually picking the right kind of tape. Some are just cheap material and thus there's nothing you can do no matter what the mixing/mastering chain. This man has the tips !

 

Yeah techmoan's video is pretty good at breaking down the types!

 

Thing is though, with that Pavlovs Children tape, I think it's just a bad dub. All of my tapes are just bog standard ferric ones, and they all sound way better than this one.

 

 

Yeah I'd say most labels put tapes out on type I ferric - which BTW varies from sounding great ( for example Maxell and TDK C90s sound decent dubbed on a run of the mill dual deck) to ok on type 1 tapes that are cheap and intended for vocal (i.e. interviews, transcriptions, spoken word) only.

 

Type 1 probably make up 90% of tape releases and type II chrome make up the remainder. I rarely see Dolby used on tape releases except for a few like say, Bridgetown Records. You also see a lot of 80s and 90s era commercial tapes on type II - especially new age, jazz, ambient, and classical. Especially classical since it captured more frequencies and dynamics better. Audiophiles and studios master tapes are the only really the only type IV (metal) audience.

 

i purchased Coppice Halifax's Plastic Acre on cassette recently and unfortunately it is recorded extremely badly.  like whoever recorded it hadn't got the faintest idea of how to record to cassette or sound levels - the whole album is riduculously quiet and like 70% hiss (the other 30% being the actual music) .  i liked the album immensely but if you're going to do a cassette release at least try and work out how to record it in halfway decent fashion. Also it's like a C90 cassette or something with 4 tracks on each side meaning you have to fast forward through a load of nothing in order to listen to the other side.  Disappointing.

 

Yeah this happens with DIY releases a lot, so much so I've seen underground cassette collectors mention that they like digital downloads so they re-dub it themselves.

Edited May 9, 2017 by joshuatx

[joshuatxuk]

 

 

 

I wonder what it'd be like listening to artists  who deliberately produce their tracks to sound as though they're being played on a cassette anyway, on cassette? R Stevie Moore, Ariel Pink etc. A bit shit I'm guessing.

I guess it depends on at which point the "cassette-ness" has been applied

 

1991 seems to do it right, as the digital downloads seem to be cassette rips - the actual cassette versions sound great.

 

I do have a cassette release that sounds terrible, though.

 

 

Just thinking about artists like Tobacco - who recorded loads of his last album on a crap Tascam multitrack, according to this ep of Song Exploder. 

 

I'd be interested to know what the mastering guidelines are for tape too, as I've read loads about vinyl but not seen anything about cassette tape.

 

Looks like you sold a few tapes there, can't be that bad!!

 

Ohh I didn't mean that was me, I meant I have that release on cassette :p Was just really disappointed with the sound quality, it really is rather terrible.

 

I'm sure there's a few people on here who have some tips on mastering for tape, I know brisk definitely knows a thing or two (he's 36 on bandcamp)

 

 

I know only the basic one which is to set the loudest part of the recording in red / 0db with it hitting +1-3 db on the peaks. If it's higher quality tape type II or type IV you can push it in the red a lot more (+4-5 db). Too much creates distortion AKA tape saturation. For many this is a really nice effect of tape. 303 acid sounds even nicer recorded on tape in red (seen this mentioned before on here) BoC mentioned doing this on Tomorrow's Harvest for one of their sound stabs. Lot of shitty dubs aren't even close to the red which is why they sound so hissy. 

 

Other tip: clean your decks. Isopropyl alcohol (91% or more) on a q-tip on the tapehead and a demagniziting wand used every 20+ hours or so (this is arguable, some say it's needless, others say it's essential. It's probably more of a yearly or biannual maintenance regime ideally. It is agreed that recording a lot warrants it more than mere playback, since it wears on the tapehead a lot more, especially metal and chrome tape) Lot of hate for the crappy sound of tapes comes from the fact that few people knew you had to clean decks or bothered to clean them. A tape deck not cleaned and not demagnized just gets more and more muffled and iffy sound wise - if it's too dirty it will actually start stripping the ferric and chrome metal of the tape and fucking with the sound - which is why some tapes sound fucked up after a while (along with stiff wheels or stretched tape).

 

Also Dolby or other noise reduction like DBX or whatever the recorder has can be used for stuff with dynamic volume or lots of high frequency bits you want to try to preserve instead of lose to tape hiss. Low-end bass and mid-range usually sounds just fine on decent type 1 tape, in fact I've seen a lot of people say they prefer hip-hop on type 1 because the low-end is captured more than type II. Something a lot of people don't realize is Dolby only works if it's being used on a Dolby capable deck. A dolby tape in a non-dolby deck is technically not being played back as intended. Likewise dolby functions on deck aren't really working ideally on a tape without dolby noise reduction applied. That's why DBX and other noise reduction systems were not as common on commercial tapes beyond those making their own mixtapes and likewise why Dolby B was so much more common than Dolby C: the latter never really took off and wasn't as common on decks. In fact a tape sounds best played back in the deck it was recorded with.

 

As far as truly professional / hi-fi tips for recording, tapeop or tapeheads.net are great sources. The most easy way to get good sound is simply to record the peaks as they hit red, get decent type II tape, and a nice hi-fi deck like a Nakamichi or any good brand 3-head deck. There's a lot more nuanced stuff and other technical tweaking (bias controls, azimiuth adjusting, noise reduction tips, etc) to perfect it that is way above my head. All I know from friends who have done it with reel to reel or studio tape recorders is the idea is to find a sweet spot in terms of eliminating hiss, getting tape warmth, and avoiding too much distortion.

 

Besides picking shitty type 1 tapes a lot of labels, especially DIY punk, garage rock, or lofi rock ones I noticed, use high speed duplicators which produce pretty shoddy quality. I've often seen those running the label and those supporting such labels not caring about the sound at all. For them it's cheaper and faster than dubbing each tape on a proper deck or sending it to pros at NAC or some other duplication service. They're really more about putting out something besides a CDr to sell at their merch tables. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by joshuatx

[entropi]

It's not just some hipster decoration detail or investment you can post some pics about to show your instagram followers.

Well, today I think this is the main purpose...IMHO.

 

I hate the format, but I still have a doubledeck player and I used it twice last to rip an old audiobook from the 80's and to rip some cassette releases I got when I bought a CDR-release from a small label.

 

But I just don't get the trendy thing at all. I prefer the non-real time transfer speeds of the aif/wav and lossless formats. I got enough plastic stuff in my home already.

[joshuatxuk]

Still hands-down my favorite audio delivery/storage mechanism:

1. Charmingly cheesy & plasticky, without being fatally delicate (viz. vinyl)
2. Portable, but not too portable (pro tip: cassette Walkman is for rollerskating, CD Walkman is for rollerblading)
3. Easily manipulated & recycled
4. Cheap as hell
5. Ideal fidelity for 80s thrash metal, shoegaze, & pop (incidentally also the most abundant genres to be found in discount cassette bins)
6. I generally record all my own stuff onto cassette & only later record to digital (initially because of limitations of my shitty setup; later out of habit & simple fondness)
7. Only working part of my first car’s stereo system anyway
8. When they inevitably go bad, the results are awesome or hilarious instead of frustrating (again, viz. vinyl/CD/corrupt digitals)

I actually just scored a Technics RS-B18—along with an SA-200 & an SLD-5—for free last week!

 

The best thing about tape is how many variables there are: playback varies so much depending on the deck, tapes vary so much depending on the type and recording context, and perhaps most importantly there's so much music history and subculture significance attached to the format. It's less reliable than mp3 or CD by a lot, much less beloved in general than vinyl, less niche than minidisc or 8-track. There's nothing quite like it.

 

 

I wonder what it'd be like listening to artists  who deliberately produce their tracks to sound as though they're being played on a cassette anyway, on cassette? R Stevie Moore, Ariel Pink etc. A bit shit I'm guessing.

I guess it depends on at which point the "cassette-ness" has been applied

 

1991 seems to do it right, as the digital downloads seem to be cassette rips - the actual cassette versions sound great.

 

 

It can also just be a simple context thing - either a mood or ambience by playing something on tape instead of vinyl or digitally sounds better. Nostalgia could factor in as well. I love listening to REM on tape because that's how I heard it as a kid. Lot of people are they way with other genres and bands - d'n'n mixtapes, hip-hop chopped on screwed on tape, punk and indie rock mixes.

 

People forget too how much older music was inherently limited by the formats at the time (which is arguably why remastering is a needless cash grab in many cases). Motown studios used to test their master recordings by soundchecking them in car radios. A huge part of the mono versus stereo debate was whether the casual music listener could afford a stereo let alone appreciate the stereo mix at all. Cassettes weren't marketed as hi-fi (dolby, chrome type II, etc) until over a decade after they came out because no tape players could even play back the format in a hi-fi manner. Tapeheads weren't that precise in the 50s and 60s. So yeah there's something to be said about vintage audio systems being ideal for older music -.here's a good article about this idea. 

 

Some formats lend themselves to certain music in ways enhance their sound aesthetically. Old country music to me for example sounds perfect on old 8-track tapes or on old analog radios. Black metal and noise has been released on cassette perpetually in those scenes. Classical or soundscape stuff is ideal on CD or lossless digital. 

 

In terms of cassette releases for artists who use tape for their sound 1991 is a great example because like BoC or others mentioned (Tobacco) his stuff is very, very much shaped by tape distortion, wow and flutter, tape hiss, etc. 

 

Autechre actually answered my question about cassettes in the AAA that hit on this. They also mentioned something I think a lot of folks from their generation know firsthand but many no don't even think about: how much pop, indie, and underground music was all listened to from the late 70s through early 90s on mixtapes and all of their unpolished, unpredictable and raw sound from home dubbing.

 

"t's pretty clear that compact cassettes played an essential part in your early work.

 

I was wondering how you felt about the slow but steady revival of cassette tapes recently, both as a release format and as a recording aesthetic...do you find it interesting or intriguing or perhaps just a bit gimmicky?

 

Has digital technology completely superseded your interest in tape as a recording format...is it a ""good riddance"" sort of perspective for either of you?

 

I ask because many producers have used magnetic tape to very deliberately shape the sound of their work recently, or completely gone with lo-fi and cheap analog equipment to make their music:

 

Couple examples: [sEE VIDEO LINKS]

Do either of you return to analog or obsolete digital formats (DAT, old sequencers) very often anymore? Or is something you've moved on from?

 

Finally, any particularly beloved mixtapes or prerecorded cassettes in your collection, particularly from the 1980s when you both started making music?"

 

Rob "yeah i love VHS and tape, always will, it has remarkable tolerance towards clipping or other misuses.

 

but as far as using it as a crutch or to wave a flag or pose in a fashionable type stance, mbe if i wasn't there first time.

 

as for DAT as obsolete digital  format, it kills master tapes as it fails so badly that we won't go near it, no real need as the anomalies aren't as tasty as analog formats. old sequencers, yeah but problem is most don't work anymore, literally perishing as we speak most of them."

 

 

Sean "it's slightly gimmicky cos the thing with tapes wasn't buying originals it was they they let you make your own, either compilations, taping stuff off mates, off the radio (v important) or doing your own edits if you had a decent (non servo) pause button

the radio thing is what no one seems to get when they do retro music.  things just didn't sound anything like they do nowadays. everything was really brutally compressed and out of tune.  you can't learn a thing about how music sounded in the 80s by listening to digi re-releases

nah i love tape, it allows you to make things louder (peak normalisation) and it actually sounds nice to my ears anyway, i like hiss sometimes (it was like our generation's version of dither)

 

i still use tape sometimes but not for a while

last thing we did that used it heavily was 'all tomorrow's linoleum'

 

mostly old radio tapes tbh, lee browne and stu allan are the ones i have the most of"

 

[xox]

new techmoan about cassette field recorder

 

[Bechuga]

I just found one of those microcassette recorders I used to own, and it turns out it makes some weird Doppler sound when you spin it through the air and play the tape. Will have to try some BoC tunes through it.

[Echolalia]

Am now in receipt of a Tandberg A420 3 Head top loader. Got some of those Chrome transfers of Talk Talk earlier albums to try out.

[Echolalia]

Comes with free hose attachment for added wankiness. Yeeees.

[Candiru]

Phonographs are the next wave.

[Amen Warrior]

Wait till u see my wax cylinder collection

[Echolalia]

The thing is some of the cassette releases recently have been f***ing brilliant. I got the deck of an old fella in Nottingham. He also had a 4 track Tandberg deck hifi too which I contemplated for a second. 

 

[xox]

sometimes i doubt if cassettes are warm enough tbh.

 

phonographs, on the other hand, are the pure warmelicious bliss of warmly warm.

 

just look at that chocolate-brown tube! waaaaarm ...and the brass, and the wood... warmer than aslan

 

 

Edited July 30, 2017 by xox

[TubularCorporation]

 

 

 

 

I wonder what it'd be like listening to artists  who deliberately produce their tracks to sound as though they're being played on a cassette anyway, on cassette? R Stevie Moore, Ariel Pink etc. A bit shit I'm guessing.

I guess it depends on at which point the "cassette-ness" has been applied

 

1991 seems to do it right, as the digital downloads seem to be cassette rips - the actual cassette versions sound great.

 

I do have a cassette release that sounds terrible, though.

 

 

Just thinking about artists like Tobacco - who recorded loads of his last album on a crap Tascam multitrack, according to this ep of Song Exploder. 

 

I'd be interested to know what the mastering guidelines are for tape too, as I've read loads about vinyl but not seen anything about cassette tape.

 

Looks like you sold a few tapes there, can't be that bad!!

 

Ohh I didn't mean that was me, I meant I have that release on cassette :p Was just really disappointed with the sound quality, it really is rather terrible.

 

I'm sure there's a few people on here who have some tips on mastering for tape, I know brisk definitely knows a thing or two (he's 36 on bandcamp)

 

 

I know only the basic one which is to set the loudest part of the recording in red / 0db with it hitting +1-3 db on the peaks. If it's higher quality tape type II or type IV you can push it in the red a lot more (+4-5 db). Too much creates distortion AKA tape saturation. For many this is a really nice effect of tape. 303 acid sounds even nicer recorded on tape in red (seen this mentioned before on here) BoC mentioned doing this on Tomorrow's Harvest for one of their sound stabs. Lot of shitty dubs aren't even close to the red which is why they sound so hissy. 

 

 

Yes and no, depends on the deck, too, because you also have to consider the headroom of the signal path before the tape.  So if you're pushing it too hard you are also probably getting some transistor distortion (not necessarily a bad thing).  I've got a basic, early 90s two head Nakamichi (thanks, other people's trash!) that I forget the model number of and have packed right now since I'm moving in a few days, and it seems to like it when I average just below the red on the level meters and rarely hit the top. I use that on the odd occasion I do a small cassette release, but when I am recording to cassette as an effect I use my old portastudio from when I was a kid, and in that case I run it as hot as possible with the noise reduction off (because running things hot with noise reduction on doesn't work - you aren't pushing the tape itself harder you are just pushing the noise reduction's compressor harder, the output level from the noise reduction circuit to the tape is standardized and you will get better results by being conservative with your input levels in that case) because there's not a single part of that signal path that doesn't sound good when it distorts.  Sometimes I won't even record to tape, I'll just run stuff through it and drive the pres really hard for that specific kind of saturation it gets.

 

But yeah, as a general rule, don't record too hot when you use noise reduction, if you don't use noise reduction record as hot as you can before it starts to sound bad to your ear (which is totally subjective since I don't think any of us are going for "audiophile" here, and at any rate a good home dubbed cassette is always going to be better than a commercial cassette that was dubbed at about 20x speed in a high speed duplication machine - that's a reason why Nakamichi's short lived, well regarded line of audiophile cassette releases were dubbed in real time on one of their higher end commercial decks, for example).

[TubularCorporation]

The thing is some of the cassette releases recently have been f***ing brilliant. I got the deck of an old fella in Nottingham. He also had a 4 track Tandberg deck hifi too which I contemplated for a second. 

 

 

 

We had some of those Tandbergs at the record shop where I worked in the mid and late 2000s, they were pretty nice.  You could do some crude overdubs on them but IIRC there was no sel-sync so you had to monitor from the playback head while you recorded to the record head, and that meant in practice it was impossible to actually do anything in time.  But for weird experiments and ping pong tape echo it would be fantastic.

 

Downside is that joystick sort of mechanism used to select the different modes tended to freeze up.  But if it was working, yeah, see if you can contact him again and get it!

Phonographs are the next wave.

 

 

Honestly, I think VHS-only releases are due to tart popping up any day now.  I've had some ideas on the back burner for a couple of years, myself, and if I'm thinking of it then someone hipper than me must already be on it.

[TubularCorporation]

Wait till u see my wax cylinder collection

 

 

You joke but the last girl I dated just listened to old 78s on a gramophone. Knew how to service it and everything.

[Amen Warrior]

The thing is some of the cassette releases recently have been f***ing brilliant. I got the deck of an old fella in Nottingham. He also had a 4 track Tandberg deck hifi too which I contemplated for a second.

 

I have almost this exact r2r (mines a slightly older model). It's lush and a joy to use with that weird joystick. Proper satisfying mechanical clunk. Wasn't operational when I got it cos all the rubber inside had expired, but I diy replaced it all with plumbing gear which somehow worked :D

[purlieu]

Honestly, I think VHS-only releases are due to tart popping up any day now.  I've had some ideas on the back burner for a couple of years, myself, and if I'm thinking of it then someone hipper than me must already be on it.

 

https://www.discogs.com/search/?format_exact=VHS&decade=2010&layout=med

 

Really though, for all the 'what next, wax cylinders?' type jokes, the reason tapes are currently going through a revival is that wider circles eventually picked up on the fact that a lot of experimental labels, particularly in the noise scene, never stopped using tapes. Based on Discogs listings (which are by no means complete), even at the format's nadir there were nearly 4,000 new tape releases every year. 

 

Interestingly, there are almost as many cassette listings for the 2010s on Discogs now as there are from the 1980s (and the 80s have far, far more duplicates i.e. pressing variations for different countries and regions).

 

18,693 tapes listed as released last year alone.

[Zephyr_Nova]

I can, but I prefer not to since every system I have that plays cassettes sounds like ass.